Even if a fetus is not a person, abortion is still wrong.

[Homie]

And again, since skin cells are potential people (and therefore as human as an embryo), one wonders why there is no one trumpeting their rights.

Edit: Irish C., just so you know, I understand what you're trying to say.

No, they're not, unless you consider cloning an option. A fetus has a unique code, it is the genetic makeup of an individual, it is just really small still - and inside another person.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, sure, you'd have to nurture the skin cell to become a person - with a special bath of hormones and nutrients ... but you have to do that with a zygote, too, to make it into a 'person'.

If an embryo is a person, then a skin cell (of a certain type, mind you) is one too.

 

[.Shane.]

I think the original premise, as stated, is evidence that this forum needs a kiddie pool, that you must graduate from before being unleashed on the forums, proper.

 

[Homie]

Well, sure, you'd have to nurture the skin cell to become a person - with a special bath of hormones and nutrients ... but you have to do that with a zygote, too, to make it into a 'person'.

If an embryo is a person, then a skin cell (of a certain type, mind you) is one too.

Like I said, that would be a clone, UNLIKE an embryo that has a different genetic makeup than the skin cells on the mother's body. You very well know this I am sure, so how can you still hold to your argument?

 

[Homie]

I think the original premise, as stated, is evidence that this forum needs a kiddie pool, that you must graduate from before being unleashed on the forums, proper.

The original premise is flawed, but I wouldn't say immature.

 

[Katheryn]

What you guys are doing is focusing on the fetus.

Much of the anti-abortion movement is coming from the traumatized mothers. Women who feel they were pressured into having an abortion by their parents, their boyfriends, it is these women who do not want it to be so easy to be pressured into having an abortion. Women who feel that they were NOT told the truth by the abortionists.

Like the original Roe. She was sorry she had the abortion and is now an active anti-abortion crusader.

Have you ever had an abortion? Do you know how it feels to wonder the rest of your life? Well, women are emotional people... they do it!

 

[GenMarshall]

What you guys are doing is focusing on the fetus.

Much of the anti-abortion movement is coming from the traumatized mothers. Women who feel they were pressured into having an abortion by their parents, their boyfriends, it is these women who do not want it to be so easy to be pressured into having an abortion. Women who feel that they were NOT told the truth by the abortionists.

Like the original Roe. She was sorry she had the abortion and is now an active anti-abortion crusader.

Have you ever had an abortion? Do you know how it feels to wonder the rest of your life? Well, women are emotional people... they do it!

Ive also heard that a lot of women who have gone through an abortion later on would regret ever having the abortion and will suffer through depression related to a loss. Now they are marching with the Pro-life movement chanting "I regret my abortion". Also, they are not alone and their husbands also join in the movement .

 

[Katheryn]

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb on this, but that exact argument is simply dismissed by religious-right conservatives; they're the ones that still want selling of sex toys, consensual sadomasochistic activities, and assisted suicide to be illegal. "Not harming anyone but yourself" is as foreign a concept to them as "the government is not responsible for individual welfare" is to socialist liberals.

And you are wrong. The religious right conservatives want the sex toys, the sadomasochistic activites to be indulged at home, off the streets, away from the children. It is necessary to have sadomasochistic parades? Stores near schools? Must you influence our childrent that it is OK if we object?


It is the public flaunting, the recruitment, and the open pushing for social acceptance - (ie taking away time from RRRs to teach in public schools that it is normal alternative lifestyle) that bother conservatives.

And as far as 'not harming anyone but yourself' I have already addressed this. Girls are LIED TO about the affects this has on their mental health. It traumatizes them. They are rushed into doing an abortion when they don't understand the TRUTH of the risks, of the cost, and the actual procedure.

 

[Spartan117]

then there should be more funding on the education of abortions not necessarily the outlawing of abortions if that is indeed a problem, i would think.

 

[Katheryn]

Ive also heard that a lot of women who have gone through an abortion later on would regret ever having the abortion and will suffer through depression related to a loss. Now they are marching with the Pro-life movement chanting "I regret my abortion". Also, they are not alone and their husbands also join in the movement .

You are talking to one of them.

Yes, this is one of the byproducts of the sexual revolution that went bad on women. Women do NOT want to kill their children. They are lied to and then pressure to do so by those whom they trust. That is the majority of those fighting to get some sanity back into our culture.

The women's movement was supposed to HELP WOMEN, not make them a tool for abuse. It has gotten way backwards and women are PISSED!

The Women's movement has let women down bigtime and this is only ONE of the ways!

 

[Katheryn]

then there should be more funding on the education of abortions not necessarily the outlawing of abortions if that is indeed a problem, i would think.

Our schools are failing because we have so many things other than what kids need to learn at school.

We don't need another social/moral issue taught by government.

They can't read. They can't spell, do math, they don't know history, they can't type! They don't know literature, government, they don't understand science or know how to cook, or eat a balanced diet.

They know everything about sex, though!!

 

[Spartan117]

You are talking to one of them.

Yes, this is one of the byproducts of the sexual revolution that went bad on women. Women do NOT want to kill their children. They are lied to and then pressure to do so by those whom they trust. That is the majority of those fighting to get some sanity back into our culture.

The women's movement was supposed to HELP WOMEN, not make them a tool for abuse. It has gotten way backwards and women are PISSED!

The Women's movement has let women down bigtime and this is only ONE of the ways!

arent you generalizing a tad bit and attempting to speak for the every women?

in that case there are plenty of supporters(women too i might add) that are prochoice.

 

[Homie]

Katheryn, you bring other good points to the discussion, but abortion is wrong because it is murder, not because women feel bad about it afterwards.
No offense to you or your wife, I am glad you are taking the time to inform people.

 

[Spartan117]

Our schools are failing because we have so many things other than what kids need to learn at school.

We don't need another social/moral issue taught by government.

They can't read. They can't spell, do math, they don't know history, they can't type! They don't know literature, government, they don't understand science or know how to cook, or eat a balanced diet.

They know everything about sex, though!!

the topics covered in P.E. related to sex is related to sexual diseases, pregnancy, possible emotional trauma, sexual abuse, rape... i dont know about you but i think these topics should sort of be covered in school because not many parents either know about these topics in the details given or dont really communicate with their child.

i am not referring to the "moral issue" in abortion, precisely when i said being taught. i was thinking more along the lines of the process of abortions itself and some of the methods involved. for you said that WOMEN dont know what abortion really is or something similiar to that

new generation can type really good and fast at that. new generation spends plenty of time working with computers for social reasons and educational purposes.

what we do need however is moral issues taught by the neighborhood superhero, the church/pastor/reverend/some holy figure

maybe its not the content being taught in schools, maybe its the educational system itself that could use a little reworking. that being said, have you looked at the surveys of people who couldn't locate israel on a map of middle east

i assume you are also against stem cell research, the one that bush vetoed.

 

[El_Machinae]

Like I said, that would be a clone, UNLIKE an embryo that has a different genetic makeup than the skin cells on the mother's body. You very well know this I am sure, so how can you still hold to your argument?

Regardless of their source, the end product is still a person. A twin is a person, each cojoined twin is a person, a clone would be a person.

To call an embryo a person is foolish, because you'd then need to say that every living product of an embryo is a person (people don't) and you'd need to twist your definition to explain why a twin is not two people, but one person. Amazingly, as soon as a brain is involved, people can easily agree that something is a person. I mentioned the conjoined twin; funnily enough, most people only consider a twin to be a person if it develops a brain.

Calling a fetus a person is foolish, given that a fetus can become two people. So, it's a potential person. So is a skin cell. You can't have it both ways.
....

I think that the trauma of an abortion is evident (people can easily march and say "I regret having an abortion!"), and needs to be pre-emptively addressed in some fashion. However, there's a reason why you don't see people marching and saying "I wish I had an abortion!" ... and it has nothing to do with the fact that they never wished they had an abortion.

I agree that women who think of a fetus as a person should think twice about an abortion. It's hard on the soul to think of yourself as a murderer (if you have a conscience). OTOH, women who don't think that there is a person inside them will not have this moral crisis.

 

[Perfection]

Much of the anti-abortion movement is coming from the traumatized mothers. Women who feel they were pressured into having an abortion by their parents, their boyfriends, it is these women who do not want it to be so easy to be pressured into having an abortion.

Isn't that a problem with societal pressure not the availability of abortion?

Women who feel that they were NOT told the truth by the abortionists.

Can you be a little more specific? Which abortionists are not telling what truth? If such truths were told by doctors to patients would that not be sufficent?

The religious right conservatives want the sex toys, the sadomasochistic activites to be indulged at home

That's overgeneralizing. There are quite a few religious right conservatives who want to ban sex toys sales, in fact there are certain bans in place in southern states of the items.

Yes, this is one of the byproducts of the sexual revolution that went bad on women. Women do NOT want to kill their children.

That's a loaded term and an overgeneralization. Many women do want abortions.

And as far as 'not harming anyone but yourself' I have already addressed this. Girls are LIED TO about the affects this has on their mental health. It traumatizes them. They are rushed into doing an abortion when they don't understand the TRUTH of the risks, of the cost, and the actual procedure.

Could this not be solved by better procedures of telling the risks in the doctors office?

Our schools are failing

They are? That's news to me! Show some evidence!

They can't read. They can't spell, do math, they don't know history, they can't type! They don't know literature, government, they don't understand science or know how to cook, or eat a balanced diet

Can't they? I'd like to see som evidence of this educational decline.

Sounds like a lot of doomsaying without any actual evidence.

They know everything about sex, though!!

Show some evidence!

 

[El_Machinae]

Many women do want abortions.

My wife and I want three!
I think you mean "Many women want abortions to be legal"?

 

[Brighteye]

Much of the anti-abortion movement is coming from the traumatized mothers. Women who feel they were pressured into having an abortion by their parents, their boyfriends.

Have you ever had an abortion? Do you know how it feels to wonder the rest of your life? Well, women are emotional people... they do it!

Being emotional doesn't make things right. If you wonder about something doesn't mean you made the wrong decision.
Should boyfriends have no say in whether a girl has an abortion, given that it's half their child too, and they're going to be paying a lot of money to the girl, or else caring for the brat too? I think it's very reasonable for the man to 'put pressure' (have a say) on the subject.

 

[classical_hero]

And again, since skin cells are potential people (and therefore as human as an embryo), one wonders why there is no one trumpeting their rights.

Edit: Irish C., just so you know, I understand what you're trying to say.

Show me how skin cells can become a person. From what I know, they do not have all the genetic material to become human, thus that is why they are called skin cells since they have be differentiated into a specialist form of cells, where has an embryo has all the genetic material to become a baby and then a child, teenage and eventually become an adult. They are all stages of human growth and we cannot separate them from each other. You but an ebryo in the right environemtn, that being a womb, an it will grow into a a baby and eventually will need to come from out of the womb. I do find it ironic that in some cases that if you kill an unborn child, you can go to jail and in others you will not. Obviously this is a case of subjective justice.

I want pro abortonists to show that the embryo is not human.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Don't breath, you're killing bacteria and viruses. Don't eat, you're either killing a plant or an animal. Don't be alive because you'll end up killing something else, don't die because you'll be killing yourself.

It's rather egotistical to say that human life is more important than the life of another organism.