Perfection
The Great Head.
What's the simplest explanation for the existence of a higher power?
Existence of God (split from old thread)
- Thread starter MichaelP
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onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
There you go, there's an explanation for the universe. Done and done, and it's a lot simpler than your explanation, since it doesn't include God
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
Great. Now that you have discovered the answer, you can retire and rest on your laurels.
J
This is logical when applied to evolution but I doubt thats the process how the Absolute manifests. In fact it must be almost the opposite. By definition the Absolute must house everything inside it but how then the limited forms can come to existence? Its a paradox. The most likely answer is that the absolute can create out of itself its apparent opposite - Matter. Through some process of reversion or better perhaps through hiding its most potent natural form the Absolute achieves that the play of countless cosmic forces comes to being. But before the evolution the involution must have taken place. In this scenario then I think its easier to concieve of some relatively simple original reality although with boundless potential for manifestation.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Well isn't that sort of passing the buck? Puzzling existential questions such as "Why is there something rather than nothing?" seem to apply to either case.
It looks to me like God is less the answer and more a convenient place to stop asking questions. That's not to say you might not have other compelling reasons to believe in God, but this one seems rather weaksauce.
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onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
That is not passing the buck. That is recognition that there is more unknown than known.
Certainly you can stop asking questions. There is no indication that you should.
J
Perfection
The Great Head.
So what makes the Godly unknowns better than the Godless unknowns? I mean from an Occam's razor standpoint, I don't see the advantage for team God here.
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Probably by using the mechanism we observe in the universe. But that's not the reason why God isn't an explanation of the universe. What we reasonably can ask about the universe is: How? What we can also ask - but not get an answer to - is: Why? Unfortunately, 'Why did God create the universe?' doesn't answer anything either. If God did so, it merely replaces the 'Why universe?' with 'Why God?' And 'Why is there a God?' is exactly as unanswerable as 'Why is there a universe?'
In the end God is more unknown that the universe.
I think the difference is that team God is saying Reality is not created but naturally self-existent. What we observe as a conception and destruction within Nature are only a surface dynamics of boundless Reality.
While the other team seems to be suggesting that reality has a begining in limited phenomena and as such itsnt explainable except for by magic or giant leaps of logic which we will potentially be able to trace step by step in the future.
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Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Exactly. Introducing an unknown to explain an unknown creates a more complex unknown. Especially when God as an unknown parameter isn't needed nor brings any more clarity. It just obfuscates.
Nope, that's an unknown
Again, no, unknown.
No, simply by placing the label: unknown to it.
Science for instance doesn't say: the big bang is the way in which the Universe was created.
Indeed.
civver_764
Deity
Having taken many psychadelic drugs, I can sympathize with the OP. I have had some experiences where I undeniably could see "God". Many people have not had this realization, and many who have would object to calling it "God".
I think most religious debate gets caught up on the word "God", well I think you can also call it something like "the universe", "atman", "the self", "the laws of nature", "the dao" etc. People hear "God" and they think of the king-like, humanoid God of Abraham.
I guess what I'm saying is people who believe in God, and people who don't have different conceptions in their head of what "God" means. I hold the view that there does exist such a "spiritual experience" and many people (Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and Atheists alike) have had this experience. You can also see common themes throughout different religions that point to this same experience.
It's hard to talk about this without sounding like some new-age hippie, but people who have had this experience will know what I'm referring to. It's not really something you can put words to.
I think most religious debate gets caught up on the word "God", well I think you can also call it something like "the universe", "atman", "the self", "the laws of nature", "the dao" etc. People hear "God" and they think of the king-like, humanoid God of Abraham.
I guess what I'm saying is people who believe in God, and people who don't have different conceptions in their head of what "God" means. I hold the view that there does exist such a "spiritual experience" and many people (Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and Atheists alike) have had this experience. You can also see common themes throughout different religions that point to this same experience.
It's hard to talk about this without sounding like some new-age hippie, but people who have had this experience will know what I'm referring to. It's not really something you can put words to.
timtofly
One Day
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 9,445
Abraham did not conceive a humanoid God. I am surprised that those who deny that God exist would fabricate that excuse as the basis for their own argument.
God was never an excuse or reason for a mysterious beginning. The record claims that God did it on the basis that is what God claimed. Not because they needed to come up with some mysterious beginning. We claim today we have a better understanding, we even convince ourselves via projected theories sans experience. Yet we outright reject any and all experienced accounts that have been handed down to us.
God was never an excuse or reason for a mysterious beginning. The record claims that God did it on the basis that is what God claimed. Not because they needed to come up with some mysterious beginning. We claim today we have a better understanding, we even convince ourselves via projected theories sans experience. Yet we outright reject any and all experienced accounts that have been handed down to us.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
As those who do believe in a god reject all experienced accounts that have been handed down to us when it concerns an account that differs from their own perception of a god.
I content we are both atheists ...
I content we are both atheists ...
I'm fairly certain that's exactly what science says. All known facts point to it. In fact, science has already progressed to within fractures of seconds post-Big Bang. That, of course, doesn't mean there's some magic trick at 'the beginning', but science doesn't deal with magic. It deals instead with the known universe. (That still leaves room for plenty of speculation, of course.)
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
What science has done is calculate how a big bang scenario would be possible to within nano seconds of it occurring. But there are other hypothesis which are also mathematically possible.
Science says: The Big Bang is a possible way through which the Universe was created.
Aleksey_aka_al
Smiley
Hi, my name is Aleksey. I am an alc a white male atheist. And I am discriminated. Those believers are everywhere around. And they are convinced I am wrong. I can't argue too much, because if not social pressure, then the evil pro-belivers regime would punish me for blasphemy. This is a cry of despair!
I don't think that's correct. The Big Bang theory is a scientific theory; that doesn't mean it's 'just a theory' or ' a possible explanation', it means that to all practical purposes it is fact. (Until disproved, of course.)
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
Power that is Higher and exists. Believe it or that Higher power will punish us by letting Nickelback release another album.
Or you can read this fun sort-of-relevant comic.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
There is no higher power. Its all the same kind of infinite power manifested in different degree. Some animals have better vision then humans not because of some higher power but becouse the way they eyes are constitued. The degree to which capacity is manifested you can discriminate between higher and lower capacity/power/entity but its essentialy the same manifestation of an original infinite power.
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