Extra Traits for C2C

[strategyonly]

Incense is so unlikely to be gotten so that +1 I hardly count. It's a bonus in the unlikelihood that you do manage to get an Incense is all.

As for the -15% it's more than simply 15% behind in the technology race, you're also later on the technologies that give buildings/civics that increase your so in essence you are quite a bit further behind than the number 15% would indicate.
It is not until you get to have several other +% that those 15% start counting as less and you catch up a bit more. As for reducing it that was also if the positive entries in the Trait were removed. Having other things making up for the lack in makes it a different way yo play is all.
I'm still not happy about negative Traits having too many, or any, positive entries. For me having negative Traits means two or more leaders with the same positive Traits can still be different due to having different negative Traits.

I'd also like to point out that all the -% trait entries, not just the -%, are a lot more detrimental in the start of the game until the numbers for the changed % entry start increasing and a bunch of +% buildings/civics become available, basically around mid to late Classical Era.
That does mean that if one falls too far behind in the two early Eras the game could be lost already so throwing in too many high -% is dangerous, which certainly includes the -15%.
Even with the positive entries I'd reduce those -15 or higher %-ages to at most -10%, possibly even less.

Cheers

Now having said all that, is there a way YOU can do some XMLing of the LH traits, and then YOU and Sgtslick can then compare notes, its always better to SEE what a person is talking about rather than just the words writing here, "I'm Just Say."

 

[RidetheSpiral23]

I do agree that the negative traits should not have any positive traits at all. I basically agree with everything BlueGenie is saying. I would be willing to try my hand at some XML. I have not done any before but I'm not a complete moron. I don't have the SVN though so I don't know how that would work...

 

[Sgtslick]

The idea is that if someone is isolationist for example, it isn't purely a negative attribute. The civ learns to rely on itself and excels in areas like getting +6% while taking a big hit in trade yield including a whopping -20% from commerce (which is huge especially later in the game since commerce from foreign trade will be the majority or your civs commerce). Also from a lack of exposure to outside cultures and lack of inspiration/ideas culture takes a hit -20%, then to balance these big negatives there are other factors such as free amphibious. I would still classify isolationist on aggregate negative. I feel the traits are less 2 dimensional this way. I can be convinced tho that this example could be changed to like; -15% commerce from trade, get rid of amphibious, reduce science to 3%, and maybe a city defender promotion on gun units or something, just off the top of my head. This would make the positive less profound as well as the negative.
Just because they were initially labelled 'negative' traits doesn't mean they strictly need to be purely negative does it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Just because they were initially labelled 'negative' traits doesn't mean they strictly need to be purely negative does it?

YES!! Unless we are redoing the positive traits to to give negative stats too, then negative traits should not have ANY positive stats on them. They are made to counter the the 2 positive traits your leader gets.

 

[strategyonly]

YES!! Unless we are redoing the positive traits to to give negative stats too, then negative traits should not have ANY positive stats on them. They are made to counter the the 2 positive traits your leader gets.

Yeah what "he" said.

 

[Koshling]

YES!! Unless we are redoing the positive traits to to give negative stats too, then negative traits should not have ANY positive stats on them. They are made to counter the the 2 positive traits your leader gets.

Although it's a perfectly legitimate observation that traits in real life tend to have positive and negative aspects. The reason we need negative traits now is to act as a counter-balance to the 2 positive traits. HOWEVER, it might well be a better long term design to simply no have positiev and negative traits at all, but just have self-balancing traits (i.e. - positive and negative aspects). That's a bigger job though.

 

[RidetheSpiral23]

Although it's a perfectly legitimate observation that traits in real life tend to have positive and negative aspects. The reason we need negative traits now is to act as a counter-balance to the 2 positive traits. HOWEVER, it might well be a better long term design to simply no have positiev and negative traits at all, but just have self-balancing traits (i.e. - positive and negative aspects). That's a bigger job though.

That would be ideal!

 

[Sgtslick]

Well that information would have been useful over a month ago since even strategyonly's prototype had positive dimensions within the NEGATIVE traits.. If you had such a rigid agenda lined up for them why not say something earlier.
Finish them off how you'd like then. One change that needs to happen regardless of the positive/negative stuff is an more even distribution of traits. Like I said in my earlier list;

Even out the spread of traits, some traits have lots of leaders and some only have very few, such as PROGRESSIST which only has FREDERICK. MEGALOMANIAC has 10 leaders, revolutionary has 5 for instance. DECEIVER has 3, HUMANITARIAN has 4, SCIENTIFIC has only MANSA MUSA. AGGRESSIVE HAS 23.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If you had such a rigid agenda lined up for them why not say something earlier.

I did! See here.

 

[Sgtslick]

I did! See here.

Obviously you can't be on top of every thread at all times, and I do appreciate all the work you put into this mod, but that was after they were done, long after my initial questions etc. Nevermind, these are a start for you anyway.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I did not think it would need explaining before. I mean it was called "Negative Traits". Its like saying "We are going to get a blue car." and then you ask "Why can't we paint it red too?" even though we already have 2 red cars.

 

[Sgtslick]

Even tho the first prototype car had red on it, but your right- how completely stupid of me and I must seem like a total ignoramus

 

[ls612]

Even tho the first prototype car had red on it, but your right- how completely stupid of me and I must seem like a total ignoramus

That's OK, we all miss things occasionally.

 

[Sgtslick]

Although it's a perfectly legitimate observation that traits in real life tend to have positive and negative aspects. The reason we need negative traits now is to act as a counter-balance to the 2 positive traits. HOWEVER, it might well be a better long term design to simply no have positiev and negative traits at all, but just have self-balancing traits (i.e. - positive and negative aspects). That's a bigger job though.

I would be open to doing this if like.

If you did want me to do this strategyonly, Hydromancer I think the best way to go about it would be for me to do a draft document or spreadsheet or something that can be adjusted easily and used as a reference.

You could then make revisions to the draft and give it back to me and i'd put it in xml etc.

If you wanted me to do it you should give me some specific guidelines perhaps.

For example, don't adjust current positive traits just add 2 negative modifiers to each.
Something like this.

Trait descriptions and all needs to be done too as well as the reshuffling of all traits < this will take the most time in my opinion.

Would take me maybe 2-3 weeks to do it all if you were interested. I would just need a 'guideline' or outline policy kinda thing to do the draft first of all.

 

[RidetheSpiral23]

I personally think it would be a good idea to just have traits with both positive and negatives. It would work out better when the dynamic traits are implemented. Everyone would just end up picking the least detrimental negative trait. It would be nice to have more traits to pick from too.

Here are some examples of what I think would work well. Just some thoughts I was writing done in free time at work. They could definitely need some balancing.

Spoiler :

Barbaric
Free Combat I promotion
25% faster production of Chief’s Hut, Warrior’s Hut
-10% Culture
20% more experience needed for promotions

Conqueror
Free City Raider I promotion
25% faster production of siege units
-10% espionage
-10% Wonder Production

War Veteran
35% increase in GG emergence
+5 free upkeep units
-2 to diplomatic relations
-2 Happiness

Protective
Free City Defense I promotion
+10% Culture
-25% Foreign trade routes
-25% production of trade buildings

Creative
+10% Culture
25% faster production of culture buildings
-10% GP

Charismatic
+2 Happiness
+2 for diplomatic relations
10% Civic Upkeep cost

Spiritual
Max 2 turns of Anarchy
25% faster production of temples
-10% Science
-10% GP

Scientific
10% Science
25% faster production of science buildings
No happiness per temple
-10% GP

Philosophical
+20% Great Person Birth Rate
+5% Culture?
-25% military production

Imperialistic
25% faster production of settlers, workers
Free Riot I promotion
-10% Espionage
-2 to diplomatic relations

Industrious
+35% Faster Wonder Production
25% faster production of forge etc
-2 Health
-5% Culture

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm liking Ride the Spiral's thinking there, and most of his examples. Due to Koshling's insightful truth, it seems more rational for traits to be internally balanced at about 2-1 positive to negative effects, each individually. Its harder to define a bunch of negative effects on 'negative traits' and positive ones on 'positive traits' because when you think of the rl effect of those 'traits' as observable in world leaders, you can easily see how all of them are double edged swords that come with both good and bad in each.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would be open to doing this if like.

If you did want me to do this strategyonly, Hydromancer I think the best way to go about it would be for me to do a draft document or spreadsheet or something that can be adjusted easily and used as a reference.

You could then make revisions to the draft and give it back to me and i'd put it in xml etc.

If you wanted me to do it you should give me some specific guidelines perhaps.

For example, don't adjust current positive traits just add 2 negative modifiers to each.
Something like this.

Trait descriptions and all needs to be done too as well as the reshuffling of all traits < this will take the most time in my opinion.

Would take me maybe 2-3 weeks to do it all if you were interested. I would just need a 'guideline' or outline policy kinda thing to do the draft first of all.

Here is the guideline ...

No positive stats for the Negative traits. I am not too picky on what they are only that negative traits are traits you do not want to have.

Can't you just go over your existing plans and then take out the benefits from it and leave the negative stuff?

 

[Smikis]

Just posting my opinion on what's currently in game

2 old double positive = 4
new 2 single positive =2 + 1 negative= score of 1 vs old 4

or maybe its just my imagination that old positive have twice as much positive stuff than new positive traits which area really small

while all that aside some traits just silly together.. for example creative expansive cruel , creative adds culture, cruel takes it away.. that makes sense, how would that work in real life? i promote culture yet i ban everything culture related?, yet it adds +5% espionage to passive leader... bogus

 

[Sgtslick]

Just posting my opinion on what's currently in game

2 old double positive = 4
new 2 single positive =2 + 1 negative= score of 1 vs old 4

or maybe its just my imagination that old positive have twice as much positive stuff than new positive traits which area really small

while all that aside some traits just silly together.. for example creative expansive cruel , creative adds culture, cruel takes it away.. that makes sense, how would that work in real life? i promote culture yet i ban everything culture related?, yet it adds +5% espionage to passive leader... bogus

Yes i know, the reshuffling of all the traits is yet to be done.

Here is the guideline ...

No positive stats for the Negative traits. I am not too picky on what they are only that negative traits are traits you do not want to have.

Can't you just go over your existing plans and then take out the benefits from it and leave the negative stuff?

Yes I could, I just thought the idea was to instead make them all positive/negative. Or are you saying to have positive/negative ones AND just negative. Or are u saying don't do this, simply redo negative and thats it?

I would like to just make the negative ones be on aggregate negative while positive on aggregate positive, with both having elements of each.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well pick a method. Don't have one be all positive and the other to be half positive and half negative. I don't care which was as long as its consistent.