Extra Traits for C2C

[ls612]

I don't think it should get any +% Science. This is a negative trait, it should only give penalties.

Alright, that sounds fine

 

[Mutasir]

I don't want to sound rude, but I just really, absolutely dislike these new traits. It isn't only the matter of balance (for example Hiram being now possibly the greatest moneymaker in the whole universe - two +1 commerce bonuses) but just an absolute randomness of pros and cons of every single one of them. "Idealistic" disadvantage gives penalty to great people birth rate and health, "Isolationism" bonus to research, "Politician" advantage is actually just a poor variant of "Spiritual"...

Can these new traits become optional, even if only for old leaders (from v23) and until they become, well, more refined ?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I haven't played with the new traits yet (still too focused on modding to play this time through) but I'd like to just suggest that rather than making some introductory pieces like this an option, we simply give pointed, meaningful feedback that suggests how you feel they should be changed, item by item. Some times, optionalizing something is going to put it out of the playtested realm for too many. They NEED the feedback to be improved. The mod is always a work in progress.

What I hear you saying, Mutasir, as well as some others, is that each benefit or penalty needs to be given a bit more rational and consideration for balance. So I'd request that rather than simply complaining that they aren't where they should be, instead suggest what you think they should be changed to and why.

 

[strategyonly]

So I'd request that rather than simply complaining that they aren't where they should be, instead suggest what you think they should be changed to and why.

Now thats sounds like a very reasonable way of handling the/a problem.

 

[ls612]

Now thats sounds like a very reasonable way of handling the/a problem.

Using my suggested nerf for Megalomaniac would be a good start.

 

[PKSRoman]

The best would be if traits (2 good, 1 bad) will be random generate for every era

 

[draz]

Speaking of traits, how come Mongkut and Mobutu both have 3 beneficial traits (and 1 of these new ones for a total of 4)?

 

[strategyonly]

Speaking of traits, how come Mongkut and Mobutu both have 3 beneficial traits (and 1 of these new ones for a total of 4)?

HUH??

Mongkut: 3

Spoiler :

<Traits>
				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_CREATIVE</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>
				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_PHILOSOPHICAL</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>
				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_FOREIGN</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>

Mobutu: 3

Spoiler :

<Traits>
				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_IMPERIALIST</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_BARBARIC</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>

				<Trait>
					<TraitType>TRAIT_CHARISMATIC</TraitType>
					<bTrait>1</bTrait>
				</Trait>
			</Traits>

 

[Sarah Starlight]

Azure has this new traits:

(November 2012)
suggest traits:
-Benevolent (spreads all life to as many planets as possible) +3- Good
-Annihilation (passion is exterminating all life in galaxy except their own) -3 Evil

 

[draz]

HUH??

This is how they are for me in Civilopedia:

http://imgur.com/a/SZHHR


Could just be some weird bug, since the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos (I just checked now) is like you said.

 

[strategyonly]

This is how they are for me in Civilopedia:

http://imgur.com/a/SZHHR


Could just be some weird bug, since the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos (I just checked now) is like you said.

Is that v23 by any chance?

 

[draz]

No, v23 didn't have those new negative traits (Foreign, Barbaric) yet.

Could it be because of the animated extra leaderheads, I installed that over the v24 installation? EDIT: Yep that was the cause, working like it's supposed to with just a fresh v24 install.

No extra leaderheads means no Henry the 8th tho.

 

[strategyonly]

No, v23 didn't have those new negative traits (Foreign, Barbaric) yet.

Oh thats right i was thinking v 24 PRE-release in the SVN, my bad.

 

[BlueGenie]

I don't want to sound rude, but I just really, absolutely dislike these new traits. It isn't only the matter of balance (for example Hiram being now possibly the greatest moneymaker in the whole universe - two +1 commerce bonuses) but just an absolute randomness of pros and cons of every single one of them. "Idealistic" disadvantage gives penalty to great people birth rate and health, "Isolationism" bonus to research, "Politician" advantage is actually just a poor variant of "Spiritual"...

Can these new traits become optional, even if only for old leaders (from v23) and until they become, well, more refined ?

Since I agree with the sentiment of not liking the set-up of the new negative traits I suppose I'll have to come with suggestions and constructive criticism. *wink*

My take on Traits:

I like the idea of having a slight downside to go with the positive traits we already have and that they should be looked over and changed around a bit on the leaders, fixed upper or so, maybe tweaking the existing ones too though that can come a little later.
But...
Negative Traits are not always negative traits as some have positive bonuses too. This should not be according to me.
I also believe that they have too many entries each. Reducing the amount of entries could enable having more negative traits but not so strong ones, which I also believe might be better.
Right now I avoid some of the leaders completely due to negative traits I abhor completely and others because I feel their negative sides are just too strongly accentuated for me to enjoy playing them. That for me indicates that something is wrong.
Some of the negative entries just seem too steep and more totally defining of the leader than a negative trait.
On top of those things some leaders have clashing positive and negative traits. I believe/feel that neither should negate even parts of each other.

Here is how I would like to have the negative traits:
1 Primary detrimental entry.
1 or 2 Secondary detrimental entries.
No positive entries.
Not compatible with some positive traits.


Trait changes a'la me:

Spoiler :

Anti Clerical
-1 and -1 from Priest Specialist
+4 to RevIdx penalty from Non State Holy City
40% change to Revolution Penalty from Non State
-2city for having a State being present there, or if hard to do just -2
I'd remove the reduction in GP Birth Rate as it's only Great Prophet that should be affected. Not sure how much weight the Rev entries carry so leaving them as are and counting them as 1 entry.
Should not be on a leader with the Charismatic or Spiritual Trait.

Arrogant
-15% Espionage
-5% GP Birth Rate
No leaders have this Trait at all, is this why it's not been given any entries? Anyway; - GP Birth Rate is to symbolize how the leader doesn't believe any one else can measure up to his/her standard. Espionage reduction due to being arrogant enough to not believe any other nations can touch him/her.
Should not be on a leader with the Deciever, Philosophical, or Politician Traits.

Barbaric
-15%
-2/City
-10% Worker and settler unit production.
Adding reduced worker/settler production to symbolize the barbarian nature of not settling/improving as much but only by 10% as the culture hit is the main culprit here.
Should not be on a leader with the Charismatic, Creative or Imperialistic Traits.

Cruel (Change name to Tyrant?)
-25% Military Production
-2)/City
-5%
I'd remove the bonuses of Wonder production and Espionage Points as they are positive, not negative. Adding the penalty in Military Production fits with keeping other leaders culled and 5% instead of 15% reduction in culture because I feel 15% is just too steep for a secondary entry.
Should not be on a leader with the Charismatic, Creative or Politician Traits.

Excessive
-10%
-5%
What did health and GP Birth Rate reduction have to do with being excessive/having an opulent court? Also removing the positive entries while adding entries I see as better fitting with the name of it.
Should not be on a leader with the Financial, Organized, or Scientific Traits.

Fanatical
-10%
-10% GP Birth Rate
Science reduction to 10% instead of 15% as 15% is a huge amount. Added reduction in GP rate due to the fanatical nature of not listening to reason. Removed positive entries.
Should not be on a leader with the Financial, Philosophical, or Scientific Traits.

Foreign (change name to Foreign Ruler?)
-10%
-5%
-5% GP Birth Rate
Lack of understanding the peoples culture leads to reduced productivity, technological progress, and enlightened people. Some of the original entries I don't quite understand (except the positive ones which I'd remove anyway).
No other Traits barred due to the nature of the Trait though I suggest steering it away from the Philosophical and Scientific Traits.

Hunter-Gatherer
-25% Trade Route Yield
-2 from farms
-2/city
Reduced TRY from not having enough to trade properly. Health changed from positive to negative as grown and traded food is good for people as it gives more variation to the diet than hunting/gathering can accomplish. Removed reduced culture as many traits have that as well as not really having anything to do with hunter-gatherers.
Should not be on a leader with the Agricultural, Expansive, or Financial Traits.

Idealistic
+15% Civic Upkeep
-5% GP Birth Rate
-10% Great General Emergence
Removed and changes as it'd be too many entries.
Should not be on a leader with the Aggressive, Imperialistic, Organized or Philosophical Traits.

Isolationist
-50% Trade Route Yield from Foreign Nations
-10%
-1/city
I'd set both TRY's in one entry. It's so seldom is part of TR's anyway. Also set it to be only for Foreign TR's and not Domestic ones. Health is because people are less healthy when isolated, we need exposure to variations of germs to build our immune defence.
Should not be on a leader with the Creative, Expansive, or Financial Traits.

Megalomaniac
-20% Wonder Production
-1/city
-5% Espionage
The greatest ruler probably wants much art and stories about him/her-self so not less . Besides which this trait had as many positive entries as negative ones, and half decent ones at that. I also don't understand what conquests has to do with being a megalomaniac. All leaders currently having this trait are conquerors. Wonder penalty is due to wanting grandiose projects to show off how great a leader he/she is.
Should not be on a leader with the Charismatic, Deceiver, Industrious, Politician, or Progressist Traits.

Populist
+15% City Maintenance
-10% Espionage
I changed Civic Upkeep to City Maintenance because we already have a negative trait that gives + to Civic Upkeep and city maintenance fits just as well if not better in keeping with allocating resources to the general populace. Which is also the reason to remove the negative health. Reduced Espionage is because more resources are allocated at home too.
Should not be on a leader with the Deceiver Trait.

Revolutionary
-25% Great General Emergence
-5%
-5%
Lacking legitimacy fewer generals join his/her cause. His/her peers keep a bit behind for themselves resulting in slightly lower production and commerce. Yes I turned the GG bonus around to a penalty instead.
Should not be on a leader with the Aggressive, Financial or Imperialistic Traits.

Schemer
-15% Great Person Birth Rate
+5% XP needed for Unit Promotions
-10% Great General Emergence
Added GP reduction to better fit my opinion of being a schemer and how other leaders in the nation view it and not wanting to join.
Should not be on a leader with the Aggressive, Charismatic, Philosophical, Imperialistic, or Progressist Traits.

Semi-Civilized
I am not sure if Semi-Civilized is supposed to be a negative or positive trait and no leaders currently have it anyway. I'd think it could fit with some leaders/nations though, some of the more nomadic ones and also with Bedouin and Romani if they ever get included. I didn't do anything with this trait because of that.

Temperamental
-25% to City Defence within own borders
+5% XP needed for Unit Promotion
-1/city
To symbolize rather pushing into enemy territory the leaders city defenders get a penalty to city defence and cities get less health as the leader puts more effort into conquest than keeping things well at home.
Should not be on a leader with the Charismatic or Expansive Traits.

I did not add any more negative traits though I feel there's room for more.

While I'm at it: why doesn't Seafaring Trait get free naval promotions on ships and increased on Harbour line buildings?

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The best would be if traits (2 good, 1 bad) will be random generate for every era

Work was started on designing something like this and then there is the Dynamic Traits mod.

My view is that you should get to chose all traits as you progress in the game along with negative ones. At set points era change you get a list of traits to choose from and you must choose a minimum number from the bad as well as the god available. The ones available would be based loosely on what you have done.

 

[Sgtslick]

A lot of your suggestions blue genie can't be done or at least I don't know how to code it and have no intention of trying. Instead of attempting to rewrite the entire thing and wasting your time - direct your feedback to my list of proposed changes and add possible entries to it.

Spoiler :

Ill keep a list of changes that the c2c team want to do and the good suggestions made by people including myself

PROPOSED TRAIT AMENDMENTS

• Redundant & inappropriate traits. Such as traits that don't 'fit' the leader. Also traits that have no real bonus/penalty because its already in a trait that that leader has.
  This means anyone with a BARBARIC trait cannot be AGGRESSIVE as well because this would make the COMBAT1 for MELEE units redundant.
  -Chief Head Hunter
  -Genghis Khan
  -Ragnar
  -Shaka
  
• PROGRESSIST - How do people feel about the upgrade outside of borders ability for this trait. I think it is extremely powerful. However I like it a lot. This trait needs to be nerfed I think.
  Such as change <iLevelExperienceModifier>15</iLevelExperienceModifier> to
  <iLevelExperienceModifier>35</iLevelExperienceModifier>
  Also maybe get rid of the Combat1 for guns so only ASSAULT MECH and HITECH ? Keep in mind AGGRESSIVE TRAIT also gets combat1 for these units so these traits are therefore mutually exclusive ( thus Frederick has to be changed - thanks Acularius )
  
• Even out the spread of traits, some traits have lots of leaders and some only have very few, such as PROGRESSIST which only has FREDERICK. MEGALOMANIAC has 10 leaders, revolutionary has 5 for instance. DECEIVER has 3, HUMANITARIAN has 4, SCIENTIFIC has only MANSA MUSA. AGGRESSIVE HAS 23.
  
• AGGRESSIVE EXCESSIVE combo could be too strong I think, free COMBAT1 + CITY_RAIDER1 for all melee units out of the box is kinda OP. This is a good way to trim down aggressive leaders and switch them to deciever, humanitarian, scientific etc.
  -ATTILA
  -BOUDICA
  -HEKE
  -SITTING BULL ( he has protective, nomad, excessive - each giving him free promotions- currently one of the best leaders in the game therefore in my opinion. *[Change nomad to humanitarian maybe]*
  
• Rewrite trait descriptions- although I like the current descriptions they sometimes don't reflect the bonus/penalty. Also none of the building modifiers are listed. Although there aren't that many, players need this valuable info.
  
• SCHEMER trait might need adjusting, it wasn't in the civ4traitinfos.xml so I haven't touched it/thought about it. Thoughts?
  
• Update new leaders such as Italian leaders.
  
• POLITICIAN trait has <fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>0.5</fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>
  Which is a +50% modifier to having your state religion in the city. It also get +100% production for POLIS COUNCIL. These aren't listed.
  Despite these two things, this trait seems a little bare im not sure.
  
• REVOLUTIONARY the max anarchy 3 is too strong I think. Since overall these new traits are supposed to be negative albeit sometimes marginally, I think this facet of the trait (max anarchy 3) is kinda too good. I think subtract the free LOYAL promotion for spies. Also make the -1 gold per city -2 ??
  
• MEGALOMANIAC the +4% +3% and -20% culture doesn't really 'fit' the trait, I also feel this is too strong. +10% to civic upkeep maybe?
  
• EXPANSIVE +4 health, maybe reduce to +3? Also Industrious +35% -> +40%? Was thinking scientific deserve +2% science to make it 12%?
  
• BARBARIC needs a slight nerf I think, such as a penalty when building universities -30% production and theatres -25%.
  

Thats it for now but as things come up ill adjust the list.

As a whole I like the idea of these traits having some positive effects although being as a whole more negative than positive, and am not gonna change it to be purely negative. If u guys wanna do that do it urself. Im happy to make them overall more negative and some of my proposed changes listed above for anyone who bothered to read it, address this somewhat. In particular I say that revolutionary, megalomaniac, barbaric and progressist all need to be nerfed and made more negative (although progressist is a positive trait, it needs to be nerfed) and give suggestions on how to do this. Further suggestions in this vein would be appreciated. If you feel other traits need to be nerfed too, state your case but give examples/alternatives that can be coded into civ4traitinfos.xml or im not interested.

* Seafaring Trait get free speed promotion on ships (are canoe's/rafts considered ships in terms of unit types?) and only +1 health instead of 2. This sounds good. Might be a bit too strong come to think of it, since they get amphibious on melee units already (which gives +10% combat remember)

 

[Sgtslick]

Any more help/suggestions would be appreciated. I don't want to do any changes/fixes until I have a finalised list and strategyonly (possibly others too) agree with the changes/suggestions. Otherwise I could be wasting my time. As i've said im happy to make them more negative, I just need some more specific examples of how to do this. Generally, only include variables that are already apart of the trait system. Building modifiers can be used also, such as -50% build speed for such and such building. Currently building modifiers are apart of these new traits, they are just not listed in the trait descriptions in game. Progressist build slave markets faster, political build polis council quicker, hunter gatherer build slower granaries, these are some examples of building modifiers currently in the traits.

 

[BlueGenie]

The only other suggestion I can come with is this:
Consider the negative trait entries on a Trait and if you would ever play a leader with that Trait if you didn't have anything that countered those trait entries.
If yes then al-right.
If no then change it so it would be yes.

Cheers

 

[Sgtslick]

I don't think any are too negative, definately not to the point where I wouldn't consider playing them because of this, so all yes.

I do agree with your general view/idea from earlier Blue Genie that trait +'s and -'s need to be appropriate or consistent with there title. In a lot of cases its not that I have decided on these specifically, it was more about getting all the info 'out there' and from there it can be refined. Some things such as which civs have which traits I didn't even look at the leaders names when I was giving them out for example, so no thought at all went into it.

I also agree this point you made.
and changes as its in too many entries.

In terms of Fanatical for example, you say -15% is a huge amount, I agree, but consider what they get also. FLANKING1, GUERILLA1 for all mounted wheeled recon etc. SPEED for recon. These are really STRONG. They also get +1 happy from incense.
So essentially the -15% science is the only negative. In my current GEM game im playing spain for instance, its fine, my explorers are awesome, I basically use them as my main military unit.

 

[BlueGenie]

Incense is so unlikely to be gotten so that +1 I hardly count. It's a bonus in the unlikelihood that you do manage to get an Incense is all.

As for the -15% it's more than simply 15% behind in the technology race, you're also later on the technologies that give buildings/civics that increase your so in essence you are quite a bit further behind than the number 15% would indicate.
It is not until you get to have several other +% that those 15% start counting as less and you catch up a bit more. As for reducing it that was also if the positive entries in the Trait were removed. Having other things making up for the lack in makes it a different way yo play is all.
I'm still not happy about negative Traits having too many, or any, positive entries. For me having negative Traits means two or more leaders with the same positive Traits can still be different due to having different negative Traits.

I'd also like to point out that all the -% trait entries, not just the -%, are a lot more detrimental in the start of the game until the numbers for the changed % entry start increasing and a bunch of +% buildings/civics become available, basically around mid to late Classical Era.
That does mean that if one falls too far behind in the two early Eras the game could be lost already so throwing in too many high -% is dangerous, which certainly includes the -15%.
Even with the positive entries I'd reduce those -15 or higher %-ages to at most -10%, possibly even less.

Cheers