Ethnic tension in Lithuania

[Winner]

I mean its silly enough to judge a country off what it did historically as an independent country, even sillier to judge its actions as an occupied country because at that point its not even its own will.

Pretty much, yeah.

Who cares for human suffering? I don't know. Maybe you don't care. I do.

It's funny you forgot to answer my most important question: what is your point?

Because there is a world of difference between just informing about the past and using it to push ultra-nationalist agenda.

 

[kramerfan86]

And remember folks total and utter ethnic cleansing isnt something to hold against a country, because you know they didnt split up families!

 

[Domen]

So wait, you seriously think its reasonable to judge the attitudes of an entire nation based upon what it did as a SSR? That's about as logical as suggesting what a country did as an occupied Nazi puppet state just PROVES they hate jews.

Are you seriously surprised that I adopted typical Western "Polish death camps" style of logic ???

This type of logic is nothing new in the USA or in Britain. I am just improving my East-Central logic to Western standards.

And remember folks total and utter ethnic cleansing isnt something to hold against a country, because you know they didnt split up families!

Over 50% of those folks in eastern regions of Germany voted for the Nazi party. Nazis had to be deported.

In this case collective responsibility was necessary because they voted collectively (over 50% were Nazi sympathizers):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

Check support for the Nazis in regions 1, 6, 5, 8 and 7 (i.e. regions from which later most of German Nazi population was deported):

Note: most of population from region 9 - Oppeln (Opole) - with less than 45% support for the Nazis, was not deported:

http://historum.com/european-histor...ry-years-ca-1300-ca-1900-a-7.html#post1802912

 

[Tee Kay]

Because there is a world of difference between just informing about the past and using it to push ultra-nationalist agenda.

Or informing about the past and informing about the past in an obnoxious manner, for that matter.

 

[kramerfan86]

oh so someone put a gun to Poland's head and made them annex a bunch of territory that, surprise!, had a bunch of Germans in it?

 

[Tee Kay]

oh so someone put a gun to Poland's head and made them annex a bunch of territory that, surprise!, had a bunch of Germans in it?

That's... not too far from the truth, actually.

 

[Domen]

so someone put a gun to Poland's head and made them annex a bunch of territory

You seem to think that Poles did not want that territory.

But they did want that territory. In a referendum in 1946 between 67.0% and 91.4% voted "Yes" when it comes to third question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_people's_referendum,_1946

1) Are you in favor of abolishing the Senate?

2) Do you want consolidation, in the future constitution of the economic system founded on agricultural reform and the nationalisation of basic national industries, including the preservation of the statutory rights of private enterprise?

3) Do you want consolidation of the western border of the Polish State on the Baltic, Oder river and Lusatian Neisse?

 

[kramerfan86]

That's... not too far from the truth, actually.

Even if they were forced to annex, by his argument your actions as a puppet government dont forgive you as a collective people. So if Lithuania are fascist ethnic cleansing jerks, Poland is an even bigger fascist ethnically cleansing jerk. (for the record i think neither are to blame for their actions under the Soviet yoke, but Im merely showing how hypocritical his nationalistic stance is)

 

[kramerfan86]

You seem to think that Poles did not want that territory.

But they did want that territory. In a referendum on 28.04.1946 between 67.0% and 91.4% voted "Yes" for third question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_people's_referendum,_1946

So Poles wanted to annex land then ethnically cleanse its residents... how exactly in your mind is this better than Lithuania exactly?

 

[Domen]

Poland is an even bigger fascist ethnically cleansing jerk.

If you take territory from the biggest fascist ethnically cleansing jerk possible (Germany), then you are also such a jerk?

I don't think so.

If you kill in self-defence someone who is trying to kill you, you are not a killer.

As I wrote above - over 50% of those deported Germans had voted for the Nazis in 1933 and supported the Nazis until Hitler's very suicide.

So basically among those deported majority were Nazis. They also happened to be German, but they were Nazis first and foremost.

So Poles wanted to annex land then ethnically cleanse its residents...

Where do you see question "4) Are you in favour of ethnic cleansing?". Because I don't see such a question in that referendum.

So Poles did not want to ethnically cleanse its residents. But well - ardent Nazis could not stay in Poland, and did not even want to stay.

 

[kramerfan86]

Yes, you are a jerk. Eye for an eye is an applicable system for geopolitics. Poland doesnt get some free pass for annexation and cleansings because the Germans were fans of annexings and cleansings, thats not how it works in proper society. personally, I dont hold it against Poland, but if we are going to play by your rules where everyone is to be judged by their historical actions even when under the thumb of other powers, then Poland should be judged harshly.

 

[Domen]

because the Germans were fans of annexings and cleansings

They were also fans of murdering. For example closest family of my paternal grandparents lost 4 people murdered by Germans (1 in Auschwitz, 1 in Piasnica, two died of emaciation shortly after returning from a concentration camp). And I have not yet checked the list of victims from maternal side of my family.

Each family in Poland had some losses. And not only Jewish families, also Christian. Jewish families were destroyed entirely, so most victims are forgotten.

 

[kramerfan86]

They were also fans of murdering. For example closest family of my paternal grandparents lost 4 people murdered by Germans (1 in Auschwitz, 1 in Piasnica, two died of emaciation shortly after returning from a concentration camp). And I have not yet checked the list of victims from maternal side of my family.

Each family in Poland had some losses. And not only Jewish families, also Christian. Jewish families were destroyed entirely, so most victims are forgotten.

And that's tragic, still doesnt justify eye for an eye on a massive geopolitical scale being a viable or justifiable policy.

 

[Domen]

It wasn't eye for eye. It was finger for head. Germany cut Poland's head, and Poland cut Germany's finger in revenge.

OK - maybe one entire arm, not just one finger.

War is brutal and everyone commited terrible crimes. Also Western Allies literally bombed German cities - full of civilians - into rabble.

My grandfather witnessed the bombing of Hamburg, for example. He was a forced labour worker in that area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II

I am quite sure that Western Allies were responsible for more German civilian deaths than Poles.

Instead of quarreling on who commited more crimes, we should do everything to prevent major wars in Europe in the future.

============================================

BTW - Winner asked why I started this thread. Obviously I am not saying that Vilnius should be given back to Poland.

I just want to say that rights of Polish minority in Lithuania should be respected by Lithuanian authorities. And their Polish heritage as well.

Polish minority in Lithuania enjoys nowhere near as many rights as Lithuanian and German minorities enjoy in modern Poland.

As for Polish people in Germany - they are not even recognized as a national minority there (unlike Sorbs, Frisians, etc.).

 

[kramerfan86]

Plenty of Germans died in the forced expulsion process, its closer to an eye for an eye than you are making it out to be and is certainly more heinous than anything Lithuania has done to the Poles.

 

[Domen]

Plenty of Germans died in the forced expulsion process

German figures of victims are exaggerated. Most of them died already during mass flights in 1944 - 1945, not during expulsions.

Moreover - Germans were expelled from entire Europe, not just from Poland. So obviously you cannot attribute all victims to Poland.

Expulsion of Germans from Yugoslavia (yes, there was German minority there) was for example many times more brutal than that from Poland.

 

[TheLastOne36]

And many Germans have ancestors who lived in what is present-day Poland. I guess the Germans need to re-invade Poland, to apply your way of thinking.

This whole nationalism-driven reminiscing over who did what to whom decades and centuries ago is UTTERLY POINTLESS. It's a WASTE OF TIME that is moreover completely DIVISIVE and creates stupid feelings in people which only make life worse. If you want to indulge in all that, fine, but don't do it in public. I can't even quantify how much better off Europe would be if all people stirring such sentiments just disappeared.

This exactly.

This reminds me of that silliness where the Polish politician suggested that Poland should have more vote weight in EU Council because if the Germans didn't kill millions of Poles in WWII then Poland's population would be equivalent to Spain/Italy/France.

 

[Domen]

This whole nationalism-driven reminiscing over who did what to whom decades and centuries ago is UTTERLY POINTLESS.

So why the Holocaust is still a frequently discussed topic ???

its closer to an eye for an eye than you are making it out to be

No. An eye for an eye would only be the implementation of Theodore N. Kaufman's Plan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_N._Kaufman

Few people were even seriously thinking about implementing it. So think again about the scale of your nation's crimes.

There was also Morgenthau's Plan - a bit less harsh than Kaufman's Plan, but still much worse for the Germans than post-war reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

And Morgenthau Plan was seriously considered by much more people than Kaufman's Plan. It was even briefly supported by US President!:

(...) At the 2nd Quebec Conference on 16.09.1944, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Henry Morgenthau, Jr. persuaded the initially very reluctant British Prime Minister Winston Churchill to agree to the plan, likely using a $6 billion Lend Lease agreement to do so.[9] Churchill chose however to narrow the scope of Morgenthau's proposal by drafting a new version of the memorandum, which ended up being the version signed by the two statesmen. (...)

Say thank you to Churchill that post-war Germany was not transformed into a farming-pastoralist country without any industry !!!

 

[Civ'ed]

So why the Holocaust is still a frequently discussed topic ???

Because the Holocaust was the systematic, industrialized killing of millions of people?

 

[Domen]

Exactly. And Germany was responsible for it.

And this is why Morgenthau's Plan and Kaufman's Plan were considered as drastic measures to prevent more of similar German crimes in the future.

Germans should be happy that neither of these two American plans was implemented.