That about covers it. I tried to make it so that all Positive traits had only Positive effects and all Negative traits had only negative effects.
Extra Traits for C2C
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
That about covers it. I tried to make it so that all Positive traits had only Positive effects and all Negative traits had only negative effects.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I think you created another problem, see screenie.
Before I updated to SVN 4303 I was making 159 gold/turn. After the update and re calc I'm making 2146 gold/turn.
Why? Because there is No Expenses now! Nada! Zip! And this is after 2 recalc's and 2 turns of play.
I think you screwed the pooch buddy.
JosEPh
Before I updated to SVN 4303 I was making 159 gold/turn. After the update and re calc I'm making 2146 gold/turn.
Why? Because there is No Expenses now! Nada! Zip! And this is after 2 recalc's and 2 turns of play.
I think you screwed the pooch buddy.
JosEPh
I think you created another problem, see screenie.
Before I updated to SVN 4303 I was making 159 gold/turn. After the update and re calc I'm making 2146 gold/turn.
Why? Because there is No Expenses now! Nada! Zip! And this is after 2 recalc's and 2 turns of play.
I think you screwed the pooch buddy.
JosEPh
Woah. I don't see how my changes could have caused that, I infact should have added costs, as before there was a major bug that prevented building costs from counting!
Edit: Here's a screenie of my game (SVN 4303). I have no shortage of expenses.
Attachments
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
At least I got plenty of Gold on Normal now! 
JosEPh
JosEPh
Is612...
You ask me if its alright to completely change the traits i've worked on here for months 2 days ago (saturday in australia) and then implement those changes without even so much as giving me the respect of letting me see or discuss them.
I have spent many many hours giving you guys help/feedback/bug fixing/balance advice, not to mention rearranging all of the leaderheads and bringing all of the traits up from what they were - original ROM AND traits - to what they are now, and then you just feel you can come in and sh1t all over them in a weekend.
I feel really shocked that you have done this and frankly no longer want to have any thing to do with you or this mod.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I find it easier displayed as this:
Positive
Aggressive (Current):
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
- +10 crime in City if Crime > 200
Aggressive (ls612's Proposal):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I and Combat II for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
Aggressive (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings (Barracks and Drydocks)
Aggressive (Our Proposal (with Minor Negative)):
- +10% War Weariness accumulated during war (may require a new tag?)
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
Aggressive (Our Proposal (without Minor Negative)):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
I strongly feel most units jumping up to Combat II is too strong, but I'm all for vastly widening the units that would receive the Combat I bonus. If we opt for our 'positive' traits having a slight negative on each, which provides some room for improvement via Trait upgrades from a project to come, then it would stand to reason that Aggressive leaders may have a nation that grows impatient with war faster than others as they generally suffer it more commonly and are constantly living with the expectation that they will be at war again soon if at peace currently.
Agricultural (Current):
- +65% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 5
- Production bonuses for Agricultural buildings
Agricultural (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 food for all plots
- Production bonuses for Agricultural buildings
Agricultural (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food on plots with 3 or more
- Double Production Speed of Great Farmer and Agricultural Buildings
- Workers work 25% faster (maybe a new tag could help define what tasks specifically so that we can restrict to agricultural improvements only)
- +1 Unhealth/city (Due to excessive fertilizers, chemicals, and a general overfeeding of society and thus obesity.)
Agricultural (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food on plots with 3 or more
- Double Production Speed of Great Farmer and Agricultural Buildings
- Workers work 25% faster (maybe a new tag could help define what tasks specifically so that we can restrict to agricultural improvements only)
Charismatic (Current):
- +1 happiness per City
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- -25% XP needed for promotion
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Charismatic (ls612's Proposal):
- +3 happiness per City
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Charismatic (Vanilla BtS):
- +1 happiness per City
- +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Center
- -25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
Charismatic (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 happiness per City
- -25% XP needed for promotion (hands off this!!!! This is the whole purpose in taking this trait!)
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center, Monument, Broadcast Center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
- -10% Espionage Defense in all cities (Not sure if we need a new tag for this but it would be to represent the leader's tendency to be overly verbal and open with the public.)
Charismatic (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 happiness per City
- -25% XP needed for promotion (hands off this!!!! This is the whole purpose in taking this trait!)
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center, Monument, Broadcast Center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (Current):
- +2 culture per City
- +55% Civic Upkeep
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (ls612's Proposal):
- +20%
- +2 culture per City
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (Vanilla BtS):
- +2 culture per City
- Double Production Speed of Library, Theatre, Colosseum
Creative (Our Proposal (with a slight Negative)):
- +20%
- +2 culture per City
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
- -1 :Hammers: per City
Otherwise, our Proposal matches ls612's. I think the +% culture helps this otherwise fairly weak trait tremendously.
Deciever (Current):
- +3 espionage per City
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Deciever (ls612's Proposal):
- +3 espionage per City
- +20% espionage
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Deciever (Our Proposal(with slight negative)):
- +2 espionage per City
- +15% espionage (espionage is more effective than culture + the following 2 promos. Too much espionage benefit could be far too OP rather quickly.)
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
- +1 Crime per Population (the populace tends to follow their leader as a prime example of behavior)
Deciever (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +2 espionage per City
- +10% espionage (As 5% of the above was to help counter the crime being a fairly strong penalty)
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Expansive (Current):
- +4 health per City
- Production bonuses for Workers
- +65% Civic Upkeep
Expansive (ls612's Proposal):
- +4 health per City
- Production bonuses for Workers
Expansive (ls612's Proposal):
- +2 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- Double Production Speed of Granary, Harbor
Expansive (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +3 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- +25% Bonus to Worker Production Speed
- Double Production Speed of Granary and all other food storage buildings
- -25% Upkeep for # of Cities and Upkeep for Distance to Capital
- +25% Civic Upkeep (greater expense in Bureaucracy to manage the expansive goals of the empire)
Expansive (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +3 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- +25% Bonus to Worker Production Speed
- Double Production Speed of Granary and all other food storage buildings
- -25% Upkeep for # of Cities
Financial (Current):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 4 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- +65% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Financial (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 4 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Financial (Vanilla BtS):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 2 or more
Financial (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 2 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
- -10% Culture per City (stodgy financiers tend to care less about the arts)
B]Financial (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):[/B]
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 3 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Humanitarian (Current):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- Free Medic I for Recon units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Some weird Crime modifier
Humanitarian (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Humanitarian (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon and Healer units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Original Crime modifier -2 crime per 3 Population (makes sense - pick up those at the bottom of society and you'll have less crime)
- Disease modifier -1 disease per Population (providing for the people helps keep things in check)
- -5% Gold (not commerce) (tends to be a bit too generous with the people)
Humanitarian (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon and Healer units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Crime modifier -1 crime per Population
- Disease modifier -1 disease per Population
Imperialistic (Current):
- +100% GG emergence
- +80% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Imperialistic (ls612's Proposal):
- +100% GG emergence
- +2 happiness per City
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Imperialistic (Vanilla BtS):
- +100% GG emergence
- 50% faster Production of Settlers
Imperialistic (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% GG emergence
- Free City Raider I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
- +50% Civic Upkeep
Imperialistic (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% GG emergence
- Free City Raider I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Industrious (Current):
- +35% Wonder production
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Industrious (ls612's Proposal):
- +15% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 3 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Industrious (Vanilla BtS):
- +50% Wonder production
- Double Production Speed of Forge
Industrious (Our Proposal(with slight negative)):
- +25% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 5 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
- -1 Happiness in every city (life is too dull and committed to work for most citizens)
- -5% Research in every city (too many brilliant minds are slanted into lives of labor)
- +1 Air Pollution from each Production Building
Industrious (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +20% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 6 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Nomad (Current):
- +35% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness from Camels
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- More Crime
Nomad (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness from Camels, Horses, and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Hunters, Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Mounted, Recon and Hunter units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Research in all cities
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I, Guerilla I and Speed for Hunters, Animals, Canines, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Research in all cities
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Speed for Hunters, Animals, Canines, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
Organized (Current):
- -40% Civic Upkeep
- +10% XP needed for promotions
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Organized (ls612's Proposal):
- -30% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for promotions
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Organized (Vanilla Bts):
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Production Speed of Lighthouse, Factory, Courthouse
Organized (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- -50% Civic Upkeep, Upkeep from Distance to City, Upkeep from # of Cities, Upkeep from Corporations
- -10% XP needed for promotions (I agree... more rigid disciplined approach to training)
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
- -15% Production speed of all units (over planning and being completely thorough creates delays in training and vehicle construction)
Organized (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- -50% Civic Upkeep, Upkeep from # of Cities
- -10% XP needed for promotions (I agree... more rigid disciplined approach to training)
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Philosophical (Current):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- +100% GPP
- +1 unhappiness from Fur
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Philosophical (ls612's Proposal):
- +100% GPP
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Philosophical (Vanilla BtS):
- +100% GPP
- Double Production Speed of University
Philosophical (Our Proposal(with slight negative):
- +100% GPP
- +25% Wonder Build rate (creates a nice synergy with Industrious - Philosophers dream big)
- +5% Culture (focused on arts and sciences as values)
- +5% Research
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Units require +10% more experience to promote (War is generally a painful distraction to more interesting and important developments)
Philosophical (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +75% GPP
- +25% Wonder Build rate (creates a nice synergy with Industrious - Philosophers dream big)
- +5% Culture (focused on arts and sciences as values)
- +5% Research
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Protective (Current):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gun, and Hi-Tech units
- +80% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
Protective (ls612's Proposal):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gun, and Hi-Tech units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
Protective (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gunpowder
- Double Production speed of Walls, Castles
Protective (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- Free City Garrison I for Garrisoneer SubCombat Classes
- Free Drill I for all Ranged units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
- +1 :happy: for Defensive Buildings
- +10% Espionage Defense in all cities
- +25% Upkeep from Distance to Palace (spends more on exterior defense)
- + 10% unit upkeep (spends more on drilling and ongoing training)
- -1 Commerce from Trade (side effect of being paranoid of incoming merchants)
Protective (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- Free City Garrison I for Garrisoneer SubCombat Classes
- Free Drill I for all Ranged units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
- +10% Espionage Defense in all cities
Scientific (Current):
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- +1 science per City
- +12% Science
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Scientific (ls612's Proposal):
- +20:science per City (???????? is this a typo or just way out of whack?)
- +12% Science
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Scientific (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 science per City
- +12% Science
- +1 science for Science Buildings
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Military Unit Production in all cities (yes, cumulatively combining to -10%)
Scientific (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 science per City
- +10% Science
- +1 science for Science Buildings
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Seafaring (Current):
- Free Combat I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for many Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Seafaring (ls612's Proposal):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for many Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Seafaring (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for Combatant Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
- +1 food/water tile
- +1 Water Pollution/population
Seafaring (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for Combatant Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Agrees with ls612, though I strongly favor the slight negative on these positive traits!
Spiritual (Current):
- Max 2 turns of Anarchy
- +55% Civic Upkeep
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
Spiritual (ls612's Proposal):
- Max 2 turns of Anarchy
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
Spiritual (Vanilla Bts):
- No Anarchy
- Double Production Speed of Temple
Spiritual (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- -50% turns of Anarchy on Civic Changes (needs a new tag - otherwise Max 2 turns works for now)
- -100% turns of Anarchy on Religion Changes
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
- +1 Culture per city
- +1 Culture, Happiness, Gold per State Religious building (probably needs new tags)
- +35% Civic Upkeep
- -1 Diplomacy hit on all Leaders with a differing State Religion (probably needs a new tag)
Spiritual (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- -50% turns of Anarchy on Civic Changes (needs a new tag - otherwise Max 2 turns works for now)
- -100% turns of Anarchy on Religion Changes
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
- +1 Culture, Happiness, Gold per State Religious building (probably needs new tags)
Progressive (Current):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Combat I for Gun, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech units
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Progressive (ls612's Proposal):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Combat I for Gun, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech units
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Progressive (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Military Instructor in every city (Free Combat I overlaps with Aggressive and would make for a bad combination as a result)
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
- -10% GPP rate in every city
Progressive (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- Free Military Instructor in every city (Free Combat I overlaps with Aggressive and would make for a bad combination as a result)
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Politician (Current):
- Max 3 turns of Anarchy
- +1 happiness per City
- +10% GPPs.
- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
Politician (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 per City
- +10% GPPs.
- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
Politician (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- -50% Civic change Anarchy (without new tag: Max 3 turns of Anarchy)
- +1 per City
- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- -1 gold from all Administration Buildings
Politician (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- -50% Civic change Anarchy (without new tag: Max 4 turns of Anarchy)
- +1 per City
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
I've noticed, ls612, even in your proposals you have some negatives on positive traits. I think its a good thing to give a bit of a counterbalance as no one strategy or personality is without weakness.
And of all the proposals here, the one to take out the -25% experience needed for upgrade on Charismatic is the one I REALLY have a problem with.
Positive
Aggressive (Current):
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
- +10 crime in City if Crime > 200
Aggressive (ls612's Proposal):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I and Combat II for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
Aggressive (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings (Barracks and Drydocks)
Aggressive (Our Proposal (with Minor Negative)):
- +10% War Weariness accumulated during war (may require a new tag?)
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
Aggressive (Our Proposal (without Minor Negative)):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
I strongly feel most units jumping up to Combat II is too strong, but I'm all for vastly widening the units that would receive the Combat I bonus. If we opt for our 'positive' traits having a slight negative on each, which provides some room for improvement via Trait upgrades from a project to come, then it would stand to reason that Aggressive leaders may have a nation that grows impatient with war faster than others as they generally suffer it more commonly and are constantly living with the expectation that they will be at war again soon if at peace currently.
Agricultural (Current):
- +65% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 5
- Production bonuses for Agricultural buildings
Agricultural (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 food for all plots
- Production bonuses for Agricultural buildings
Agricultural (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food on plots with 3 or more
- Double Production Speed of Great Farmer and Agricultural Buildings
- Workers work 25% faster (maybe a new tag could help define what tasks specifically so that we can restrict to agricultural improvements only)
- +1 Unhealth/city (Due to excessive fertilizers, chemicals, and a general overfeeding of society and thus obesity.)
Agricultural (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food on plots with 3 or more
- Double Production Speed of Great Farmer and Agricultural Buildings
- Workers work 25% faster (maybe a new tag could help define what tasks specifically so that we can restrict to agricultural improvements only)
Charismatic (Current):
- +1 happiness per City
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- -25% XP needed for promotion
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Charismatic (ls612's Proposal):
- +3 happiness per City
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Charismatic (Vanilla BtS):
- +1 happiness per City
- +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Center
- -25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
Charismatic (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 happiness per City
- -25% XP needed for promotion (hands off this!!!! This is the whole purpose in taking this trait!)
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center, Monument, Broadcast Center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
- -10% Espionage Defense in all cities (Not sure if we need a new tag for this but it would be to represent the leader's tendency to be overly verbal and open with the public.)
Charismatic (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 happiness per City
- -25% XP needed for promotion (hands off this!!!! This is the whole purpose in taking this trait!)
- Double Production speed of Recruitment center, Monument, Broadcast Center
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (Current):
- +2 culture per City
- +55% Civic Upkeep
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (ls612's Proposal):
- +20%
- +2 culture per City
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
Creative (Vanilla BtS):
- +2 culture per City
- Double Production Speed of Library, Theatre, Colosseum
Creative (Our Proposal (with a slight Negative)):
- +20%
- +2 culture per City
- Production Bonuses for Cultural Buildings
- +1 happiness from a bunch of buildings
- -1 :Hammers: per City
Otherwise, our Proposal matches ls612's. I think the +% culture helps this otherwise fairly weak trait tremendously.
Deciever (Current):
- +3 espionage per City
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Deciever (ls612's Proposal):
- +3 espionage per City
- +20% espionage
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Deciever (Our Proposal(with slight negative)):
- +2 espionage per City
- +15% espionage (espionage is more effective than culture + the following 2 promos. Too much espionage benefit could be far too OP rather quickly.)
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
- +1 Crime per Population (the populace tends to follow their leader as a prime example of behavior)
Deciever (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +2 espionage per City
- +10% espionage (As 5% of the above was to help counter the crime being a fairly strong penalty)
- Free Improvise I and Deception I for Spies
- Production Bonuses for Spy buildings
Expansive (Current):
- +4 health per City
- Production bonuses for Workers
- +65% Civic Upkeep
Expansive (ls612's Proposal):
- +4 health per City
- Production bonuses for Workers
Expansive (ls612's Proposal):
- +2 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- Double Production Speed of Granary, Harbor
Expansive (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +3 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- +25% Bonus to Worker Production Speed
- Double Production Speed of Granary and all other food storage buildings
- -25% Upkeep for # of Cities and Upkeep for Distance to Capital
- +25% Civic Upkeep (greater expense in Bureaucracy to manage the expansive goals of the empire)
Expansive (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +3 health per City
- +25% Production bonuses for Workers
- +25% Bonus to Worker Production Speed
- Double Production Speed of Granary and all other food storage buildings
- -25% Upkeep for # of Cities
Financial (Current):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 4 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- +65% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Financial (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 4 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Financial (Vanilla BtS):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 2 or more
Financial (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 2 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
- -10% Culture per City (stodgy financiers tend to care less about the arts)
B]Financial (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):[/B]
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 3 or more
- +1 commerce from trade
- Production bonuses for Financial buildings
Humanitarian (Current):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- Free Medic I for Recon units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Some weird Crime modifier
Humanitarian (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Humanitarian (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon and Healer units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Original Crime modifier -2 crime per 3 Population (makes sense - pick up those at the bottom of society and you'll have less crime)
- Disease modifier -1 disease per Population (providing for the people helps keep things in check)
- -5% Gold (not commerce) (tends to be a bit too generous with the people)
Humanitarian (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 health per City
- +1 happiness per City
- Free Medic I for Recon and Healer units
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Crime modifier -1 crime per Population
- Disease modifier -1 disease per Population
Imperialistic (Current):
- +100% GG emergence
- +80% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Imperialistic (ls612's Proposal):
- +100% GG emergence
- +2 happiness per City
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Imperialistic (Vanilla BtS):
- +100% GG emergence
- 50% faster Production of Settlers
Imperialistic (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% GG emergence
- Free City Raider I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
- +50% Civic Upkeep
Imperialistic (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% GG emergence
- Free City Raider I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Production bonuses for Settlers and the Think Tank
Industrious (Current):
- +35% Wonder production
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Industrious (ls612's Proposal):
- +15% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 3 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Industrious (Vanilla BtS):
- +50% Wonder production
- Double Production Speed of Forge
Industrious (Our Proposal(with slight negative)):
- +25% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 5 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
- -1 Happiness in every city (life is too dull and committed to work for most citizens)
- -5% Research in every city (too many brilliant minds are slanted into lives of labor)
- +1 Air Pollution from each Production Building
Industrious (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +20% Wonder production
- +1 hammers on all tiles with 6 or more
- Production bonuses on Production buildings
Nomad (Current):
- +35% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness from Camels
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- More Crime
Nomad (ls612's Proposal):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness from Camels, Horses, and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Hunters, Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Mounted, Recon and Hunter units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Research in all cities
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I, Guerilla I and Speed for Hunters, Animals, Canines, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Research in all cities
Nomad (Our Proposal (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 food from Camps
- +1 happiness, +1 Gold, +1 Production from Camels, Horses, Elephants (ivory?) and Llamas
- Free Flanking I and Speed for Hunters, Animals, Canines, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Production bonuses on some buildings
Organized (Current):
- -40% Civic Upkeep
- +10% XP needed for promotions
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Organized (ls612's Proposal):
- -30% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for promotions
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Organized (Vanilla Bts):
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Production Speed of Lighthouse, Factory, Courthouse
Organized (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- -50% Civic Upkeep, Upkeep from Distance to City, Upkeep from # of Cities, Upkeep from Corporations
- -10% XP needed for promotions (I agree... more rigid disciplined approach to training)
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
- -15% Production speed of all units (over planning and being completely thorough creates delays in training and vehicle construction)
Organized (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- -50% Civic Upkeep, Upkeep from # of Cities
- -10% XP needed for promotions (I agree... more rigid disciplined approach to training)
- Production bonuses on Administration buildings
Philosophical (Current):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- +100% GPP
- +1 unhappiness from Fur
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Philosophical (ls612's Proposal):
- +100% GPP
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Philosophical (Vanilla BtS):
- +100% GPP
- Double Production Speed of University
Philosophical (Our Proposal(with slight negative):
- +100% GPP
- +25% Wonder Build rate (creates a nice synergy with Industrious - Philosophers dream big)
- +5% Culture (focused on arts and sciences as values)
- +5% Research
- Production bonuses for some buildings
- Units require +10% more experience to promote (War is generally a painful distraction to more interesting and important developments)
Philosophical (Our Proposal(without slight negative)):
- +75% GPP
- +25% Wonder Build rate (creates a nice synergy with Industrious - Philosophers dream big)
- +5% Culture (focused on arts and sciences as values)
- +5% Research
- Production bonuses for some buildings
Protective (Current):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gun, and Hi-Tech units
- +80% Civic Upkeep
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
Protective (ls612's Proposal):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gun, and Hi-Tech units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
Protective (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Drill I and City Garrison I for Archers, Gunpowder
- Double Production speed of Walls, Castles
Protective (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- Free City Garrison I for Garrisoneer SubCombat Classes
- Free Drill I for all Ranged units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
- +1 :happy: for Defensive Buildings
- +10% Espionage Defense in all cities
- +25% Upkeep from Distance to Palace (spends more on exterior defense)
- + 10% unit upkeep (spends more on drilling and ongoing training)
- -1 Commerce from Trade (side effect of being paranoid of incoming merchants)
Protective (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- Free City Garrison I for Garrisoneer SubCombat Classes
- Free Drill I for all Ranged units
- Production bonuses for Defensive buildings
- +10% Espionage Defense in all cities
Scientific (Current):
- +70% Civic Upkeep
- +1 science per City
- +12% Science
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Scientific (ls612's Proposal):
- +20:science per City (???????? is this a typo or just way out of whack?)
- +12% Science
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Scientific (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- +1 science per City
- +12% Science
- +1 science for Science Buildings
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
- -5% Production in all cities
- -5% Military Unit Production in all cities (yes, cumulatively combining to -10%)
Scientific (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- +1 science per City
- +10% Science
- +1 science for Science Buildings
- Production bonuses for Science Buildings
Seafaring (Current):
- Free Combat I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for many Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Seafaring (ls612's Proposal):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for many Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Seafaring (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for Combatant Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
- +1 food/water tile
- +1 Water Pollution/population
Seafaring (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- Free Combat I and Navigation I for Ships
- Free Amphibious for Combatant Land units
- Production bonuses for Workboats
- Production bonuses for Seafaring and Naval buildings
Agrees with ls612, though I strongly favor the slight negative on these positive traits!
Spiritual (Current):
- Max 2 turns of Anarchy
- +55% Civic Upkeep
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
Spiritual (ls612's Proposal):
- Max 2 turns of Anarchy
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
Spiritual (Vanilla Bts):
- No Anarchy
- Double Production Speed of Temple
Spiritual (Our Proposal (with slight negative)):
- -50% turns of Anarchy on Civic Changes (needs a new tag - otherwise Max 2 turns works for now)
- -100% turns of Anarchy on Religion Changes
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
- +1 Culture per city
- +1 Culture, Happiness, Gold per State Religious building (probably needs new tags)
- +35% Civic Upkeep
- -1 Diplomacy hit on all Leaders with a differing State Religion (probably needs a new tag)
Spiritual (Our Proposal (without slight negative)):
- -50% turns of Anarchy on Civic Changes (needs a new tag - otherwise Max 2 turns works for now)
- -100% turns of Anarchy on Religion Changes
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- Production bonuses for Religious buildings
- +1 Culture, Happiness, Gold per State Religious building (probably needs new tags)
Progressive (Current):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Combat I for Gun, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech units
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Progressive (ls612's Proposal):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Combat I for Gun, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech units
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Progressive (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- -10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free Military Instructor in every city (Free Combat I overlaps with Aggressive and would make for a bad combination as a result)
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
- -10% GPP rate in every city
Progressive (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- Free Military Instructor in every city (Free Combat I overlaps with Aggressive and would make for a bad combination as a result)
- Can upgrade units outside of borders.
Politician (Current):
- Max 3 turns of Anarchy
- +1 happiness per City
- +10% GPPs.
- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
Politician (ls612's Proposal):
- +1
per City- +10% GPPs.
- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
Politician (Our Proposal (with slight Negative)):
- -50% Civic change Anarchy (without new tag: Max 3 turns of Anarchy)
- +1
per City- +30% Civic Upkeep
- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
- -1 gold from all Administration Buildings
Politician (Our Proposal (without slight Negative)):
- -50% Civic change Anarchy (without new tag: Max 4 turns of Anarchy)
- +1
per City- Free Loyal for Spies
- Stability bonus from State Religion
I've noticed, ls612, even in your proposals you have some negatives on positive traits. I think its a good thing to give a bit of a counterbalance as no one strategy or personality is without weakness.
And of all the proposals here, the one to take out the -25% experience needed for upgrade on Charismatic is the one I REALLY have a problem with.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Negative
Anti-Clerical (Current):
- -15% GPP
- Stability penalties for State Religions
Anti-Clerical (ls612's Proposal):
- -15% GPP
- Stability penalties for State Religions
Anti-Clerical (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- Stability penalties for State Religions
- -1 happiness from temples and cathedrals
- 50% production penalty to all religious buildings and missionaries
- +1 happiness in all cities when on Atheism civic (if we still have it)
- 100% production bonus to Inquisitors
- Enables ability to build Inquisitors regardless of Civic (probably takes a new tag)
- Removed the -15% GPP due to it not always affecting Prophets. Once we can specify Prophets, sure, -25% Prophet GPPs
Anti-Clerical (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- Stability penalties for State Religions
- -1 happiness from temples and cathedrals
- 25% production penalty to all religious buildings and missionaries
- Removed the -15% GPP due to it not always affecting Prophets. Once we can specify Prophets, sure, -25% Prophet GPPs
Cruel (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- +10% espionage
- +10% Wonder production
- Crime increases
Cruel (ls612's Proposal):
- -2 per City
- -10%
- Crime increases
Cruel (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -1 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- +10% espionage
- +10% Wonder production
- Crime increases
Completely agree with previous.
Cruel (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -2 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- Crime increases
Agree with ls612 but find the previous to be more rational
Idealistic (Current):
- -1 health per City
- -1 happiness per City
- +15% Civic Upkeep
- -20% GPPs
- -20% GG emergence
- +5% culture
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 5 or more
Idealistic (ls612's Proposal):
- -1
per City
- -1 per City
- +15% Civic Upkeep
- -10% GPPs
- -10% GG emergence
Idealistic (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -1 per City
- -1 per City
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +10% GPPs (I actually think the blissfully ignorant idealist would be inspiring to others rather than demoralizing)
Idealistic (Our Proposal (without slight positives)):
- -1 per City
- -1 per City
- +15% Civic Upkeep
I don't think an idealist out in lala land would impede GG or GP emergence in any way.
Revolutionary (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- Max 4 turns of Anarchy
- -1 gold per City
- -12% gold
- +10% espionage
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
Revolutionary (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 per City
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
RevolutionIST (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- +25% Anarchy from Civic Changes
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
- +25% GG emergence
RevolutionIST (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- +25% Anarchy from Civic Changes
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
Proposing slight name adjustment to connote a more negative meaning
Megalomaniac (Current):
- -1 per City
- +4% gold
- +3% science
- -20% culture
Megalomaniac (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 per City
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
Megalomaniac (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
- -5% Research
- +15% Military Unit Production
Megalomaniac (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
Barbaric (Current):
- Free Combat I for Melee units
- -15% culture
- Crime increases
Barbaric (ls612's Proposal):
- -15%
- - 50% GPPs
- Crime increases
Barbaric (Our Proposal(with slight Positive):
- -15%
- - 50% GPPs
- - 5% research
- Crime increases
- - Free Barbaric Promotion to all Combat Units (Barbaric: +15% attack, -5% defense (no other prereqs but this))
Barbaric (Our Proposal(without slight Positive)):
- - 15% culture
- - 25% GPPs
- - 5% research
- Crime increases
Isolationist (Current):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -20% commerce from Trade
- -45% food from Trade
- +6% science
- -20% culture
Isolationist (ls612's Proposal):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -30% commerce from Trade
- -60% food from Trade
Isolationist (Our Proposal(with slight positive)):
- -50% commerce from FOREIGN Trade
- -50% food from FOREIGN Trade
- - 1 to Diplomacy relations
- -10% culture
- Stability Increases (if possible, particularly vs foreign culture)
- +10% commerce from Domestic Trade
- +10% food from Domestic Trade
Isolationist (Our Proposal(without slight positive)):
- -50% commerce from FOREIGN Trade
- -50% food from FOREIGN Trade
- - 1 to Diplomacy relations
Fanatical (Current):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -15% science
- +1 from Incense
- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
Fanatical (ls612's Proposal):
- -15% science
- -30% GPPs
Fanatical - rename: Zealot (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- -15% science
- -25% GPPs
- +200% Anarchy time for switching religions
- -3 Crime/ State Religion building
Fanatical - rename: Zealot (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- -10% science
- -25% GPPs
- +200% Anarchy time for switching religions
Populist (Current):
- -1 health per City
- +60% food from Trade
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 8
Populist (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 health per City
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- Stability penalties
Populist (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 health per City
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- Stability penalties
Def of Populist: a supporter or adherent of populism.
Def of Populism: any of various, often antiestablishment or anti-intellectual political movements or philosophies that offer unorthodox solutions or policies and appeal to the common person rather than according with traditional party or partisan ideologies. aka: anti-elite
Populist (our proposal based on the above (with slight positives)):
- -5% Gold per city
- -5% Commerce per city
- -5% Production per city
- -5% Research per city
- +1 Crime per Population
- +10% culture per city
- +1 happiness per city
- +25% civic upkeep
- Stability Increases
Pandering to the people and doing all possible to avoid letting them feel that there's a big authoritative government out there to dictate over their lives.
Populist (our proposal based on the above (without slight positives)):
- -5% Gold per city
- -5% Commerce per city
- -5% Production per city
- -5% Research per city
Excessive (Current):
- -2 health per City
- -20% GPPs.
- +10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free City Raider I for Melee
- Free Improvise for Spies
Excessive (ls612's Proposal):
- -2 per City
- -20% GPPs.
- -10% gold
Ok... I don't really GET the meaning here. Do we mean Excessive Spender? Taking it to mean that, I propose:
Excessive (Rename to Liberal)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +100% Civic Upkeep (WAAY overspends on all kinds of programs that achieve the following
- +1% Commerce
- +1% Gold
- +1% Research
- +1% Espionage
- -1 Disease Rate in every city
- -1 Crime Rate in every city
- -1 Air Pollution Rate in every city
- -1 Water Pollution Rate in every city
Excessive (Rename to Liberal)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +75% Civic Upkeep (WAAY overspends on all kinds of programs that achieve nothing)
Excessive (Rename to Warmonger)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +50% War Weariness
- -10% gold
- -15% less Experience needed to Promote
- +5% build speed for Military Units
Excessive (Rename to Warmonger)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +25% War Weariness
- -10% gold
Excessive (Rename to Selfish)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +75% Civic Upkeep
- +1 Crime per 2 Population
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- +1 Commerce from Trade
Excessive (Rename to Selfish)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- +1 Crime per 2 Population
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
Foreign (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- +1 commerce from Trade
- -20% GPP
- -10% culture
- -5% science
- +10% espionage
- +1 espionage per City
- Free Loyal for Spies
Foreign (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 per City
- +1 from Trade
- -10% GPP
- -10%
- -10%
Foreign - Propose to rename to Covetous (Our Proposal(with positive)):
- -15%
- -15% Espionage Defense in all cities
- +10%
- +1 from Trade
Foreign - Propose to rename to Covetous (Our Proposal(without positive)):
- -10%
- -10% Espionage Defense in all cities
Temperamental (Current):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
Temperamental (ls612's Proposal):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
Temperamental (Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
- -1 to Diplomacy with all other Leaders
- +5% Production
- +5% Gold
Temperamental (Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- -5% GG emergence
- +10% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
Hunter-Gatherer (Current):
- +20% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 8
- -20% culture
- -80% food from Trade
Hunter-Gatherer (ls612's Proposal):
- +20% Civic Upkeep
- -3 health per City
- -20% culture
- -80% food from Trade
Hunter-Gatherer (Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- -1 Health per City
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- -10% culture
- -50% food from Trade
- +1 Food from Seed Camps and Camps.
Hunter-Gatherer (Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- -1 Health per City
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- -50% food from Trade
'We' means a consensus between my wife and I. We proposed some major adjustments to even core traits that seemed underpowered. The one thing I wonder is if the 'negative' traits are balanced to each other well enough, but they seem to have flair with these propositions at least.
So please, Sgt, please just take our proposals here as just that. I at least have greatly appreciated the work you've done and am sorry I haven't spent the time to go over your changes this thoroughly until now. Please don't leave over this... we'll resolve it to everyone's satisfaction I'm sure.
@ls612 specifically: Please revert those changes until we've had time to fully discuss this matter. I don't think they're all bad or misdirected or anything. I'm asking not just for myself but for SGT Slick as well, who really should've at least had enough time, as the rest of us needed, to counter propose to what you stated you'd like to see. This took me about 6 hrs to work up here - you gave us less time than that to say anything to your enormous full workup. I'm just asking for some patience and the workability you ask from the rest of us!
Anti-Clerical (Current):
- -15% GPP
- Stability penalties for State Religions
Anti-Clerical (ls612's Proposal):
- -15% GPP
- Stability penalties for State Religions
Anti-Clerical (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- Stability penalties for State Religions
- -1 happiness from temples and cathedrals
- 50% production penalty to all religious buildings and missionaries
- +1 happiness in all cities when on Atheism civic (if we still have it)
- 100% production bonus to Inquisitors
- Enables ability to build Inquisitors regardless of Civic (probably takes a new tag)
- Removed the -15% GPP due to it not always affecting Prophets. Once we can specify Prophets, sure, -25% Prophet GPPs
Anti-Clerical (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- Stability penalties for State Religions
- -1 happiness from temples and cathedrals
- 25% production penalty to all religious buildings and missionaries
- Removed the -15% GPP due to it not always affecting Prophets. Once we can specify Prophets, sure, -25% Prophet GPPs
Cruel (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- +10% espionage
- +10% Wonder production
- Crime increases
Cruel (ls612's Proposal):
- -2
per City- -10%
- Crime increases
Cruel (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -1 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- +10% espionage
- +10% Wonder production
- Crime increases
Completely agree with previous.
Cruel (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -2 happiness per City
- -10% culture
- Crime increases
Agree with ls612 but find the previous to be more rational
Idealistic (Current):
- -1 health per City
- -1 happiness per City
- +15% Civic Upkeep
- -20% GPPs
- -20% GG emergence
- +5% culture
- +1 commerce on all tiles with 5 or more
Idealistic (ls612's Proposal):
- -1
per City- -1
per City- +15% Civic Upkeep
- -10% GPPs
- -10% GG emergence
Idealistic (Our Proposal (with slight positives)):
- -1
per City- -1
per City- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +10% GPPs (I actually think the blissfully ignorant idealist would be inspiring to others rather than demoralizing)
Idealistic (Our Proposal (without slight positives)):
- -1
per City- -1
per City- +15% Civic Upkeep
I don't think an idealist out in lala land would impede GG or GP emergence in any way.
Revolutionary (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- Max 4 turns of Anarchy
- -1 gold per City
- -12% gold
- +10% espionage
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
Revolutionary (ls612's Proposal):
- -1
per City- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
RevolutionIST (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- +25% Anarchy from Civic Changes
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
- +25% GG emergence
RevolutionIST (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- +25% Anarchy from Civic Changes
- Stability penalties
- Crime increases
Proposing slight name adjustment to connote a more negative meaning
Megalomaniac (Current):
- -1
per City- +4% gold
- +3% science
- -20% culture
Megalomaniac (ls612's Proposal):
- -1
per City- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
Megalomaniac (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
- -5% Research
- +15% Military Unit Production
Megalomaniac (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- +40% Civic Upkeep
- -20%
Barbaric (Current):
- Free Combat I for Melee units
- -15% culture
- Crime increases
Barbaric (ls612's Proposal):
- -15%
- - 50% GPPs
- Crime increases
Barbaric (Our Proposal(with slight Positive):
- -15%
- - 50% GPPs
- - 5% research
- Crime increases
- - Free Barbaric Promotion to all Combat Units (Barbaric: +15% attack, -5% defense (no other prereqs but this))
Barbaric (Our Proposal(without slight Positive)):
- - 15% culture
- - 25% GPPs
- - 5% research
- Crime increases
Isolationist (Current):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -20% commerce from Trade
- -45% food from Trade
- +6% science
- -20% culture
Isolationist (ls612's Proposal):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -30% commerce from Trade
- -60% food from Trade
Isolationist (Our Proposal(with slight positive)):
- -50% commerce from FOREIGN Trade
- -50% food from FOREIGN Trade
- - 1 to Diplomacy relations
- -10% culture
- Stability Increases (if possible, particularly vs foreign culture)
- +10% commerce from Domestic Trade
- +10% food from Domestic Trade
Isolationist (Our Proposal(without slight positive)):
- -50% commerce from FOREIGN Trade
- -50% food from FOREIGN Trade
- - 1 to Diplomacy relations
Fanatical (Current):
- +10% Civic Upkeep
- -15% science
- +1
from Incense- Free Flanking I and Guerilla I for Animals, Recon, Mounted, and Wheeled units
- Free Speed for Recon units
Fanatical (ls612's Proposal):
- -15% science
- -30% GPPs
Fanatical - rename: Zealot (Our Proposal (with slight positive)):
- -15% science
- -25% GPPs
- +200% Anarchy time for switching religions
- -3 Crime/ State Religion building
Fanatical - rename: Zealot (Our Proposal (without slight positive)):
- -10% science
- -25% GPPs
- +200% Anarchy time for switching religions
Populist (Current):
- -1 health per City
- +60% food from Trade
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 8
Populist (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 health per City
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- Stability penalties
Populist (ls612's Proposal):
- -1 health per City
- -20% commerce from Trade
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- Stability penalties
Def of Populist: a supporter or adherent of populism.
Def of Populism: any of various, often antiestablishment or anti-intellectual political movements or philosophies that offer unorthodox solutions or policies and appeal to the common person rather than according with traditional party or partisan ideologies. aka: anti-elite
Populist (our proposal based on the above (with slight positives)):
- -5% Gold per city
- -5% Commerce per city
- -5% Production per city
- -5% Research per city
- +1 Crime per Population
- +10% culture per city
- +1 happiness per city
- +25% civic upkeep
- Stability Increases
Pandering to the people and doing all possible to avoid letting them feel that there's a big authoritative government out there to dictate over their lives.
Populist (our proposal based on the above (without slight positives)):
- -5% Gold per city
- -5% Commerce per city
- -5% Production per city
- -5% Research per city
Excessive (Current):
- -2 health per City
- -20% GPPs.
- +10% XP needed for Promotions
- Free City Raider I for Melee
- Free Improvise for Spies
Excessive (ls612's Proposal):
- -2
per City- -20% GPPs.
- -10% gold
Ok... I don't really GET the meaning here. Do we mean Excessive Spender? Taking it to mean that, I propose:
Excessive (Rename to Liberal)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +100% Civic Upkeep (WAAY overspends on all kinds of programs that achieve the following
- +1% Commerce
- +1% Gold
- +1% Research
- +1% Espionage
- -1 Disease Rate in every city
- -1 Crime Rate in every city
- -1 Air Pollution Rate in every city
- -1 Water Pollution Rate in every city
Excessive (Rename to Liberal)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +75% Civic Upkeep (WAAY overspends on all kinds of programs that achieve nothing)
Excessive (Rename to Warmonger)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +50% War Weariness
- -10% gold
- -15% less Experience needed to Promote
- +5% build speed for Military Units
Excessive (Rename to Warmonger)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +25% War Weariness
- -10% gold
Excessive (Rename to Selfish)(Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- +75% Civic Upkeep
- +1 Crime per 2 Population
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- +1 Commerce from Trade
Excessive (Rename to Selfish)(Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- +50% Civic Upkeep
- +1 Crime per 2 Population
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
Foreign (Current):
- -1 happiness per City
- +1 commerce from Trade
- -20% GPP
- -10% culture
- -5% science
- +10% espionage
- +1 espionage per City
- Free Loyal for Spies
Foreign (ls612's Proposal):
- -1
per City- +1
from Trade- -10% GPP
- -10%
- -10%
Foreign - Propose to rename to Covetous (Our Proposal(with positive)):
- -15%
- -15% Espionage Defense in all cities
- +10%
- +1
from TradeForeign - Propose to rename to Covetous (Our Proposal(without positive)):
- -10%
- -10% Espionage Defense in all cities
Temperamental (Current):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
Temperamental (ls612's Proposal):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
Temperamental (Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- -5% GPPs
- -5% culture
- -5% GG emergence
- +5% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
- -1 to Diplomacy with all other Leaders
- +5% Production
- +5% Gold
Temperamental (Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- -5% GG emergence
- +10% XP needed for Promotions
- Stability penalties
Hunter-Gatherer (Current):
- +20% Civic Upkeep
- +1 food for all plots with more than 8
- -20% culture
- -80% food from Trade
Hunter-Gatherer (ls612's Proposal):
- +20% Civic Upkeep
- -3 health per City
- -20% culture
- -80% food from Trade
Hunter-Gatherer (Our Proposal (with slight Positive)):
- -1 Health per City
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- -10% culture
- -50% food from Trade
- +1 Food from Seed Camps and Camps.
Hunter-Gatherer (Our Proposal (without slight Positive)):
- -1 Health per City
- +1 Disease per 2 Population
- -50% food from Trade
'We' means a consensus between my wife and I. We proposed some major adjustments to even core traits that seemed underpowered. The one thing I wonder is if the 'negative' traits are balanced to each other well enough, but they seem to have flair with these propositions at least.
Before you get tooooo upset and leave over something I actually do completely understand, I'd rather have you propose the same set as above as you had in mind with the tags you've asked for. I wonder how different it'd be from these proposals. (ls612, it seemed to really be a statement you were making there... kinda barging in and taking over as if he had no say, even though he's been asking for our opinions for a very long time on this matter and has largely gone ignored... I dunno... I'd be miffed too.)
So please, Sgt, please just take our proposals here as just that. I at least have greatly appreciated the work you've done and am sorry I haven't spent the time to go over your changes this thoroughly until now. Please don't leave over this... we'll resolve it to everyone's satisfaction I'm sure.
@ls612 specifically: Please revert those changes until we've had time to fully discuss this matter. I don't think they're all bad or misdirected or anything. I'm asking not just for myself but for SGT Slick as well, who really should've at least had enough time, as the rest of us needed, to counter propose to what you stated you'd like to see. This took me about 6 hrs to work up here - you gave us less time than that to say anything to your enormous full workup. I'm just asking for some patience and the workability you ask from the rest of us!
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Hmm... well I have caused a bit of trouble for you both then by inadvertently creating that bug. My apologies to both of you.
So from this point we need to fully reconsider them all again. I only hope SGT Slick comes back to review this with the understanding that the Maintenance bug that you just fixed was one big reason he was detecting little to no real upkeep costs in civilizations in the first place that had led him to all these +% upkeep penalties on traits. It won't work to go back to them exactly but I'm sure we'd all be quite happy for him to review all proposals to come up with a solid rework that keeps the new fix in mind.
Nevertheless... I do think we all needed more time to review your changes ls, perhaps in full knowledge of the maintenance bug and what would happen if repaired, holding off on that fix until we could get the traits in order in preparation for the repair.
So from this point we need to fully reconsider them all again. I only hope SGT Slick comes back to review this with the understanding that the Maintenance bug that you just fixed was one big reason he was detecting little to no real upkeep costs in civilizations in the first place that had led him to all these +% upkeep penalties on traits. It won't work to go back to them exactly but I'm sure we'd all be quite happy for him to review all proposals to come up with a solid rework that keeps the new fix in mind.
Nevertheless... I do think we all needed more time to review your changes ls, perhaps in full knowledge of the maintenance bug and what would happen if repaired, holding off on that fix until we could get the traits in order in preparation for the repair.
Don't go overboard on this, perhaps he wasn't aware of your opposition. Just ask him to recommit the previous version to the SVN.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd & ls612
Rather than giving existing promotions for traits what if we had special "Trait Promotions" that you cannot obtain any other way? I feel giving promotions like Combat I are overdone. Here are the ones on your list that get some sort of promotion ...
- Aggressive
- Deceiver
- Humanitarian
- Imperialistic
- Nomad
- Protective
- Seafaring
- Progressive
- Barbaric
- Fanatical
- Excessive
I just feel with so many free promotions from traits that its making the cultures units that have those promotions worth less.
Rather than giving existing promotions for traits what if we had special "Trait Promotions" that you cannot obtain any other way? I feel giving promotions like Combat I are overdone. Here are the ones on your list that get some sort of promotion ...
- Aggressive
- Deceiver
- Humanitarian
- Imperialistic
- Nomad
- Protective
- Seafaring
- Progressive
- Barbaric
- Fanatical
- Excessive
I just feel with so many free promotions from traits that its making the cultures units that have those promotions worth less.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
@ls612 i am PMing you as not to embarrass you to much here in public, which would be unprofessional . . . SO
My internet was down over 10 hours today . .
btw are the traits fixed yet as JosEPh_II informed us about?? EDIT: Mine show up??
Desolator
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 107
Financial trait is rather "commercial" than financial.
Instead the TradeYieldModifiers I use the first CommerceChanges tag (+X gold (not commerce) per city, and the first CommerceModifiers tag, X% per city) (Like scientific trait does with science, creative does with culture, deceiver does with espionage.)
Maybe a new commercial/trader trait would be better for TradeYieldModifiers, or these could be added to existing traits.
Ps.
I still don't really like the negative traits at all. They are just a plus handicap options, and if I want handicap I play on high difficulty deity or harder (modified deity). Difficulty settings adds crime too, so if i want more crime (more handicap) i just tun up the value rather than choose a crime giving trait. Handicap options should be in the difficulty options IMO.
Instead the TradeYieldModifiers I use the first CommerceChanges tag (+X gold (not commerce) per city, and the first CommerceModifiers tag, X% per city) (Like scientific trait does with science, creative does with culture, deceiver does with espionage.)
Spoiler :
Maybe a new commercial/trader trait would be better for TradeYieldModifiers, or these could be added to existing traits.
Ps.
I still don't really like the negative traits at all. They are just a plus handicap options, and if I want handicap I play on high difficulty deity or harder (modified deity). Difficulty settings adds crime too, so if i want more crime (more handicap) i just tun up the value rather than choose a crime giving trait. Handicap options should be in the difficulty options IMO.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I replied explaining what happened. I'll revert the changes (except for the Upkeep mod removals), so we can have a more thorough discussion about this. Once again I apologize for this, It was my fault for going overboard after the maintenance fix.
Perhaps I overreacted, especially in my pm to you is612, for that im sorry, but I do no longer want to work on the traits so feel free to do what you want. Ill continue to play and enjoy c2c though and help out with bugs/balance etc.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
By the way you talked, i thought THIS was the main reason, and not that he just did what he did, you like playing more than doing, i understand that, no biggy, and as always thx, and remember to "Just Have Fun."
No need to revert them, lets just talk about it and change what you have is all, lets just get a CLEAR and understanding traits back in is all, and we got to watch out for those modifiers in the civics area also.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
You may have to revert back to when Sgt's traits were active.
In fact I strongly advise it because the Mod is essentially broken. Cause everything you've done so far up to and including SVN 4316 is still eliminating ALL Expenses. (See post in Bug thread). (Although I'm not having the Recalc hang some of you are reporting)
JosEPh
In fact I strongly advise it because the Mod is essentially broken. Cause everything you've done so far up to and including SVN 4316 is still eliminating ALL Expenses. (See post in Bug thread). (Although I'm not having the Recalc hang some of you are reporting)
JosEPh
First things first, the recalc bug needs to be fixed for me to be able to look at the expenses bug. I don't want to make any more changes for now until we know what is going on/what is broken.
