See my post on the other thread (that AIAndy links to above) - was it even your intent to add 4/pop/turn over 100 or just 4/turn??
Extra Traits for C2C
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
See my post on the other thread (that AIAndy links to above) - was it even your intent to add 4/pop/turn over 100 or just 4/turn??
When I first put them in I said I didn't really know whether these values would be ok. I simply copied AIAndy's example that he gave me - here:
I just copied this code and changed the 2 to 4, -4 etc.
"This property source reduces crime by 2 per population in all cities of the one with the trait if the city has more than 10 crime per population."
I read this as whenever crime is at 10 per pop it becomes 8. I don't understand where the 100 comes into things.
Spoiler :
I just copied this code and changed the 2 to 4, -4 etc.
"This property source reduces crime by 2 per population in all cities of the one with the trait if the city has more than 10 crime per population."
I read this as whenever crime is at 10 per pop it becomes 8. I don't understand where the 100 comes into things.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Desolator
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 107
Does anyone else think that the 3 trait system is very unbalanced at it's present state?
Eg.
- Arrogant is a "bad" trait by name, but in effect is is a very good one. Max 6 turns of anarchy is a very good thing especially with slower speeds.
- Some good traits also have bad effects, eg. Agressive causes crime, so some leaders have "more bad than good". Eg. with Genghis Khan or Geronimo the AI or player will suffer very heavyly. Aggressive: +30 crime PER TURN if crime rate is above 150 AND + 40 crime PER TURN if city is bigger than 15.
Also some bad traits have good things too, Cruel + wonder prod, and espionage, etc.
- Henry VIII, Hirohito: Protective and Cruel, -2 crime if crime is bigger than pop ×10, and +2 crime is crime is bigger than pop x15 (-2 kicks in earlier, so with other crime factors they will only cancel each other out)
- Ivan IV: Aressive/cruel also much crime.
- Churchill: Charismatic, foreign, +1 happiness, -1 happiness.
- Macdonald: Expansive, Excessive, +4 health, -2 health.
And so on
I know is is hard to design good traits, and balance them, but I think the traits now are in very early alpha state (I almost hate choosing leaders). Is anyone working on them to improve it?
Eg.
- Arrogant is a "bad" trait by name, but in effect is is a very good one. Max 6 turns of anarchy is a very good thing especially with slower speeds.
- Some good traits also have bad effects, eg. Agressive causes crime, so some leaders have "more bad than good". Eg. with Genghis Khan or Geronimo the AI or player will suffer very heavyly. Aggressive: +30 crime PER TURN if crime rate is above 150 AND + 40 crime PER TURN if city is bigger than 15.
Also some bad traits have good things too, Cruel + wonder prod, and espionage, etc.
- Henry VIII, Hirohito: Protective and Cruel, -2 crime if crime is bigger than pop ×10, and +2 crime is crime is bigger than pop x15 (-2 kicks in earlier, so with other crime factors they will only cancel each other out)
- Ivan IV: Aressive/cruel also much crime.
- Churchill: Charismatic, foreign, +1 happiness, -1 happiness.
- Macdonald: Expansive, Excessive, +4 health, -2 health.
And so on
I know is is hard to design good traits, and balance them, but I think the traits now are in very early alpha state (I almost hate choosing leaders). Is anyone working on them to improve it?
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
Jep, I also think it's unbalanced. I just had a brief look because I wanted so badly to simply play a game, but as far as I remind Frederic II (Germany) has pretty awesome stats and not a real negative one.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
They were even more so until AIAndy made some corrections. Crime was going to be rampant in the ones you've listed once your city hit 10 pop. Which is way too low a pop setting and way to strong in it's effects. If crime is going to be affected by city pop levels then 10 is too low. This wrecks the early game. Pop should maybe have been pushed to city size 25 to have the effects pushed out now. Hydro would need more anti crime bldgs to balance.
Yes choosing a leader has become a challenge, and I do not mean that in a fun way. Because you can't change their traits but thru the Random Personality Option. And then anything can happen.
You basically want you leader to have These 5 traits: Expansive, Humanitarian, Seafaring, Semi-Civilized (very rare trait), and Barbarian (another rare trait).
And you want to avoid: Idealistic, Populist, Excessive, Aggressive. There are some others but still digging thru them.
JosEPh
At least aggressive is so bad it has to be changed in a patch IMO. Civs with that trait will simply explode once they hit about classical. The effect is an almost uncontrollable accelerant to crime levels that take you from a stable level of 149, to a stable level of 450 with the addition of 1 crime per turn. It's no at all progressive, an it's also far too large.
Note - I confess a personal interest since I drew Ghengis Kahn in the massive MP game, but that just made me think about it. I don't believe it invalidates the argument.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I have Augustus Caesar and need to look deeper into Megalomaniac.
After looking at Traits some more Semi-Civilized isn't assigned to anyone. Wonder who was supposed to get it?
There are 14 leaders with Aggressive.
JosEPh
After looking at Traits some more Semi-Civilized isn't assigned to anyone. Wonder who was supposed to get it?
There are 14 leaders with Aggressive.
JosEPh
Oh great, another patch. Wasn't this what the Long Freeze was supposed to be about avoiding?
At any rate, I don't think Aggressive is too bad, remember they will be a veritable military machine with free Combat I for all interested parties. But it is slightly off-balance, just not to the point where I think a patch is required.
At any rate, I don't think Aggressive is too bad, remember they will be a veritable military machine with free Combat I for all interested parties. But it is slightly off-balance, just not to the point where I think a patch is required.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
OK, now that you guys narrowed it down to be, not balanced, give SgtSlick an idea of what YOU think it should be, thx.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@SO,
Personally I don't think any Leader should Give or Reduce Crime.
There is one trait that I still can't figure out what it's doing with Crime. You have this little Blue icon with what looks to be a human from the waist up with arms extended which is then Multiplied ( silver dot) by -3/2(Crime symbol)/Times(silver dot)10.
Is it reducing crime by -3/2 in every city with pop over 10? What? I can't tell.
This is going to take some more time to digest and play with.
Also more often than not each Trait adds to Civic maintenance some as high as 40%. with 3 traits you can have 120% Civic Maint. Average trait combos range from 70% to 100%. Do not know what this will do in later game.
For Aggressive alone the 10 pop is too low a pop level and comes too early in the game with out adequate Crime fighting counters. IF it's kept the pop level needs to be doubled at the very least to 20 pop, if not higher at 25 pop.
Anyway as Koshling pointed out once you hit 150 crime it going to runaway with itself. And runaway Crime will then end that game.
JosEPh
Personally I don't think any Leader should Give or Reduce Crime.
There is one trait that I still can't figure out what it's doing with Crime. You have this little Blue icon with what looks to be a human from the waist up with arms extended which is then Multiplied ( silver dot) by -3/2(Crime symbol)/Times(silver dot)10.
Is it reducing crime by -3/2 in every city with pop over 10? What? I can't tell.
This is going to take some more time to digest and play with.
Also more often than not each Trait adds to Civic maintenance some as high as 40%. with 3 traits you can have 120% Civic Maint. Average trait combos range from 70% to 100%. Do not know what this will do in later game.
For Aggressive alone the 10 pop is too low a pop level and comes too early in the game with out adequate Crime fighting counters. IF it's kept the pop level needs to be doubled at the very least to 20 pop, if not higher at 25 pop.
Anyway as Koshling pointed out once you hit 150 crime it going to runaway with itself. And runaway Crime will then end that game.
JosEPh
Arrogant is not one of my traits, its an oversight from SO which he is fixing at some point.
The crime you listed all fixed already in the current state.
The +1
-1 is not really that big a deal. I certainly wouldn't call it 'unbalanced'. Its awkward and not very elegant, but nothing to do with balance.Its because his 3rd trait is broken, SO is fixing this hopefully soon.
AIAndy changed the crime to the level they are now, perhaps he needs to adjust them further (if he doesn't mind) or instruct me as to the values he wants them.
No-one is getting it, its a 3rd trait that isn't negative, its going to get deleted. Pretend its not there.
Oh great, another patch. Wasn't this what the Long Freeze was supposed to be about avoiding?
AIAndy did change the crime for the traits during the freeze remember. If crime for Aggressive gets reduced further hopefully this will fix it.
Ask AIAndy not SO.
+120% Civic maintenance isn't much in real terms. Prior to medieval it might add like $5-10 in costs per turn. Late game it might add like $30-60, this is when your income would be ALOT. That is why I have increased this even further in my latest changes.
The point about crime has been established thanks for the feedback.
@SO
I cleared Arrogant & semi civilized from these two files, schemer is still somewhere though.
edit: Maybe this is why I can't find schemer, you also called it reckless?
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS</Tag>
<English>Schemer</English>
Yup thats it, its called reckless in the traitinfos.xml and schemer in the CIV4GameText_Third_Traits.xml
Anyway im deleting it from both.
Re-attached.
Ill reload c2c and see if its fixed.
Ok just need to fix the leaderheadinfos and the extra leaderheads too.
I cleared Arrogant & semi civilized from these two files, schemer is still somewhere though.
edit: Maybe this is why I can't find schemer, you also called it reckless?
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS</Tag>
<English>Schemer</English>
Yup thats it, its called reckless in the traitinfos.xml and schemer in the CIV4GameText_Third_Traits.xml
Anyway im deleting it from both.
Re-attached.
Ill reload c2c and see if its fixed.
Ok just need to fix the leaderheadinfos and the extra leaderheads too.
The values are lower than they used to be but I agree that they are still too high (with some of them it is just more obvious compared to the amount per population before the change).
So I'd say significantly reduce the amount per turn on aggressive and nomad (to maybe 10 or 15 per turn) and increase when they become active (city size 20 for nomad, crime at 200 for aggressive).
At the same time reduce the effect of protective to -1 per turn and population (would be too strong compared to the other crime effects otherwise).
Also reduce the effect of cruel and barbaric to 1 per turn and population (and increase the population level when it becomes active on barbaric from 5 to 10 or so).
I can do it but I think you should take over that part again, Sgtslick, as they are your traits and that will give you an idea how the property manipulators with expressions work.
So I'd say significantly reduce the amount per turn on aggressive and nomad (to maybe 10 or 15 per turn) and increase when they become active (city size 20 for nomad, crime at 200 for aggressive).
At the same time reduce the effect of protective to -1 per turn and population (would be too strong compared to the other crime effects otherwise).
Also reduce the effect of cruel and barbaric to 1 per turn and population (and increase the population level when it becomes active on barbaric from 5 to 10 or so).
I can do it but I think you should take over that part again, Sgtslick, as they are your traits and that will give you an idea how the property manipulators with expressions work.
Ok here we go, all those leaders now changed and reckless/schemer Semi-civilized & arrogant all gone. Traits not showing in civilopedia though for some reason.. no idea why.
edit: ok I included AIAndy's crime suggestions in here aswell.
As far as traits menu in civilopedia - can someone tell me why its not showing up? I thought it was the CIV4GameText_Third_Traits.xml that I changed but I went back to original and it still wouldn't work. I can't see why it'd be the CIV4TraitInfos.xml or the leaderheadsinfos.xml, no idea really, i've looked over them all a couple of times and can't find any errors, and get no error popup..
*deleted*
edit: ok I included AIAndy's crime suggestions in here aswell.
As far as traits menu in civilopedia - can someone tell me why its not showing up? I thought it was the CIV4GameText_Third_Traits.xml that I changed but I went back to original and it still wouldn't work. I can't see why it'd be the CIV4TraitInfos.xml or the leaderheadsinfos.xml, no idea really, i've looked over them all a couple of times and can't find any errors, and get no error popup..
*deleted*
Traits in the Sevopedia are done in a weird way. It expects a concept page that is named depending on the trait and if it is missing for any traits, it runs into Python errors.Ok here we go, all those leaders now changed and reckless/schemer Semi-civilized & arrogant all gone. Traits not showing in civilopedia though for some reason.. no idea why.
I want to change that at some point so it uses the normal pedia key tag from traits instead of this weird concept way but for now you need to make sure that the concept pages are there.
Similar threads
