Existing Buildings Discussion

[Snofru1]

I looked a little bit closer on some of the buildings mentioned above.

Furniture Factory:

When I can build it (before plastics) I get a gold malus of around 5 in each city. The problem is that the furniture workshop has a base gold of 7 then (4 initially plus 1 from guilds, machinery and invention) but the furniture factory starts with only 5. I think the furniture factory should also start with 7 gold as it should produce at least as much money as the workshop.

Leather Factory:

I typically get a hammer malus of about 40 in each city when I want to build it. The reason is that it removes the tannery which had hammer boni for salt and wax, plus 15% for land units. I see the point that leather becomes less important in modern times but it doesn´t look good if building a modern leather factory reduces the productivity of a city compared to an ancient tannery. Maybe the tannery shouldn´t have the hammer bonus to start with but instead the leather ressource gives the option to make a building like a handyman hut that has the hammer boni and becomes obsolete in industrial times. The tannery would then only give a small gold bonus plus the leather ressource.

Supermarket:

Market and Grocer each give a base +3 gold (although the sevopedia just says +1 gold) but the supermarket has only +4. Same thing for culture.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not understand the problem in math ...

Furniture Workshop

• +1
• +1 from Guilds
• +1 from Machinery
• +1 from Invention
• +1% from Prime Timber

Min Money = +1
Max Money = +4 + 1%

Furniture Factory

• +1
• +5
• +1 from Plastics
• +1 from Globalization
• +1 from 3D Modeling
• +1 from Rapid Prototyping
• +1% from Wood
• +1% from Bamboo
• +1% from Prime Timber
• +1 from Dye
• +5 Flammability
• +5 Per Turn Air Pollution

Min Money = +5
Max Money = +9 + 3%

Is the % messing things up?

Because even if you had +4 + 1% you would start out with +5 + 1% since you would still have Prime Timber. And chances are you would have Wood too, maybe even Bamboo.

 

[Snofru1]

I agree that the furniture facture should give at least the same gold, but it doesn´t (at least not in the hover text). And I do have Wood and Bamboo ressources, too!

What is confusing to me: In the buildings list in the city view the furniture workshop says:
+4 (although it´s only +1 in the Sevopedia)
+1% with Prime Timber
+1 with Guilds
+1 with Machinery
+1 with Invention

Do the +4 already include the boni from Guilds etc.? Or are they somehow magically counted twice? That would roughly fit to the -3.74 that the furniture factory hover indicates.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not sure. The other modders who control the money code would probably know.

 

[Snofru1]

The hover text of Aerodrome says it replaces Aerodrome [sic]. I guess it should instead replace the Airport and the Grand Aerodrome should replace the Aerodrome (which is not indicated).

 

[Johnny Canuck]

There is a bit of code (exe) that could be used to looks at all buildings and get the information you want but it is not documented fully. See here - I have updated the link in the Modders Guide also.

Thanks I've downloaded and I've got it to work - a very neat little tool!

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I've been taking a look at the buildings that store food, and would like to make a few suggested changes. First, these are the buildings that store growth:

		Stores	Tech Req		Obsoletes At		Notes
Icehouse	10%	Construction		Refrigeration
Storage Pit	10%	Gathering		Agricultural Eng.
Warehouse	10%	Chemistry		Planetary Economics
Granary		30%	Pottery			-			Replaces Storage Pit
Mod. Granary	50%	Agricultural Eng.	-			Replaces Granary and Storage Pit
Shaman Hut	25%	Shamanism		Democracy

Note: There are also two national wonders that store food, but I don't list them here

Put in chronological order, and assuming the buildings are constructed soon after discovery, it would result in the following total food storage percentage over time:

			Storage		Change
Early Prehistoric	10%		Build Storage Pit
Late Prehistoric	35%		Build Shaman Hut
Early Ancient		55%		Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical		65%		Build Icehouse
Mid Classical		40%		Shaman Hut Obsoletes
Early Renaissance	50%		Build Warehouse
Early Industrial	40%		Icehouse Obsoletes
Mid Industrial		60%		Mod. Granary Replaces Granary

To me, this progression doesn't make much sense. Why should peak food storage occur in the early Classical era, and why should it drop so much from mid Classical until the Renaissance/Industrial? I'd like to suggest the following tweaks, to 'even out' the progression a bit more:

1. Remove the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut. Even without the bonus, the Shaman Hut provides a lot of benefits that make it very much worth building - +1 Health, +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Gold, +1 Priest Slot.

2. Have the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and reduce the Icehouse food storage percentage to 5%.

This would give the following progression:

			Storage		Change
Early Prehistoric	10%		Build Storage Pit
Early Ancient		30%		Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical		35%		Build Icehouse
Early Renaissance	40%		Warehouse Replaces Icehouse
Mid Industrial		60%		Mod. Granary Replaces Granary

Any thoughts?

 

[Vokarya]

I've been taking a look at the buildings that store food, and would like to make a few suggested changes. First, these are the buildings that store growth:

		Stores	Tech Req		Obsoletes At		Notes
Icehouse	10%	Construction		Refrigeration
Storage Pit	10%	Gathering		Agricultural Eng.
Warehouse	10%	Chemistry		Planetary Economics
Granary		30%	Pottery			-			Replaces Storage Pit
Mod. Granary	50%	Agricultural Eng.	-			Replaces Granary and Storage Pit
Shaman Hut	25%	Shamanism		Democracy

Note: There are also two national wonders that store food, but I don't list them here

Put in chronological order, and assuming the buildings are constructed soon after discovery, it would result in the following total food storage percentage over time:

			Storage		Change
Early Prehistoric	10%		Build Storage Pit
Late Prehistoric	35%		Build Shaman Hut
Early Ancient		55%		Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical		65%		Build Icehouse
Mid Classical		40%		Shaman Hut Obsoletes
Early Renaissance	50%		Build Warehouse
Early Industrial	40%		Icehouse Obsoletes
Mid Industrial		60%		Mod. Granary Replaces Granary

To me, this progression doesn't make much sense. Why should peak food storage occur in the early Classical era, and why should it drop so much from mid Classical until the Renaissance/Industrial? I'd like to suggest the following tweaks, to 'even out' the progression a bit more:

1. Remove the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut. Even without the bonus, the Shaman Hut provides a lot of benefits that make it very much worth building - +1 Health, +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Gold, +1 Priest Slot.

2. Have the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and reduce the Icehouse food storage percentage to 5%.

This would give the following progression:

			Storage		Change
Early Prehistoric	10%		Build Storage Pit
Early Ancient		30%		Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical		35%		Build Icehouse
Early Renaissance	40%		Warehouse Replaces Icehouse
Mid Industrial		60%		Mod. Granary Replaces Granary

Any thoughts?

That looks okay to me. I agree with removing the food storage from Shaman Hut - I have never quite understood how that building fits in.

What should happen at Planetary Economics when the Warehouse goes obsolete? The Modern Granary never obsoletes. Should there be another building there to pick up the combination?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I like those ideas. Shaman's Hut was not my building and has been in the mod for a long time (maybe even RoM/AND). I would not mind changing it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Johnny Canuck I like your thinking.

I like those ideas. Shaman's Hut was not my building and has been in the mod for a long time (maybe even RoM/AND). I would not mind changing it.

Shaman's Hut is from the inclusion of Shamanism and rewriting of Shinto religion - early C2C. IE it was one of mine but has gone out of the religion area. I have no objections.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That looks like some really good thinking there to me. I think there's some other areas and building purpose lines that could use some similar analyses.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

What should happen at Planetary Economics when the Warehouse goes obsolete? The Modern Granary never obsoletes. Should there be another building there to pick up the combination?

Yeah, there should probably be some final building to follow the Warehouse, though I don't know what it would be. I presume something would be included as buildings are added for the future era?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Is someone going to volunteer to do this, or are we going to just say it is a good idea and assume someone else will. I can't, I am off on family stuff for a couple of weeks or so.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The Icehouse was developed for the polar regions to help cities founded there. It once upon a time had a limit on how far towards the equator it could be built from the polar/tundra regions on the map. It was not allowed to be built in the Equator region originally. But somewhere along the line it was allowed to be built anywhere.

If the restriction on Where it can be built was added back on then your list could still use it instead of eliminating it.

There are time I need the icehouse as much for it's +1 health as I do it's meager 10% food storage. Also cutting it down to 5% is too drastic, just like the Boat builders bldg (only 5% on trade, it's virtually worthless even early game).

Put the longitude restrictions back on Icehouse and it's only then available for polar/tundra cities. And would only impact them.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Icehouse was developed for the polar regions to help cities founded there. It once upon a time had a limit on how far towards the equator it could be built from the polar/tundra regions on the map. It was not allowed to be built in the Equator region originally. But somewhere along the line it was allowed to be built anywhere.

If the restriction on Where it can be built was added back on then your list could still use it instead of eliminating it.

There are time I need the icehouse as much for it's +1 health as I do it's meager 10% food storage. Also cutting it down to 5% is too drastic, just like the Boat builders bldg (only 5% on trade, it's virtually worthless even early game).

Put the longitude restrictions back on Icehouse and it's only then available for polar/tundra cities. And would only impact them.

JosEPh

There are two types of ice house, those that store ice for use in the other which is used to store foodstuffs. As I understood it the Ice house in C2C restricted because it was the former and the latter. the restriction though was to places which had snow in winter or mountainous regions. So not 0-30 degrees unless there were mountains (or gold) in the city vicinity. Gold because gold rush towns often imported ice. Actually the Persian empirors were known to in ancient/classical times. With the invention of the ice making machine ice could be made anywhere. then came electricity and later refrigeration.

So I would suggest Icehouse restricted to 35-90 degrees OR mountains OR gold in vicinity OR palace. At machinery remove all the limits

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Is someone going to volunteer to do this, or are we going to just say it is a good idea and assume someone else will. I can't, I am off on family stuff for a couple of weeks or so.

Hydromancerx has already done it SVN - rev. 2926 made the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and rev. 2927 removed the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut.

 

[Koshling]

There are two types of ice house, those that store ice for use in the other which is used to store foodstuffs. As I understood it the Ice house in C2C restricted because it was the former and the latter. the restriction though was to places which had snow in winter or mountainous regions. So not 0-30 degrees unless there were mountains (or gold) in the city vicinity. Gold because gold rush towns often imported ice. Actually the Persian empirors were known to in ancient/classical times. With the invention of the ice making machine ice could be made anywhere. then came electricity and later refrigeration.

So I would suggest Icehouse restricted to 35-90 degrees OR mountains OR gold in vicinity OR palace. At machinery remove all the limits

At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

The ice machine is a fairly simple machine. It does not use electricity. I have only seen a hand operated one with a wheel you turn for ages to get a block of ice out. perhaps machinery is a bit early but it should be before steam power.

 

[Koshling]

The ice machine is a fairly simple machine. It does not use electricity. I have only seen a hand operated one with a wheel you turn for ages to get a block of ice out. perhaps machinery is a bit early but it should be before steam power.

How about invention?

 

[Hydromancerx]

At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_(building)

And I believe its the machinery needed to build the ice house. Basically its a giant thermos to insulate the ice and snow from the outside world. One can store up ice and snow during the winter and have it for when its warm OR ship it from polar locations or high elevations (which was big business back in the day).