Extra Traits for C2C

[Thunderbrd]

So, continuing to put Aggressive under the microscope, under SGT Slick's current proposal we have:

Spoiler :

                <TraitInfo>
                        <Type>TRAIT_AGGRESSIVE</Type>
                        <Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_AGGRESSIVE</Description>
                        <ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_AGGRESSIVE_SHORT</ShortDescription>
                        <iHealth>0</iHealth>
                        <iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
                        <iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
                        <iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
                        <iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
                        <iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
                        <iGreatGeneralRateModifier>20</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
                        <iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
                        <iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
                        <iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
                        <iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
                        <!-- Revolution Trait Effects Begin -->
                        <iRevIdxLocal>0</iRevIdxLocal>
                        <iRevIdxNational>0</iRevIdxNational>
                        <iRevIdxHolyCityGood>0</iRevIdxHolyCityGood>
                        <iRevIdxHolyCityBad>0</iRevIdxHolyCityBad>
                        <fRevIdxNationalityMod>0</fRevIdxNationalityMod>
                        <fRevIdxBadReligionMod>0</fRevIdxBadReligionMod>
                        <fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>0</fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>
                        <iRevIdxDistanceModifier>0</iRevIdxDistanceModifier>
                        <bNonStateReligionCommerce>0</bNonStateReligionCommerce>
                        <bUpgradeAnywhere>0</bUpgradeAnywhere>
                        <!-- Revolution Trait Effects End -->
                        <PropertyManipulators>
                                <PropertySource>
                                        <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                                                <PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
                                                <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
                                                <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                                                <iAmountPerTurn>8</iAmountPerTurn>
                                                <Active>
                                                        <Greater>
                                                                <PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
                                                                <Constant>200</Constant>
                                                        </Greater>
                                                </Active>
                                </PropertySource>
                        </PropertyManipulators>
                        <ExtraYieldThresholds/>
                        <TradeYieldModifiers/>
                        <CommerceChanges/>
                        <CommerceModifiers/>
                        <FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
                                <FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
                                        <PromotionType>PROMOTION_COMBAT1</PromotionType>
                                                <UnitCombatTypes>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ASSAULT_MECH</UnitCombatType>
                                                </UnitCombatTypes>
                                </FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
                                <FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
                                        <PromotionType>PROMOTION_AGGRESSIVE</PromotionType>
                                                <UnitCombatTypes>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
                                                        <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ASSAULT_MECH</UnitCombatType>
                                                </UnitCombatTypes>
                                </FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
                        </FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
                </TraitInfo>

Which, translated, means:

Aggressive

• +20% Great General Emergence
• Free Combat I and Aggressive promotions to Melee, Gun, HiTech and Assault Mech units
• +8 Crime per turn in each city that already has more than 200 Crime

I believe, under this proposal, Aggressive stays at +10% Combat bonus.

The negative here is some crime penalty if crime is allowed to get out of hand (it gets even moreso at that point).

Now, I presume that if we're making a game option for Devil's Advocate Traits, then the Purist version would thus be:

Aggressive

• +20% Great General Emergence
• Free Combat I and Aggressive promotions to Melee, Gun, HiTech and Assault Mech units

Now then, before we start getting irate about our statements not being heard, lets give Slick the benefit of the doubt in that I don't think he's had all the time in the world to follow all the comments made so far.

But I'll note, for the sake of review, the following points that have been brought up here (and a couple more of my own) that I think should be taken into further consideration:

• Hydro strongly wishes to remove any free promotions that are already existing promotions in the game because of overlaps with other buildings, cultural units, mission bonuses, event freebies and so on overlapping so much as it is making those of the above that give out promotions that we already have, like Combat I, less valuable to leaders who are already receiving such a bonus from the trait.
  
  
• I've brought up that while I'm not entirely against this, it does, especially in this case, mean that we're violating Vanilla custom and could be disrupting player expectations of the mod by removing Combat I from the Aggressive trait, which is usually selected by players for the very reason that it gets them closer to unlocking many other promos that Combat I leads to. On the merit of its bonus alone, Combat I is rather weak in comparison to most promos so the actual immediate unit bonus from taking the Aggressive trait is usually not so much what Aggressive selecting players are usually after.
  
  
• However, I've also proposed that if we are to remove Combat I from Aggressive, then the Aggressive promo, standing alone, should be +20% Attack, +10% Defense. I'm happy to try this.
  
  
• ls612 stated a preference for Combat I and Aggressive combined as it shows in this proposal. However, he agreed he'd be fine with giving the +20%Attack, +10%Defense Aggressive promo a chance to stand alone as the only bonus promotion from this trait.
  
  
• My previous proposal, if we keep the Combat I here, was to put the Aggressive promo at +15% Attack, -10% Defense. Now, I'll adjust that proposal, based on feedback from others who balk at the idea that an Aggressive leader would be a total slouch at defense due to a general overall improved unit training, to a mere +10% Attack only. Note that this in combination with Combat I presents the same benefits to the unit fresh out of training but with Combat I, that unit is closer to qualifying for a host of other, better promos.
  
  
• I like the GG bonus. I don't think many others have commented on that from the previous proposal rounds. Its good its not too strong though because I think we'll need to make the differentiation between Aggressive and Imperialistic clear albeit give them a nice symmetry for the player who wants an excessive war benefit at the cost of lacking good civil bonuses.

In regards to the malus (which would be based on a game option - I have an idea how to set this up btw that is a completely new approach... more on that in a bit.)

• We have received very strong worded opposition to crime penalties on Aggressive.
  
  
• Some of this may be accounting for the strong opposition to having any malus on positive traits.
  
  
• Additionally, some of the opposition to positive traits having any malus at all may also be a result of deep disagreements regarding some of the decisions as to what that malus would be. This may be one of those areas where the punishment for Aggressive leaders may not be fitting the crime to the perceptions of some players - but I'd like to hear what the rationale for crime being employed in this manner is because I think there probably is some meaningful rationale behind this proposal that has not been effectively expressed yet to those against it.
• Nevertheless, I'm of the opinion that when designing malus on positive traits, we need to make it entirely obvious why any given penalty is on that particular trait - not just in what we express here, but on first glance it should immediately make sense.
  
  
• Anyhow, it'd be interesting to hear more from those who have opinions here as to why they feel that crime is or is not fitting for Aggressive, with the understanding that in this game option scheme all positive traits will have some small negative element as a counterbalance. So the discussion is no longer on whether they should or should not have a hint of negativity, but rather if CRIME is the most rationale penalty. If you are against crime being put to use here, please offer what you feel would be more fitting. Consider balance too... Under the above points and discussions, how valuable do you feel the positive side of Aggressive would measure up to other positive traits as you see it? And take that into consideration with how strong to apply a negative.
  
  
• My previous suggestion for a Malus on Aggressive was to assign a War Weariness penalty as the Aggressive leader tends to wear down his nation's appreciation for war faster. There was initial opposition to that idea until I explained the thinking on the basis of it being a direct antitheses to the Aggressive benefits and some after the rationale was expressed on the basis of the mechanic of War Weariness naturally being more prevalent a problem for an Aggressive leader, which does make some sense there ls.
  
  
• So after some thought, my counterproposal for the malus is this: Aggressive, without Combat I, would not be a very strong trait in comparison to others, even if the Aggressive promo was +20% Attack, +10% Defense and it gains some GG bonuses. I think we should look at some more ways to benefit Aggressive leaders from the new tags. But for the malus, I think it could be as simple as a -1 Diplomacy penalty to all other leaders (We don't like how willing you are to strike at other nations.) I think that'd be enough to represent the drawback for aggressive unless we start pouring on a lot of other bonuses from the new tags that give cause for a balance reconsideration.
  
  
• I recall you stating, Sgt, that you had that in mind already too.
  
  
• I'm personally on the fence on the crime malus and am waiting patiently for the arguments for and against the idea there so I can consider it from new perspectives.
  
  
• On the 'for the crime' side of the fence, I can see how Aggressive leaders could inspire a more aggressive populace. More population tending to have been not only in the military, but in combat at some point, have developed a more fearless arrogance coupled with personal resent against the state that could lead to more crime.
  
  
• On the 'against the crime' side, there's a lot of justifications for crime modifiers on a lot of traits and if we aren't selective about which are compelling enough to apply any given modifier, including crime modifiers which are particularly easy to come up with arguments for, we would end up with too many traits interacting with crime. And the danger exists for other tags in use too which has been the biggest issue that's created controversy here when one type of tag is used too commonly throughout the traits structure. I'm thinking traits should stay clearly within their theme and that reflects views I'm hearing others expressing here as well. To me, a crime penalty may be a bit too good a fit for some other traits.
  
  
• You previously asked for feedback on the manner in which the crime penalty is applied, aka +8crime rate for cities with more than 200 crime, creating a runaway effect that's hard to control once you've let it go too far. Joseph's feedback there was pretty strongly against the sudden runaway effect, and I don't think he was the only one to say it. I personally think its a bit of a mean trap for the player but it also makes things more interesting in that it gives the player a point to say to himself, I CANNOT allow crime to exceed 200! So I can see good and bad in that design and I think its going to be controversial in a way we can't smooth over. Aside from the interesting game consideration this creates, I also wonder what the rationale is for it from a reflection of reality sense. I guess, as a result of being unable to answer that question, I personally think to veer more towards a stance where if we have a property manipulator, it should usually be a per population based rate manipulator. There's something to be said for the 'runaway trap' but I'm not sure what situations would call for that rationally yet.

Take note, too, that I'm currently working out ALL of your proposed new tags, as noted a few posts back. What applications on those tags did you have in mind for Aggressive?

 

[Sgtslick]

• 
  I would love to change all the current promotions to ones that are individual to that trait (not generic). To simply remove them altogether - not to be replaced by anything is all well and good to say, but realistically - there are about 8 or 9 different options in terms of what a trait can be, take one away, this would mean they become even more uniform and boring imo.

• 
  -1 Diplomacy penalty to all other leaders for aggressive is indeed what I intended for aggressive. I understand that people might not agree with the particularities, such as crime shouldn't be here, or upkeep shouldn't be here. Its not really by choice that they end up this way. They are as they are so that they are 'in working order'. They will become more individualized, or to put it another way - more appropriate to that trait once more options open up. Without the ability to do this yet I only want to get them in 'working order' and close to balanced. Keeping that in mind nothing is set in concrete.

• 
  In terms of what these options should be; anything is a help. Any option is a good option imo. Such as war wariness, this now reoccurs lots of times and fills a big hole. That's not to say that im happy for them all to stay this way, but it might give you an idea of how they will change/evolve once more options become available.
  I am reluctant to put them in as is just yet since I still think they're kinda undercooked. With an additional 1 or 2 more tags and perhaps some additional building modifiers they will be fleshed out nicely and I'll list them all out formely in the thread where we can talk balance before putting them in the svn. Sound good?
  Oh and after this point, we can still change and adapt them completely. Its just seems a bit unproductive to look at them as a finished product, to say that crime doesn't fit here or promotions shouldn't be this way. The thing of it is, I agree in most cases but at the moment we are without actual alternatives.

• 
  
  @Hydro I remember having this conversation with you before, the 'negative trait's' as you put it were ALWAYS a combination or positive/negative, here have a look at SO first showing of the additional traits - see how they are positive/negative? I don't know how you decided that they begun out as exclusively negative because this simply is not true. You then told me that they should be exclusively negative OR that the positive traits should have a negative dimension too. So I said ok, ill go with option 2. To be clear though, all I did was use this 'frame work' and build on it. You or anyone else for that matter ever said that it should be exclusively negative/positive from the start and then when you realised how they were we decided that they were going to be the way they are now. Its really unfair to then turn around 5 months later and bring this same thing up. If you unhappy with what the negative/positive aspects are (they seem like a grey mesh of similarity- I hear ya! I agree wholeheartedly. But thats not to say that the problem is the structure, its the current lack of options. Which is now slowly starting to grow - think property maniuplators, war wariness, and more unique promotions. With the addition of more TAGs they will become more there own colour and less bland.
  
  

  OK here is the list i have what is wrong with it?
  
  

  Spoiler :

  <TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_PROGRESSIST</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PROGRESSIST</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PROGRESSIST_SHORT</ShortDescription
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_COMBAT1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ASSAULT_MECH</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_POLITICIAN</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_POLITICIAN</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_POLITICIAN_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>0.5</fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_HUMANIST</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HUMANIST</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HUMANIST_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<!-- END: POSITIVE_TRAIT -->
  		<!-- BEGIN: NEGATIVE_TRAIT (DRAWBACK) -->
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_ANTI_CLERICAL</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ANTI_CLERICAL</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ANTI_CLERICAL_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_CRUEL</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_CRUEL</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_CRUEL_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>50</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
  			<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>50</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
  			<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>50</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_ARROGANT</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ARROGANT</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ARROGANT_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_IDEALISTIC</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_IDEALISTIC</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_IDEALISTIC_SHORT</ShortDescription
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<ExtraYieldThresholds>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>4</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  			</ExtraYieldThresholds>
  			<TradeYieldModifiers>
  				<iYield>0</iYield>
  				<iYield>0</iYield>
  				<iYield>1</iYield>
  			</TradeYieldModifiers>
  			<CommerceChanges/>
  			<CommerceModifiers/>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_RECKLESS</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iLevelExperienceModifier>-25</iLevelExperienceModifier>
  			<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>-40</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_MEGALOMANIAC</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_MEGALOMANIAC</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_MEGALOMANIAC_SHORT</ShortDescription
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_CITY_GARRISON1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_DRILL1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_BARBARIC</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BARBARIC</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BARBARIC_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_ISOLATIONIST</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ISOLATIONIST</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_ISOLATIONIST_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_AMPHIBIOUS</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HELICOPTER</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ASSAULT_MECH</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_CLONES</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_FANATICAL</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_FANATICAL</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_FANATICAL_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_FLANKING1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WHEELED</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_GUERILLA1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WHEELED</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_SPEED</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  			<BonusHappinessChanges>
  				<BonusHappinessChange>
  					<BonusType>BONUS_HORSE</BonusType>
  					<iHappinessChange>1</iHappinessChange>
  				</BonusHappinessChange>
  				<BonusHappinessChange>
  					<BonusType>BONUS_FUR</BonusType>
  					<iHappinessChange>1</iHappinessChange>
  				</BonusHappinessChange>
  			</BonusHappinessChanges>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_POPULIST</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_POPULIST</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_POPULIST_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iUpkeepModifier>25</iUpkeepModifier>
  			<ExtraYieldThresholds>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>5</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  				<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
  			</ExtraYieldThresholds>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_EXCESSIVE</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EXCESSIVE</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EXCESSIVE_SHORT</ShortDescription
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_LOYALTY</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPY</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_IMPROVISE1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPY</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_FOREIGN</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_FOREIGN</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_FOREIGN_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_TEMPERAMENTAL</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TEMPERAMENTAL</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TEMPERAMENTAL_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>-50</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
  			
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_MEDIC1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_REVOLUTIONARY</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_REVOLUTIONARY</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_REVOLUTIONARY_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_LOYALTY</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPY</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_IMPROVISE1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPY</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<!-- END: NEGATIVE_TRAIT (DRAWBACK) -->
  		<!-- BEGIN: SPECIAL_TRAIT (MINOR AND BARBARIAN) -->
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_HUNTER_GATHERER</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HUNTER_GATHERER</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HUNTER_GATHERER_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>3</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>-75</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
  			<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>-75</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
  			<CommerceChanges>
  				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
  				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
  				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
  				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
  			</CommerceChanges>
  			<CommerceModifiers>
  				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
  				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
  				<iCommerce>-50</iCommerce>
  			</CommerceModifiers>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_SEMI_CIVILIZED</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_SEMI_CIVILIZED</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_SEMI_CIVILIZED_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iHealth>1</iHealth>
  			<iHappiness>1</iHappiness>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iUpkeepModifier>-20</iUpkeepModifier>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_MEDIC1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>
  		<TraitInfo>
  			<Type>TRAIT_BARBARIAN</Type>
  			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BARBARIAN</Description>
  			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BARBARIAN_SHORT</ShortDescription>
  			<iHealth>1</iHealth>
  			<iHappiness>1</iHappiness>
  			<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
  			<iUpkeepModifier>-20</iUpkeepModifier>
  			<FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  				<FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_MEDIC1</PromotionType>
  						<UnitCombatTypes>
  							<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
  						</UnitCombatTypes>
  				</FreePromotionUnitCombatType>
  			</FreePromotionUnitCombatTypes>
  		</TraitInfo>

  
  Now just dont say well anti-clerical needs -1 temples, show me how it works on this trait file, thx.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I would love to change all the current promotions to ones that are individual to that trait (not generic). To simply remove them altogether - not to be replaced by anything is all well and good to say, but realistically - there are about 8 or 9 different options in terms of what a trait can be, take one away, this would mean they become even more uniform and boring imo.

I don't think anybody has suggested all the promotions should be removed. We'll have to generate new ones where we want free promos is all. We might even want to consider giving all traits their own unique free promo to units but that might be excessive.

-1 Diplomacy penalty to all other leaders for aggressive is indeed what I intended for aggressive. I understand that people might not agree with the particularities, such as crime shouldn't be here, or upkeep shouldn't be here. Its not really by choice that they end up this way. They are as they are so that they are 'in working order'. They will become more individualized, or to put it another way - more appropriate to that trait once more options open up. Without the ability to do this yet I only want to get them in 'working order' and close to balanced. Keeping that in mind nothing is set in concrete.

As the tags are in development now I would strongly suggest we start making our plans fairly concrete. If you or anyone else has a great idea for a trait that needs a new tag, nows the time to start talkin' cuz I'm not gonna be focusing on trait tags for more than this next week or two and then I'll be on to another project for a bit while we continue to discuss out the details for each trait. In a sense, they're in a working functional order on the SVN now. Its just now we need to go through them with a fine toothed comb and hammer out the details on each in turn.

at the moment we are without actual alternatives.

I will have these tags in place LONG before we have plans finalized! We absolutely cannot work on developing every trait at once or it just gets far too confusing to all. Each one should be its own well thought out model and then held to compare against the rest that have been equally as well thought out. During this process its certainly likely that we'd have a couple of ideas or edits on ones we thought were 'done' but that's just part of the process I think.

@Hydro I remember having this conversation with you before, the 'negative trait's' as you put it were ALWAYS a combination or positive/negative, here have a look at SO first showing of the additional traits - see how they are positive/negative? I don't know how you decided that they begun out as exclusively negative because this simply is not true. You then told me that they should be exclusively negative OR that the positive traits should have a negative dimension too. So I said ok, ill go with option 2. To be clear though, all I did was use this 'frame work' and build on it. You or anyone else for that matter ever said that it should be exclusively negative/positive from the start and then when you realised how they were we decided that they were going to be the way they are now. Its really unfair to then turn around 5 months later and bring this same thing up. If you unhappy with what the negative/positive aspects are (they seem like a grey mesh of similarity- I hear ya! I agree wholeheartedly. But thats not to say that the problem is the structure, its the current lack of options. Which is now slowly starting to grow - think property maniuplators, war wariness, and more unique promotions. With the addition of more TAGs they will become more there own colour and less bland.

I'm strongly considering going ahead and setting up the option for players who don't want any negatives on their positive traits and vice versa. I have an idea in mind how that could be done. Every tag is pretty much an obvious positive is positive or positive is negative approach right? So it'd be a matter of setting minimums and maximums at 0 in texts and programmed effects under the 'Pure Traits' option. It wouldn't give us maneuverability on the free promo designs and it also would not give us the option of varying any given tag value between the two types of a given trait, but I think we can work around those issues just fine.




Oh... on another note... a diplomatic bonus/penalty tag is not on your list. Is that something traits can already do or do I need to add such a tag? (I think its the latter isn't it?)

 

[Sgtslick]

I understand what your saying thunderbrd, but I still think its better to work the other way around. List out the new available trait tags so I know what I have to work from. Once they are all used up and we still feel like we need more, more uniqueness and more flavour, hell im all for more then we can see where we are at now and its just easier to work from that point rather than scratch.

So if you were to list out the new tags, ill put them all in my traits via the paste bin and list out the my 2nd draft in the thread and we can use that as a starting point.
--I for instance will find it much easier to get new idea, see problems or whatever starting at this point, rather than say - ok what should agricultural be? You know what I mean?

Im not saying my draft will be pretty much final and that people will have to fight tooth and nail to change it lol, its just easier for me (and maybe others) to work this way thx

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, from your design perspective, I can see your point. As you go through these, please do so keeping in mind ls612's design proposals and my own at least. I'm sure you have a lot more ideas as to what to do with these. For REVIEW, we'll still have to focus on one at a time I think. Anyhow, the traits tags I'm working up are as follows:

		<!-- TB Trait Tags begin -->
		<element type="ImprovementUpgradeModifierTypes" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="BuildWorkerSpeedModifierTypes" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="YieldChanges" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="SpecialistYieldChanges" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="YieldModifiers" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="CapitalYieldModifiers" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="SpecialistCommerceChanges" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="CapitalCommerceModifiers" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="SpecialistExtraCommerces" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iWarWearinessAccumulationModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iCivicAnarchyTimeModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iReligiousAnarchyTimeModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iWorkerSpeedModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iMaxConscript" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iDistanceMaintenanceModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iCorporationMaintenanceModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iFreeExperience" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iBaseFreeUnits" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iGoldPerUnit" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iGoldPerMilitaryUnit" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iHappyPerMilitaryUnit" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iLargestCityHappiness" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iFreeSpecialist" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iTradeRoutes" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iStateReligionHappiness" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iNonStateReligionHappiness" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iStateReligionFreeExperience" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iExpInBorderModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iCityDefenseBonus" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="iMilitaryProductionModifier" minOccurs="0"/>
		<element type="bMilitaryFoodProduction" minOccurs="0"/>
		<!-- TB Trait Tags end -->

oh... and as noted, I think I'm going to need to include a DiplomacyModifier tag as well but I haven't looked into that quite yet. Also, word of caution - I'm not entirely certain about the SpecialistCommerceChanges as I'm not sure that's ever been done and I may encounter some struggle there that I might not be able to resolve. But I think I can work it out and it'll form as a good model for Vokarya's similar request for buildings.

 

[Sgtslick]

Here is my 'official' request:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11784389&postcount=155

Diplomacy is 8th.
<ElementType name="iAttitudeModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>

On a side note I need to get my head around http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11598257&postcount=27
perhaps there are cooler ways to implement the property stuff. I think AIAndy said this is only available for the property manipulators. I know the dynamic traits used a system where once a civ got a tech first they got a certain 'trait', I can't quite piece this all together in my head right now and I gotta run for now, maybe someone smarter can explore possibilities. Ill check in tomorrow for sure

 

[Sgtslick]

I'm not entirely certain about the SpecialistCommerceChanges as I'm not sure that's ever been done and I may encounter some struggle there that I might not be able to resolve.

The dynamic traits used it in theirs that's where I got the idea.

-Are you planning on doing ALL the tags?
Hmm I understand why its better to have each one mapped out first from your perspective since you can then only build the tags that are necessary. I just thought you were only going to do one or two that's why I suggested what I did.

Thinking about it more, perhaps we should do it this way. You just go through and pick a few that you like and perhaps would find easy - ill stick them in (like tomorrow or whenever they're done. After this we can go through them as I suggested before.
In other words- just do a few new tags (I don't really care which, whatever you want/easiest), Ill put them in, list my draft in thread (think ill just do it with a heap of screenshots from civilopedia) - then we can go through and finalise each one / make the adjustments and decide on what further tags (if any) should be done etc etc.

* Here is the dynamic traits stuff where I ripped most of these TAG ideas anyway, maybe it can help you.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Most of them are already done and to leave it with the ones I've done is to leave it imbalanced and prepared for dropping the rest entirely. Better to set this up one and done. If you don't use some, c'est la vie.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro I remember having this conversation with you before, the 'negative trait's' as you put it were ALWAYS a combination or positive/negative, here have a look at SO first showing of the additional traits - see how they are positive/negative? I don't know how you decided that they begun out as exclusively negative because this simply is not true. You then told me that they should be exclusively negative OR that the positive traits should have a negative dimension too. So I said ok, ill go with option 2. To be clear though, all I did was use this 'frame work' and build on it. You or anyone else for that matter ever said that it should be exclusively negative/positive from the start and then when you realised how they were we decided that they were going to be the way they are now. Its really unfair to then turn around 5 months later and bring this same thing up. If you unhappy with what the negative/positive aspects are (they seem like a grey mesh of similarity- I hear ya! I agree wholeheartedly. But thats not to say that the problem is the structure, its the current lack of options. Which is now slowly starting to grow - think property maniuplators, war wariness, and more unique promotions. With the addition of more TAGs they will become more there own colour and less bland.

First of all, I can change my mind as the game plays out and we se how it works in game. I don't recall exactly that but even if I did I have said in my recent posts above that we need to decide if we are having all "gray" or "black/white" traits. Black/White traits are easier for the player to understand, while "gray" are more realistic.

In fact I do recall a conversion like this but I think it was for building balance and not necessarily traits. But whatever. I personally am getting kind of exhausted from this debate. So I am going to step back and worry about the other aspects of game I need to help work on. You guys already heard my statement so I trust you guys can work something out to keep the game both balanced and fun.

Good luck you guys! I know you can do it!

 

[ls612]

I'm stepping back from this traits debate as well for the moment, I have a lot of other things going on and I really don't have the time to keep up with all of Thunderbrd's and SgtSlick's ideas, sorry about that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... we've heard your opinions and I think we can work on this with full respect for them so I'm thankful y'all took your time to voice them in full. Thank you for that. Its true that the new tags will greatly complicate the design process and discussions but I think they'll end up giving us a lot of room to focus our traits more on their essences and get them more balanced to one another as many of them give us the ability to add very minor effects to pad around the major ones.

We'll try to keep things fairly simple and extremely obvious as to the reasons for why each effect has been selected.

But don't be strangers here... drop in from time to time to share what you think on things and I hope you know that even if I sound argumentative, I AM listening to what you guys have to say and I believe Slick feels the same way.

 

[Sgtslick]

The new traits are coming along nicely, soon ill post my draft up here so we can all pick it to pieces
Big &#9829; to thunderbrd for doing all these amazing new tags - you guys are gonna like the potential that all the traits have now. We can arrange them all to be really distinctive and original.

 

[Sgtslick]

Platyping's traits look really cool! thx SO
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=482337

These 'tags' in particular sound awesome ~ free great scientist per era, 1 free settled engineer per/when wonder built, cities start with 2 pop, heals units 30% around conquered cities, +5 per city during golden age, +50% xp for units built in city, +1 per settled great person, +25% to enslave unit, boost in all cities when city conquered.

 

[ls612]

Platyping's traits look really cool! thx SO
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=482337

These 'tags' in particular sound awesome ~ free great scientist per era, 1 free settled engineer per/when wonder built, cities start with 2 pop, heals units 30% around conquered cities, +5 per city during golden age, +50% xp for units built in city, +1 per settled great person, +25% to enslave unit, boost in all cities when city conquered.

Issue is that I don't think they are quite balanced for C2C. I've thought before about integrating Platyping's new traits, but I looked at them and figured it would be more sensible to do a less drastic approach (what we have now).

Also, when you say "post the draft for people to pick to pieces" do you mean just the XML, or a write-up (like I did)?

 

[Thunderbrd]

At the moment I agree with ls.

But I did give more details on my take on this to you and SO in PMs Sgt. It'd be premature to jump into work on such trait tags at the moment but soon we can take a look at them in a new light (where game balance won't be as much of an issue)

 

[Sgtslick]

Also, when you say "post the draft for people to pick to pieces" do you mean just the XML, or a write-up (like I did)?

yeah ill write it up without the code, just gotta find time to finish them. So hectic at the moment, work's going bannanas. I said to thunderbrd i'll try and post it up here by sunday afternoon US time, so ill find some time this weekend and stick to this plan.

Then thunderbrd said it'll be aprox. another week (from sunday) for his tags to be finalised and in the SVN. So that'll give us a week to hash out changes and such.
Of course there is nothing stopping us from continuing to make changes, but it'd be good to at least have a starting version up and going by this time.

 

[Sgtslick]

* All previous buildings/unit modifiers remain unchanged *


PHILOSOPHICAL

+75%
-1 Fur
Artist +1 +1
Scientist +1
War Weariness +20%
Civic Anarchy Time Modifier +20%


AGGRESSIVE

+9 crime when crime is &#8805; 200
Free COMBAT 1 for MELEE GUN HITECH ASSAULT MECH
Free AGGRESSIVE promo on MELEE
Military Production Modifier +10%
Attitude Modifier -1

SPIRITUAL

+1
Rev indx from holy city +1 (good)
+50% Revolution index bonus (good) from state religion.
Priest +1 +1 commerce
Scientist -1
Religious Anarchy Time Modifier -500%
State Religion Great People Rate Modifier +30%
+15% state religion production bonus for buildings
State Religion Happiness +3
Non State Religion Happiness -3

ORGANIZED

Upkeep modifier -20%
-20%
Capital -10%
Capital +10% commerce
Specialist Noble -1 culture, Specialist Artist -1 culture
Worker Speed modifier -20%
Num Cities Maintenance Modifier -20% costs

INDUSTRIOUS

-1
+20% Wonder production
+1 on tiles with &#8805; 7
+20 Air Pollution when population is &#8805; 30
+10 Water Pollution When population is &#8805; 25
IMPROVEMENT WORKSHOP +100% upgrade rate
Worker Speed Modifier WORKSHOP +50%, WATERMILL +30%, MINE +20%, WINDMILL +30% QUARRY +30% FACTORY +50% GEOTHERMAL FACTORY +50%

CREATIVE

+3 per city
+25% War Weariness
NOBLE +1 culture
ARTIST +2 culture
Capital Commerce Modifier +20% culture
Max Conscript -5
Largest City Happiness +2

FINANCIAL

+1 in tiles where is &#8805; 4
+1 Trade Yield
Worker Speed Modifier COTTAGE +30%
MERCHANT +1
+5% yield
Corporation Maintenance Modifier -30%
max conscipt -10
lagest city happiness -2
City Defense Bonus -20%

EXPANSIVE

+3
domestic great generals -20% (inside borders)
Revolution Index Local +1 (this is bad)
Revolution index distance -50 (=50% this is good)
Distance Maintenance Modifier -25%
Number Cities Maintenance Modifier -25%
Largest City Happiness -1
Exp In Border Modifier -25% (bad)


CHARISMATIC

+1
Level Experience Modifier -25% (good)
Military Production Modifier -15%
Attitude Modifier +1


PROTECTIVE

Revolution Index Local +1
Crime -3 when population is &#8805; 10
Free GARRISON 1 promo Archer Gun Hitech
Free TRENCH 1 promo Gun
Worker Speed Modifier FORT +40%
War Weariness -20%
Distance Maintenance Modifier +25%
Number Cities Maintenance Modifier +30%
City Defense Bonus +15%


IMPERIALIST

Great General Rate Modifier +50%
Revolution Index Local +1 (bad)
Revolution Index National -1 (good)
experience in borders +20%
city defence +5%

SEAFARING

Free AMPHIBIOUS for MELEE, HELICOPTER, HITECH, ASSAULT_MECH, CLONES
Free NAVIGATION 1 for WOODEN_SHIPS, NUCLEAR_SHIPS, SUBMARINE, DIESEL_SHIPS, STEAM_SHIPS.
IMPROVEMENT BEACON +100% upgrade rate
IMPROVEMENT SEED_FARM -100% upgrade rate
Worker speed +50% for BEACONS, LIGHTHOUSES & HARVEST KELP
Distance Maintenance -20%
City Defence -20%
Trade Routes +1

NOMAD

Crime +10 when population is &#8805; 20
free promotion woodsman1 recon
free promotion PACK_HUNTER1 canine
free promotion PACK_HUNTER2 canine
free promotion FLANKING1 for animals & recon
Horse & Camel +1
SCAVENGING_CAMP +50% build time
NOMADIC_HERD +100% build time
Camp +50% build time
*still gets the +1 bonus from scavenger camps or w/e it is*

AGRICULTURAL

+1 on tiles with 5 or more
Improvement Upgrade Modifier SEED_FARM +100% SEED_CAMP +100% PLANT PICKING CAMP +100% WORKSHOP -100%
+50% Worker build time for FARM MUSHROOM_GATHERER LEMON_ORCHARD OLIVE_ORCHARD OLIVE_PICKING_CAMP PLANT_PICKING_CAMP PLANT_GATHERING_CAMP PLANTATION ORCHARD FRUIT_GATHERING_CAMP GRAPE_PICKING_CAMP GRAPE_GATHERING_CAMP WINERY
Worker Speed Modifier -20% (meaning faster)
Capital Yield +5%
NumCitiesMaintenanceModifier +30%
City Defense Bonus -10%

DECEIVER

+3 per city
free DECEPTION1 & SECURITY1 for spies
Attitude modifier -1
SPY gp's +1

 

[Sgtslick]

SCIENTIFIC

+1 per city
+10% yield
worker speed +50% for solar panels
Capital city +10% yield
SCIENTIST +2
War Weariness +20%
Military Production Modifier -20% (bad)


HUMANITARIAN

+1
+1
Upkeep Modifier +15%
crime the same as it was -3 crime when pop is 10
free MEDIC1 for recon
NATURE_PRESERVE +50% build time
War Weariness +20%
Happy per Military unit -1
Largest City Happiness +2
Attitude Modifier +2
Number of cities maintenance +20%

PROGRESSIST

Upgrade Anywhere
free promo COMBAT_AI1 ROBOT DREADNOUGHT NANITE ASSAULT_MECH
free promo DEFENSIVE_PROTOCOLS1 robot
IMPROVED_RADAR stealth
HAMLET +100% upgrade time
LUMBERJACK +100% upgrade time
Worker Speed Modifier +50% to HYBRID_FOREST GROUNDWATER_WELL MODERN_MINE LUMBERMILL PEAT_CUTTER


POLITICIAN

Upkeep Modifier -25%
RevIdxNational -1 (good)
free LOYALTY for spies
Civic Anarchy Time Modifier -25%


ANTI_CLERICAL

RevIdxHolyCityGood -1 (this is bad)
RevIdxHolyCityBad +1 (this is bad)
PRIEST -1 +1
Religious Anarchy Time Modifier +300% (longer)
Corporation Maintenance Modifier -15%
Base Free Military Units +8
Extra Free Units based off population percentage ~ 10%
State Religion Building Production Modifier -10%

CRUEL

-1
+15% fast national wonder production
+8 crime with population is &#8805; 15
-15% culture
SPECIALIST - SETTLED_CITIZEN +2 hammers -1 commerce SETTLED_SLAVE +2 hammers -1 commerce
+5%
Largest cities -1

IDEALISTIC

Upkeep Modifier +25%
Civic Anarchy Time Modifier +25%
+5% culture
+25%


MEGALOMANIAC

-1
+5% science
+30% civic upkeep
+20% number of city maintenance
Rev Idx Local +1
Attitude Modifier -2
civic anarchy +20%
Capital yields +5% production +15% commerce


BARBARIC

+2 crime per 9 population of a city
-15% culture
-20%
free combat 1 for melee
+15% military unit production
Attitude Modifier -2


ISOLATIONIST

Rev national index +1
Trade yields -30% -20%
-20% culture
-1 trade routes
+20% distance maintenance.
+10%
+15% city defence

FANATICAL

Upkeep Modifier +10%
-10% science
INCENSE +1
SCIENTIST -1 science
Capital -10% science yield
State Religion Unit Production Modifier +20%
state religion free experience 3


POPULIST
+1
-1
rev index local -1 (good)
+1 in tiles with 8
-1 per city
-6% production
+60% from trade
-30% commerce from trade
City Defense Bonus -15%


EXCESSIVE

-1
Level Experience Modifier +10% needed
-20%
free RAIDER 1 for melee
IMPROVISE 1 spy


FOREIGN

-1
-20%
+1 commerce for trade routes
+1 espionage per city
-5% science
-10% culture
+10% espionage
free LOYALTY for spies
+1 trade routes


TEMPERAMENTAL (needs a benefit, not finished..)

Level Experience Modifier 5% more needed
-5%
-5% gg's
-5% culture
free experience -2 when units are produced


REVOLUTIONARY

Max anarchy 4 turns
Rev Idx Local +1
rev idx national +2
+2 crime when pop is 6
-1 commerce in cities
+1 espionage in cities
-10% gold
+20% espionage
INSTIGATOR1 for spies
+30% great generals inside borders


HUNTER_GATHERER

UpkeepModifier +10%
+1 food when you have 7 on a tile
-80% food trade
-20% culture



BARBARIAN SAVAGES!!

+1
+2
-30% upkeep modifier
free aggressive promo on melee
+50% military production
+25% experience needed for promo's
Can upgrade anywhere
+50% worker speeds across the board
base free units +4
extra free units based off of population percentage (35%)


* Feel free to make suggestions - I want to implement the traits 2.0 on Sunday (US) or Monday into the SVN.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Just a couple of quick remarks.
1. No war weariness factor should ever be greater + or - than 20%. We debated this back in versions 14 thru 17 and the Large %'s > or = 25 make sustained wars impossible. <-25% gives Unfair advantage. We worked on these for 3 versions to come up with this.
2. Spiritual is hammered again with a double negative science, this needs to go if anarchy is now 250% longer. Plus the Non state unhappiness should Not be greater than the State happiness. Spiritual should not be set or defined by a "State Religion".
3. Too much manipulation of on all traits. Needs all reduced.
I.e. Humanitarian at +1 would be fine but Expansive at +3 is too much. Populist at -1 needs removed. While Cruel should maybe have a -1. Financial does not need to adjust Health either, etc.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

3. Too much manipulation of on all traits. Needs all reduced.

Does that really make that much difference on those?

Because from what i am understanding is that, we dont get 1/100th of a Great Doctor, and "we" need to get more of those, and well i am at it "we" are not getting and Great Spy also anymore, they are more fun to have, Plus once in awhile you might get a Great Scientist. But i haven't got a GDoc GSpy in 20 games.

We need something changed to get these 2 more some place then??