Europe and Africa

Gelion said:
- Is the current state of Africa largely a fault of European colonisers?
Yes. The Europeans left too early and didn't reproduce enough to gain majority control of those lands.

- Was there any chance for Afircans to catch up on the technology/society gap and build something different that ew know today?
Not a chance. Liberia and Ethiopia, the two independent black states in the early 20th century, still practiced slavery. Haile Selassie didn't abolish slavery until at least 1925. (Ethiopia had actually been denied entry into the League of Nations because of their continued practice of slavery.)

- What are in your view effects of European colonialism on Africa?
Positive in that we've given them so much as far as economic and social progress, but negative in the fact that they immediately demanded equality with the whites without any merit whatsoever.

Since the independence of those black African countries, only one (if you exclude South Africa) has not undergone a military coup or one-party rule, that country being Botswana.

Botswana's leadership, Sir Seretse Khama, was one of the few African leaders to blame all of his country's problems on the "white devil" and didn't believe that stealing their land and kicking them out was the solution to their problems. Believe it or not, it worked. :lol:
 
Gelion said:
I really want to hear an answer to this. Personaly I haven't made up my mind on the situation. So I ask:
- Is the current state of Africa largely a fault of European colonisers?

Yes. The colonisers, mostly accidentally but sometimes intentionally interrupted the natural development of African civilizations by promoting the slave trade and imposing their own way of life upon the locals.

- Was there any chance for Afircans to catch up on the technology/society gap and build something different that ew know today?

In the 1500s, before the frenzy of intertribal warfare that accompanied the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, West Africa was quite developed. Trade with the Islamic world also involves slavery :( but also benefit the Africans because the Muslims introduce a common religion, education, currency etc. Had the Africans been more sensible during the times of early European imperialism and fought back instead of enslaving and selling each other off to plantations of the Americas they may have a chance to catch up with the rest of the world.

- What are in your view effects of European colonialism on Africa?

Positive:
Europeans introduce modern way of life: medicine, general education, electricity etc.
Europeans opened up previously isolated corners of the continent to development.

Negative:
Much of the infrastructure in place were built to benefit European colonists. Europeans withdrew from Africa without making necessary arrangements to prepare people for independence.
Europeans had a large role in destroying traditional society and bonds. While this may have positive effects (eg eradication of human sacrifices, Africans are now more able to accept new ideas etc) in most cases it upset the balance of power in Africa and cause moral values to break down.
The colonial practise of grouping people of different ethnic groups together is responsible for much of the post-colonial conflicts.
 
Gelion said:
A debate was started in this thread, which was a bit offtopic. [http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189225&page=7, second half of page]
I want to invite it here.

I really want to hear an answer to this. Personaly I haven't made up my mind on the situation. So I ask:
- Is the current state of Africa largely a fault of European colonisers?
- Was there any chance for Afircans to catch up on the technology/society gap and build something different that ew know today?
and
- What are in your view effects of European colonialism on Africa?

I think people here have already explained that (I mean those who aren't arguing about European industrial revolution in the thread about Africa :crazyeye: ) to your satisfaction.

I think, that if Europeans didn't colonize Africa, it would be in quantitatively worse state than it is now. I think that some people just need to blame the West for everything wrong that happened on this planet.
 
CruddyLeper said:
The bankers and other blood sucking leeches should also forigive African debt as a 2nd step towards progress.

Don't blame the colonisers, blame the capitalists who bankrolled them.

And look where a lot of the Afrcans ended up - in the Americas.

Don't tell me the US never benefited from African poverty. That is a lie.

huh what? why is the U.S. getting blamed for this?
 
Winner said:
I think people here have already explained that (I mean those who aren't arguing about European industrial revolution in the thread about Africa :crazyeye: ) to your satisfaction.
There are more people on this forum. While I am satisfied with the responces, I'd like to hear what others have to say

I think, that if Europeans didn't colonize Africa, it would be in quantitatively worse state than it is now. I think that some people just need to blame the West for everything wrong that happened on this planet.
Thank you for your input. Alternatively I think some of the Westerners should accept the responsibility for the things they've actualy done.
 
I too believe we (ie Britain) left the colonies too soon – mostly through being kicked out rather than out of choice. Not that I blame them – they wanted their independence, and they wanted it now. How can you argue with that?

OTOH, if only Britain had remained in control of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Malawi and Zimbabwe (countries I know about first hand) for a few more decades, I have no doubt they would by now be thriving, relatively wealthy, stable, truly independent countries instead of the virtual basket-cases they are.

Even today though, we in the West are not helping matters. Bob Geldof said the other day that the reason Africa is in such a sorry state now is that 70% of their intellectuals are living outside of Africa.
Blame Africans themselves, as well as us for employing them.
One factoid I came across a few weeks ago to help support Geldof’s claim – Apparently there are more Malawian trained doctors living and working in Manchester (alone) than in the whole of Malawi. :eek:
I don’t know the accuracy of this claim but I do know our employing of doctors, nurses etc. from Africa is not helping them at all.
 
Mega Tsunami said:
One factoid I came across a few weeks ago to help support Geldof’s claim – Apparently there are more Malawian trained doctors living and working in Manchester (alone) than in the whole of Malawi. :eek:
I don’t know the accuracy of this claim but I do know our employing of doctors, nurses etc. from Africa is not helping them at all.

Very interesting stat MT. I guess the trouble is, however, the relative affluence of the two countries, and the fact that many individuals want to have greater wealth rather than making (possibly almost inconsequential) levels of improvement in their home country. Also, I doubt if any of us would suggest health care in the UK is in such a good position that we should be actively turning away qualified health professionals who want to come and work here.

It does feel somewhat vampirish, though, doesn't it ?
 
Yes Africa is largely in the condition it is in because of the Europeans. They destroyed the powerful local kingdoms and empires, sucked the continent with slaves, looted gold, and nataural resourses and ruled Africa for years upon years. Had European colonialisim not happened we would be seeing a much more developed and prosperous Africa as well as Asia.
 
Gelion said:
There are more people on this forum. While I am satisfied with the responces, I'd like to hear what others have to say


Thank you for your input. Alternatively I think some of the Westerners should accept the responsibility for the things they've actualy done.

I agree with Winner. And I do take responsibility for what I've done. I just refuse to take responsibility for things that my country didn't actually cause a long time before I (and anyone alive) was born.

If people want to blame Britain for the state of modern Africa, they haven't found a good argument yet. If they expect Britain to compensate for this perceived loss, then they not only need to show that actions of the country caused it, but that those actions were recent enough for both the offenders and the victims still to be alive.
 
ok...I'll bite....and appologize right now if any of this was meant fecicously

rmsharpe said:
Yes. The Europeans left too early and didn't reproduce enough to gain majority control of those lands.

:lol: Maybe Gelion's question should have read 'current state of africans'. I don't think more white people in africa would solve too many of thier problems ;)


Not a chance. Liberia and Ethiopia, the two independent black states in the early 20th century, still practiced slavery. Haile Selassie didn't abolish slavery until at least 1925. (Ethiopia had actually been denied entry into the League of Nations because of their continued practice of slavery.)

Is slavery really the only issue in terms of development?

Positive in that we've given them so much as far as economic and social progress, but negative in the fact that they immediately demanded equality with the whites without any merit whatsoever.

Good god, what year is it again? Has Nelson Mandela been freed yet? :crazyeye:

Since the independence of those black African countries, only one (if you exclude South Africa) has not undergone a military coup or one-party rule, that country being Botswana.

Botswana's leadership, Sir Seretse Khama, was one of the few African leaders to blame all of his country's problems on the "white devil" and didn't believe that stealing their land and kicking them out was the solution to their problems. Believe it or not, it worked. :lol:

I am a big fan of Botswana and thier positve moves forward, but I feel like I have to point out that they had a lot more going for them than just a healthy attitude. More than anything, i beleive the fact that tribal governments were incorporated into the management of the country allowed for some sense of continuity and legitimacy for the central government, bolstering stability and confidence in the new leaders when independence was acheived. The country is also largely homogeneous enthically (~80% tswana), making it more like a nation-state of europe rather than a random colonial region inhabited by many different people, so there was a lot smaller chance of civil conflict along tribal lines. Also, one should not ignore the great mineral wealth in the country; while this certainly hasn't helped out many other countries in the region, it did cement the good work already done to make a responsible government stable. Without it, it would likely not be so successful today...
 
Bright day
The Europeans wreaked a lot of havoc in Africa, no doubt about that. But we wreaked a lot of havoc in other parts of the world too. Most asian colonial possesion had GDP per capita of half of the sub-saharan Africa... after WW2. Yet from worse start they managed much much better.
 
I agree. Even though Europe did much to Africa and Asia, Africa didn't come out as far ahead as Asia has in the past fifty years. To blame Europe for what the colonial nations did in the past is fine for political posturing. To blame Europe for the current state of Africa is a bit of a stretch. Europe arbitrarily drew borders, lumping enemies and aliens together in the Middle East and Asia as well as Africa. Europe's and America's tarriffs apply to everybody more or less to everybody, even against eachother, yet look at the results around the world. "Oh no, Africa is stagnating because of the oppressive economic policies of the west! Ignore China, India, those Asian Tigers and any other successful economy that faces those exact same policies and costs of doing business..."

I would say Europe had a hand in setting up the situation from historical actions, but by no means gets most of the blame for the problems of Modern Africa. I would even venture to say that European markets would be gratified if Africa started witnessing a rennaisance, since they probably think like the American corporate leaders, that stronger foreign markets mean more profits, and hence a stronger domestic economy in the long run. A weak African economy just means little opportunity for honest profit in the region and you really can't turn it around from the outside no matter how hard you try.
 
Gladi said:
Bright day
The Europeans wreaked a lot of havoc in Africa, no doubt about that. But we wreaked a lot of havoc in other parts of the world too. Most asian colonial possesion had GDP per capita of half of the sub-saharan Africa... after WW2. Yet from worse start they managed much much better.


The difference between the two, IMHO, is that there was more sense of continuity and stability in asia than in africa. If you look at the states of asia, you'll see that most of them conform pretty well to a discrete ethnic and cultural group with similar values, traditions etc. If you take a further look at the more successful nations, I think you'll, find that in most of them, solid remnants of former societies were left in place and re-emerged after the european and japanese colonials left. Contrast this with sub-saharan africa and parts of the middle east, where countries were designed around geographic rather than cultural borders, and few legitimate leaders, governments, or societal structure were left behind
 
Che Guava said:
Contrast this with sub-saharan africa and parts of the middle east, where countries were designed around geographic rather than cultural borders, and few legitimate leaders, governments, or societal structure were left behind

I definitely agree. The Europeans destroyed a lot when they applied their own boundaries.
 
Che Guava said:
The difference between the two, IMHO, is that there was more sense of continuity and stability in asia than in africa. If you look at the states of asia, you'll see that most of them conform pretty well to a discrete ethnic and cultural group with similar values, traditions etc. If you take a further look at the more successful nations, I think you'll, find that in most of them, solid remnants of former societies were left in place and re-emerged after the european and japanese colonials left. Contrast this with sub-saharan africa and parts of the middle east, where countries were designed around geographic rather than cultural borders, and few legitimate leaders, governments, or societal structure were left behind

I disagree.

How do you explain the design of Indonesia? (Aceh, Timor, Papua, Bali... not very similar) Splitting India and Pakistan straight through Kashmir province and doing the same with East Pakistan/Myanmar), Putting the border of Afganistan and Pakistan right in the middle of the Pashtun to split them up, splitting India in two lumping nearly half the moslem population in India and the other half in Pakistan (though many did relocate after the partition), attempting to split Vietnam and Korea in half, aggregating Malaysia (only half the population is Malay), and so on. I guess China made out supporting the allies in the War, but they were never a full colony, only facing foreign occupation for awhile.

OK, I admit they did a great job with Laos and Cambodia, and they couldn't do much about Thailand, the Phillipenes and Sri Lanka, but other nations had to make do with fairly arbitrary borders.

Doesn't really sound too different from Africa to me.
 
Stolen Rutters said:
I disagree.

Splitting India and Pakistan straight through Kashmir province and doing the same with East Pakistan/Myanmar), Putting the border of Afganistan and Pakistan right in the middle of the Pashtun to split them up, splitting India in two lumping nearly half the moslem population in India and the other half in Pakistan (though many did relocate after the partition),

To be faire that whole India-pakistan-bengladesh thing was done by Indians, not Europeans.
 
To be faire that whole India-pakistan-bengladesh thing was done by Indians, not Europeans.

Yes damn Nehru and Jinnah for that.

And it was generally along religous lines, though it did split the Sikhs up in Punjab.
 
Sorry, I didn't read the thread, but I wrote the following on PM for someone. Whilst it doesn't cover all the issues which the OP asks about (and there will be those who disagree), it certainly touches on what I consider to be the more pressing ones (the legacy of slavery and the on-going Cold War struggles excluded).

----

There are many idiots on CFC who will tell you that the mention of the Colonial legacy in Africa is nothing but another case of 'the white man is responsible for all the ills in the world'. Those guys are not exactly in tune with Africa's woes. The colonial legacy reaches deep and far into Africa's problems with integrating into the global economy.

When powers like Britain, Belgium, France, Portugal etc pulled out of Africa in the post-WW2 wave of independence, they left infrastructure poorly lacking and the economies of these countries directed towards export (of materials such as rubber for their military uses in Europe's World Wars for example) but there was very little in the way of subsistence oriented economic models, meaning that land and technology was not being used for simple things like growing crops to feed the population. This was not the case in South East Asia. That's one massive difference which very much dictates both how African leaders can react to the global economy and market around them (go for export to find a niche in the world market, or try and feed the people?) and also how they play political games which devastate their countries yet further. This somewhat touches on why people like Mugabe are such bastards and why farming is such a political hot potato (read up on the work of Hernan De Soto for more on land rights in this context).

By 'infrastructure' I don't just mean roads, power stations, telephone lines etc. I also mean the instutions that allow a democratic form of government to work effectively; things like a free press, justice mechanisms, constitutional checks and balances, tertiary industries that create a middle class (typically service industries) and other such crucial socio-economic elements. In the absence of these infrastructure elements, it is very hard for an economy and government to meet the demands being made by the Washington Consensus, which pre-supposes the existence of all the above. The policies of the Washington Consensus that tend to dominate the IMF and World Bank are, to put it bluntly and metaphorcially, 'putting the cart before the horse'.

The reasons why the IMF and World Bank pursue these policies are not lost on someone like Stiglitz. It is very much in the (selfish) interests of the First World to have a middle class populated, democratic, low abiding Third World. Why? Cos those states tend to contain lots of consumers to sell our products to, tend to be safe investment havens for First World corporate interests and nevermind the more nation wrenching issues those African guys need to deal with when there's all that to consider. (Latin America is also subject to such problems, albeit in subtly different ways).

Alongside all of these issues is the ghoul of Africa's national borders. If you look into your history books, you will find that Otto Von Bismark held two conferences in Berlin round about 1888. Those saw Europeans deciding how they would split up Africa between them. It was quite simply agreed that whoever got there first could draw up borders in a distant map room and the rest would have to be happy with it, notwithstanding a little wrangling over it (a veritable 'finders keepers' policy). And crucially - not a single African nation was present at those conferences. So, Africa's current political boundaries were decided on the back of what was basically 'A Thieves Charter', drawn up in those distant map rooms, and not paying a single bit of notice to Africa's highly sensitive ethnic mix. You have groups with deep histories locked into nations together at someone else's bidding. This, along with the issues above and its vast resource and mineral potential, is why Africa is awash with conflict even today.

It's hard to be brief about all this!

----

Also.....

When I read about Americans whinging over high gas prices before the driving season, I simply couldn't give a damn, given that there are folk elsewhere in the world who cannot reasonably expect to be alive come the driving season, owing to disease, poverty and conflict mainly. Some might say that we are slushy, gushy, emotional folk who just love to have our hearts bleeding over someone less fortunate than us. But I'm of the view that poverty is a troublesome matter for world peace and stability and that means we need to take an interest, for our own good if nothing else. The recent Nobel Peace Prize winner is most interesting in this regard. We live in an increasingly interconnected world and Africa's problems are also our problems in so many ways. To take a more mercenary view of things, China can only be the world's cheap labour haven for so long. Soon enough, they will get too rich and lazy to provide us with cheap products. So, who is going to do it when that happens? South East Asia is commonly pointed to. But, at some point, Africa will have to step forward and play that role if we continue along these lines - and they are a million miles off being able to do so right now (David Ricardo's work is relevant here). There's another element to all of this. I consider myself to be a human being firstly, and a British citizen secondly. So I do care for other humans in distress, because I value the Declaration of Human Rights and all that jazz. In terms more suited to your environment and upbringing, one might say that I pledge allegiance to humanity before pledging allegiance to a flag.
 
rmsharpe said:
Positive in that we've given them so much as far as economic and social progress, but negative in the fact that they immediately demanded equality with the whites without any merit whatsoever.

You don't need merit to be deemed equal, you merely have to be human.

Speaking of merit, your entire post lacks any.

Winner said:
I think, that if Europeans didn't colonize Africa, it would be in quantitatively worse state than it is now.

If Europe never colonized Africa, somebody else would have stepped in and fill the power vacuum. I think a more sensible question would be: "What if nobody colonized Africa?"

Gelion said:
Thank you for your input. Alternatively I think some of the Westerners should accept the responsibility for the things they've actualy done.

I don't think any present-day Westeners are responsible for the state of Africa today. How can you take responsibility for something you didn't do?

Personally I think that Sub-Saharan Africa's isolation from the rest of the world had a much larger impact on its present-day woes than European colonization did.
 
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