Explosion In London

[JoeM]

Just a summary for those not watching the news in the UK:

There were four explosions.

Rumours of other devices and explosions developed from the effects on several stations, and the controlled detonations the police forces carried out.

Three were on underground trains, one on a bus.

Conjecture:
A preliminary suggestion is that these were all carried out by a small number of terrorists at King's Cross Station. All three trains and the bus passed through King's Cross, and the timings match up to make this a possibility. It is also guessed that after placing the bombs (on the floor of) the underground trains he or they borded the bus and blew themselves up.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Hopefully they blew themselves up... I say so because if it is like Madrid they will not stop untill somebody kill or detain them. They surely want to be "martyrs". After Atocha bombings they continued planting bombs in the Madrid-Seville AVE line rails and were planning others inmediate terracts when police found them and they blowed themselves up. So better keep eyes open.

 

[chancellor_dan]

The latest development is that possibly all 3 of the train bombs went off at the same time.

 

[wit>trope]

Terrorism is just as less inherent in Islam. The Al-Qaeda ideology is most likely a result of colonial grievances mixed with the deep desire to rejuvinate the native civilization. Therefore, the use of religion (Islam) is a subset of the Al-Qaeda ideology, not the other way around.

On a side note, you seem to be painting the whole of Islam with the Wahabi brush. What does it matter to the rest of the religion's definition if a fanatical sect arose from within. Many sects are clearly non-fundamentalist, which suggests no inherent fanaticism. It implies Wahabism is rather the exception than the rule.

I don't think you got what I was saying. The IRA do not view themselves as motivated by their RELIGION and do not see themselves as engaging in a religious HOLY WAR (like a Crusade or Jihad). Al-Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups see themselves as motivated by their RELIGION and engaging in a RELIGIOUS HOLY WAR (they call this "Jihad"). What you did in your post was do a reductionist SOCIOLOGICAL analysis of how Islamic terrorists END UP doing what they do. Your analysis may be true or false but it doesn't change the fact that the Islamic terrorists, regardless of the sociological "root causes" of their terrorism, self-view themselves as engaging in ISLAMIC activity (i.e. JIHAD). This is not true of the IRA. They don't view themselves as engaging in CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS activity (i.e Crusade).

Wahabi Islam is not an exception. It is a MAJOR branch of Islam. First line of wikipedia says:

"Wahhabism (sometimes spelled Wahabbism or Wahabism) is a movement of Islam named after Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (1703–1792). It has become an object of increased interest because it is the major sect of the government and society of Saudi Arabia."

Note that word "MAJOR SECT" of the government and society of Saudi Arabia which was where a lot of the 9/11 terrorists came from and is where Osama Bin Laden came from. Now the last line of wikipedia:

"Many contend that Wahhabism is or has become a dominant form of Islam through proselytization driven by Saudi funding; others contend that its influence is less widespread and that the practice and observance of Wahhabism and the political manifestations that flow therefrom are more nuanced than its most doctrinaire interpretations."

So Wahhabism far from being an "exception" is according to experts a "DOMINANT form of Islam."

 

[delsully]

You misunderstand-I did not say Blair said it was. they were jsut two unrelated sentences.

Whew! I'm glad I misunderstood that.

 

[Azadre]

I don't think you got what I was saying. The IRA do not view themselves as motivated by their RELIGION and do not see themselves as engaging in a religious HOLY WAR (like a Crusade or Jihad). Al-Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups see themselves as motivated by their RELIGION and engaging in a RELIGIOUS HOLY WAR (they call this "Jihad"). What you did in your post was do a reductionist SOCIOLOGICAL analysis of how Islamic terrorists END UP doing what they do. Your analysis may be true or false but it doesn't change the fact that the Islamic terrorists, regardless of the sociological "root causes" of their terrorism, self-view themselves as engaging in ISLAMIC activity (i.e. JIHAD). This is not true of the IRA. They don't view themselves as engaging in CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS activity (i.e Crusade).

Wahabi Islam is not an exception. It is a MAJOR branch of Islam. First line of wikipedia says:

"Wahhabism (sometimes spelled Wahabbism or Wahabism) is a movement of Islam named after Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (1703–1792). It has become an object of increased interest because it is the major sect of the government and society of Saudi Arabia."

Note that word "MAJOR SECT" of the government and society of Saudi Arabia which was where a lot of the 9/11 terrorists came from and is where Osama Bin Laden came from. Now the last line of wikipedia:

"Many contend that Wahhabism is or has become a dominant form of Islam through proselytization driven by Saudi funding; others contend that its influence is less widespread and that the practice and observance of Wahhabism and the political manifestations that flow therefrom are more nuanced than its most doctrinaire interpretations."

So Wahhabism far from being an "exception" is according to experts a "DOMINANT form of Islam."

Wahabism is less than 1%, I hardly consider that a major sect. I wouldn't say Ku Klux Klan is a sect of your religion, but it has more followers than Wahabism.

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

well judaism is only like 1% of the world pop and its considered a major religion. just because theres not many people who follow somthing doesnt mean it wont have a large impact.

 

[Azadre]

well judaism is only like 1% of the world pop and its considered a major religion. just because theres not many people who follow somthing doesnt mean it wont have a large impact.

It's considered a major religion because it's one of the oldest and its root in the two major abrahamic faiths, not its size.

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

It's considered a major religion because it's one of the oldest and its root in the two major abrahamic faiths

true true.

 

[Damnyankee]

It's considered a major religion because it's one of the oldest and its root in the two major abrahamic faiths, not its size.

Very true, but Judaism being considered a major religion can be traced to the persecution of the religion over hundreds of years by Christians and ofcourse, due to the holocaust and the establishment of the nation of Israel. All these events drew attention towards it(Judaism). Hinduism and Buddism have never had such attention focused on it.

 

[wit>trope]

Wahabism is less than 1%, I hardly consider that a major sect. I wouldn't say Ku Klux Klan is a sect of your religion, but it has more followers than Wahabism.

Wikipedia spoke of it as a "MAJOR SECT" at least in Saudi Arabia and experts call it "dominant." KKK is NOT A RELIGION. KKK does not claim to be a religion. Wahabism IS a religion and Wahabis understand themselves to be a religion (branch of Islam) White supremacist/nationalist groups include people of a lot of different religions, including non-Christian religions.

 

[Azadre]

Wikipedia spoke of it as a "MAJOR SECT" at least in Saudi Arabia and experts call it "dominant." KKK is NOT A RELIGION. KKK does not claim to be a religion. Wahabism IS a religion and Wahabis understand themselves to be a religion (branch of Islam) White supremacist/nationalist groups include people of a lot of different religions, including non-Christian religions.

The last I knew, the KKK burned crosses out of spiritual expression. Sounds like a protestant sect. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and the rest are forbidden from membership. Wahabism is at best a cult started in the early 20th century in Saudi Arabia. It has no real pressence in Islam, and should not be considered a sect. There are two sects in Islam. The Sunni and the Shi'a.

 

[wit>trope]

The last I knew, the KKK burned crosses out of spiritual expression. Sounds like a protestant sect. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and the rest are forbidden from membership. Wahabism is at best a cult started in the early 20th century in Saudi Arabia. It has no real pressence in Islam, and should not be considered a sect. There are two sects in Islam. The Sunni and the Shi'a.

Um no it is not a religion. They don't consider themselves to be a religion. NO ONE considers them to be a religion except apparently YOU!! Wahabis are a sub-sect of the Sunnis but apparently they are a "dominant" sect and their religious views influence a lot of Islam.

Try going to a white supremacist/nationalist forum (I won't link one but you can google for one) and you'll find that people of LOTS OF DIFFERENT religions are there who subscribe to the white supremacist/nationalist ideology. There are Protestants there as well as Catholics and also other non-Christian religions too as well as people of NO religion (I don't think there any Jews though ... I'm not sure if there are any Muslims but I doubt it ... I only browsed through it out of curiousity a couple times)

Found this on wikipedia so you don't have to google for the forum:

In the United States, white supremacist movements sometimes are linked to fundamentalist Christianity or Christian Identity; but most Christians, even those who identify themselves as "fundamentalists", denounce the movement as fundamentally non-Christian. Some white supremacists consider violence to be a legitimate way to further their cause and dismiss Christianity as a "suicidal" faith.

Other white supremacist groups identify themselves as Odinists. The white supremacist version of Odinism has little to do with Christian Identity, but there is one key similarity: their version of Odinism provides dualism - as does Christian Identity - with regard to the universe being comprised of 'worlds of light' (white people) and 'worlds of dark' (non-white people). The most fundamental difference between the two ideologies is that Odinists believe in the old Norse gods and do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Some groups, such as the South African Boeremag, even conflate elements of Christianity and Odinism.

Many white supremacist groups do not necessarily adhere to Christian Identity or other religious doctrines. Groups such as the American Nazi Party are largely politically, rather than religiously, motivated. The Ku Klux Klan (KKK), one of the most recognized white supremacist groups in the United States, proposes racial segregation that generally is not based on religious ideals.

 

[wit>trope]

It has no real pressence in Islam

Then why is according to wikipedia, Wahabbi Islam the OFFICIAL RELIGION of Saudi Arabia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabi

Modern spread of Wahhabism

Wahhabism is the official form of Islam in Saudi Arabia. In 1924 the Wahhabi al-Saud dynasty conquered Mecca and Medina, cities holy to Muslims, creating the Saudi state. The spread of Wahhabi Islam has been facilitated by Saudi oil revenues; Saudi laypeople, government officials and clerics have donated many tens of millions of dollars to create Wahhabi-oriented religious schools, newspapers and outreach organizations.

Some Wahhabis believe that many Muslim Brotherhood scholars — Sayyed Qutb and Yusuf al-Qaradawi are sometimes cited — are corrupted due to their innovations in Islam, and their call to revolution and rebellion against the rulers of Muslim countries. For the same reason, they hold that Osama bin Laden is not a Wahhabi, but a Qutbee (follower of Sayyed Qutb), due to his rebellion against the rulers of Saudi Arabia.

Wahhabis ban pictures, photographs, musical instruments, singing, video, and celebrating Muhammad's birthday, among many other things, based on their interpretation of the ahadith (classical collections of sayings and traditions of Muhammad). These practices have come to be associated with the more radical Islamist factions, particularly following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the later rise of the Taliban.

Many contend that Wahhabism is or has become a dominant form of Islam through proselytization driven by Saudi funding; others contend that its influence is less widespread and that the practice and observance of Wahhabism and the political manifestations that flow therefrom are more nuanced than its most doctrinaire interpretations.

 

[Azadre]

Then why is according to wikipedia, Wahabbi Islam the OFFICIAL RELIGION of Saudi Arabia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabi

Well, from what you're posting. The Wahabis are just fundementalists, while the Qutbi (another cult) are the ones doing the killing. So your posting something that kills your initial argument.

 

[wit>trope]

Well, from what you're posting. The Wahabis are just fundementalists, while the Qutbi (another cult) are the ones doing the killing. So your posting something that kills your initial argument.

Um no. Some wahabis don't consider Osama bin Laden to be a wahabi but Osama bin Laden considers himself to be wahabi. Besides that a lot of the 9-11 terrorists were WAHABIS from Saudi Arabia.

 

[BasketCase]

The problem is that the USA is not beating the terrorist that perpetrated the 9/11 for example. Bin Laden is still free, and the use of brute force in Iraq (that had nothing to do with terrorism) has only caused more terrorism. Brute force just doesn´t work when you don´t know exactly who attacked you and where he is.

How can we know the boldface part there? A terrorist's entire modus operandi is to AVOID being detected until after he strikes. A week ago I didn't know London was going to get bombed. None of us knew. But the plot was still in the works.

Everybody loves to assume this or that U.S. action "only hatched more terrorism", and it's malarkey. We may see more terrorists because 9/11 is causing us to look harder, or we may just be acting paranoid, or there really might be more terrorists--but since they're trying to avoid detection, it's impossible to know. If violence breeds more terrorists, someone explain to my why China's violence against Tibet and its threatened violence against Taiwaan hasn't spawned any terrorist attacks against China?

Many times in CFC I've seen somebody say "either you should do exactly what I want you to do, or your actions are going to hatch more terrorists". The fact that human beings have always been bitterly divided over how best to run the planet (take U.S. elections over the last 20 years as a case in point) shows that none of us actually knows how best to run the planet.

Moving on:

A while back, Rik Meleet mentioned that the root of the problem lies in finding and addressing the things that cause people to lose hope for life and become suicide bombers.

My original reply was that we can't get to those things that cause people to lose hope, because the people live in dictatorships. While I stand by my opinion, I should have been painting with a different brush.

There's another major reason people lose hope and become suicide bombers: culture. There's a large number of cultures in the world (frequently religious ones) that delve heavily into "blue laws". Drinking is sinful, having sex with someone not your wife is sinful, wearing lipstick in public is sinful. The Taliban in Afghanistan went so far as to ban pets, music, colored baloons, and much more.

These cultures seem to make a specific effort to ban everything that's fun. This leads me to think of one of the scary ideas George Orwell posed in his book "1984": that you prove your power over someone by making them suffer. If someone is not suffering, as Orwell writes, how do you know they're obeying your will and not their own? If you tell the people to do things that will cause them hardship, and they do those things, you can be pretty sure you've got the ball.

If another culture has banned as "sinful" everything you can do to give them hope--especially in today's world, where other cultures are things to be treasured for the sake of diversity--how the bloody hell are we supposed to improve the lot of suffering people???

The good news is that some of these repressive cultures are suffering widespread backlashes against them. In Iran, a much larger number of women than you might suspect actually do wear makeup in public! The trick is, they keep an eye out for approaching mullahs, and they're always ready to wipe the incriminating evidence off their faces. The minute the coast is clear, the lipstick and eye shadow go right back on.

 

[VoodooAce]

Even Rummy wondered aloud whether we were breeding more terrorists than we're taking out. Seems like a good probability to me.

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: Why don't you guys move discussions regarding terrorism in general, and anything else not specifically about the bombings in London to other threads? Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Evil Tyrant]

Just want to say this to the Londoners in response to the bombings .