JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
But the recalc bug Came from your Traits revision along with the Expense Bug. They came from the same Commit 4303. Go back to 4297 and None of this is there.
JosEPh
JosEPh
Extra Traits for C2C
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
Please post the save that did this in the bugs/crashes thread and I can run it through 4303.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I added info to my previous post.
If you need a savegame Before this all happened (SVN 4397) I can get that one too.
Edit: Actually you running my save game Thru 4303 isn't going to really help since the Commit 4303 Is the problem. But if that's what you want i'll get it for you. Doesn't make sense too me though.
JosEPh
I added info to my previous post.
If you need a savegame Before this all happened (SVN 4397) I can get that one too.
Edit: Actually you running my save game Thru 4303 isn't going to really help since the Commit 4303 Is the problem. But if that's what you want i'll get it for you. Doesn't make sense too me though.
JosEPh
4303 wasn't the problem. The problem was that I ordered the calculations in the wrong manner, so all costs were getting multiplied by 0 if the iGoldModifier tag was less than 100.
I'll fix that and commit that to the SVN, although that doesn't explain the recalc hangs (which I did not experience in 4303).
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
OK, now that the changes are back in, CAN "we" please get a discussion AGAIN going on these traits, Pls, But let's do Positive first, then Negative later, and lets get some others to chime in also, so what do you'll think, and that means EVERYONE, BUT please be advised from now on from what i was PM'ed from SgtSlick, he WILL be the Traitologist for C2C. . . SO
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely..."
I'm glad Sgt is back,
but there is a "but". Being flexible as "The Modder" is a must. No more "deal with it" type attitude, please?!
My 2 cents on that.
JosEPh
I'm glad Sgt is back,
but there is a "but". Being flexible as "The Modder" is a must. No more "deal with it" type attitude, please?!My 2 cents on that.
JosEPh
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely..."
I'm glad Sgt is back,
My 2 cents on that.
JosEPh
I prefer things to be discussed as well, but as I've said before, if I hadn't at least removed the civic upkeep modifiers the maintenance fix would have bankrupted everyone. I'm happy to talk about my ideas here as well, I saw that Thunderbrd has a lot of good ideas on that.
Taxman66
King
You know what would be cool (but probably a whole lot of work as it would entail building a new interface option/screen):
The abillity to choose your starting traits. Or even better a 'purchase' your specific benefits. That way someone who doesn't want any negatives can start with a just a small set of trait benefits, and those who want more would have to offset it with some negative effects.
The abillity to choose your starting traits. Or even better a 'purchase' your specific benefits. That way someone who doesn't want any negatives can start with a just a small set of trait benefits, and those who want more would have to offset it with some negative effects.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I thought i saw a modcomp that does that, but i am not sure how to get it to be merged into C2C, or for that matter even IF it would work, because really C2C is a completely different kind of "Monster."
But i definitely agree, make it your way, i know that slogan from some place,
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
That would be cool for the player. But what about the AI? Would the Player need to "Set" the Traits for every AI put into the Game? This would not work with Barb Civ and maybe not even Start as Minors Game Options.
JosEPh
Taxman66
King
The AI wouldn't build it's leaders; it would just have the default random leaders. Although, we could use the point system to, albiet arbitrarily, balnce the traits/leaders. Optionally, the player could choose to go with a random leader as well.
Thus no additional AI work.
Thus no additional AI work.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... one thing I tried to do with my proposals was to make sure no 'free promo' was ever assigned by more than one trait. In fact, I think there's room for some more traits entirely here to cover even more of the 'basic promos'.
I like the idea of some having unique promotions given for free, yes, but keep in mind that a promotion like Combat I is a powerful benefit (even though it overlaps with other ways to achieve this bonus) because of how much closer it puts the unit to other promos that its a prereq for. That's what makes being aggressive quite nice. Combat I is no big deal in and of itself BUT its a very big deal when it puts you one step closer to faster movement promos, easier access to crimefighting promos, a step closer to commando, etc...
Its unfortunate that that bonus negates some of the benefits of other wonders and such but it also makes it so you don't feel its so necessary to build buildings or reach for the bonuses you're already getting as a result of your trait. So all in all it aids in making decisions more interesting.
Also, many of these simply make sense as they fit the theme of the trait.
Nevertheless, I think we need to go through each trait one at a time rather than all splayed out like the previous proposal rundowns were so we can get a much more zoomed in feedback on each from everyone and discuss things out for each to be thoroughly explored. So I'm sure some pointed suggestions as to what unique promos you have in mind there would be appreciated during that process!
Interesting point on the Financial trait. I think we should indeed split up the Financial trait into Economical (very good at raking in gold), Mercantile (very good at trade) and Commercial (quite good at enhancing commerce overall).
As for the negative traits, part of the intention here is to have something to overcome. I don't think its a bad thing that all leaders have their own weaknesses from their personalities as well. The more important thing, I think, is to try to get them all balanced to each other so all leaders have an equal but different set of strengths and weaknesses (at least to start.)
Additionally, it may be soon possible to make all negative traits apply only on a game option - but I'm waiting for AIAndy's wizardry to enable us to design such modularized options.
What I mean by 'having something to overcome' I'll mention below...
I have some plans to make it possible to pick additional traits as the game goes on, based on earning them via a Global Culture point system (which makes Global, or perhaps I should say National Culture (the sum of your whole Civ's culture) something like Experience points for your leader and levels earn new traits.)
There's also a lot more concepts for Leaders to come but this is the basic one I'm wanting to start with. This is not something that will be done all too soon because I'm working like a madman to get the Combat Mod going and its still taking ages longer than I'd hoped but I'm still very determined to eventually address this project because I'm really looking forward to that dynamic.
In the meantime, I'd like it if we could keep leaders defined by their historical natures as much as possible. Perhaps as a part of the aforementioned project I can make it so that we can select our initial traits as a game option, making the actual leader selection little more than a picture to depict you and carrying defaults for the ai. But yeah, it'll still be a bit before I can focus on the Leader projects like this.
@All, as stated above, I think we should go through each of these one at a time with a very fine tooth comb and come up with all thoughts and counterproposals, really debate out each. For final determinations, I believe we have Sgt Slick as our Trait Master, so if he doesn't want to do this, that's fine. But provided he's willing to work with me on this, I'm going to repost all current proposals for our first trait, Aggressive, so we can all discuss THAT trait.
Aggressive (Current):
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
- +10 crime in City if Crime > 200
Aggressive (ls612's Proposal):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I and Combat II for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
Aggressive (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings (Barracks and Drydocks)
Aggressive (Our Proposal (with Minor Negative)):
- +10% War Weariness accumulated during war (may require a new tag?)
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
Aggressive (Our Proposal (without Minor Negative)):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
I said:
I suppose we also need to really come to a determination on whether 'Positive' traits should be 'mostly positive with some slight negative drawbacks' or 'ALL positive'.
With my eventual plan to create Trait upgrades in mind, we'd be looking at a situation where we have, say, Aggressive II that can be selected by a leader who already has Aggressive I (the above). I had it in mind that these upgrades could start removing the negative aspects of the trait while enhancing the positive attributes. For example, Aggressive I would add Free Combat II to all the same unit types, +5% GG Emergence and -5% War Weariness (which by Aggressive IV could even become a positive since the nation is fully accustomed to constant warfare now.)
So in large part, for that reason, I'm firmly in the camp that suggests that all 'Positive' Traits carry with them a slight negative. It also allows some traits to get a bit more positive than the usual curve provided that they also have a bit more negative to balance it out.
Anyhow, that's enough from me on this subject for now
Taxman66
King
My biggest isssues is that what someone thinks is a 'slight' negative really turns into a rather hefty one. For example: A negative unit experience penalty of even 5% winds up having more affect on unit promotions, than a 'free' starting promotion (which in effect is really 2 XP).
IMO, I'd rather see smaller effect tratits to begin with and positive traits without negatives; and if negative traits are included then they correspondingly shouldn't have positives.
Of course in a perfect world, I could still see letting a player (not the AI) build his leader with choosen traits (or picking a predetermined leader or random leader, along with the AI leaders, as is current case).
IMO, I'd rather see smaller effect tratits to begin with and positive traits without negatives; and if negative traits are included then they correspondingly shouldn't have positives.
Of course in a perfect world, I could still see letting a player (not the AI) build his leader with choosen traits (or picking a predetermined leader or random leader, along with the AI leaders, as is current case).
Il Principe
Prince
I like them all to have drawbacks, just like I liked the sports buildigns reducing hammers. (Not wanting to open that one again, just an example of something you have to carefully decide about dutign the game).
Although the "build your leader" kit would be nice ( reminds me of empire earth) it seems far of for now.
As to your example: a free promo can be a very powerfull thing, as was already pointed out. And less XP can be also very hard for the player.. but it depends on the game. I for one tend to have jsut enough military to protect my borders most fo the time, focussign instead on a stable economyletting me run a 100%science slider. An XP debuf does not realy matter to me
Desolator
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 107
@Thunderbrd
'having something to overcome' IS a handicap
(If you want to play deity for example you do not want to choose a crime giving trait too. If you want more crime than deity gives, you can modify the deity tags. Simpler and easier to follow. (Why it there much crime in my cities? Oh I'm on deity, oh, and the trait too, oh and x setting too, oh and y building too, oh and so on.)
If there must be negative effects, civic maintenance is acceptable (as was before with SgtSlick's tweak). I my testing the high civic mainenace (even ~150-200%) was not an issue for me (on old snail, eternity and new eons speed), the AI had plenty gold too. Tested until the classical era, but with the much gold giving buildings, religions, trade etc. by then, it should not be a problem later.
NOTE: iUpkeepModifier only applies only to CIVIC maintenance, not ALL (building) maintenance.
The minus health and happiness is not a very big deal, but they can be in the beginning at high difficulties. Eg. stagnating for 50-100 turns on deity/eternity if the trait gives -health.
so basically you are giving the AI +100 turn advantage with it. Of cource you can overcome it, but this game is about overcoming empires, not (own) personality disorders.
- gp, building, commerce is the same, it is harder to get great people, harder to get promo, harder to trade. So just difficulty settings attached to one leader.
I agree it is very important to try to get them all balanced to each other, but that would take eons to playtest on all gamespeeds/difficulty settings, so basically it is not worth it IMO. (Just to have negatives because we can do it.)
'having something to overcome' IS a handicap
(If you want to play deity for example you do not want to choose a crime giving trait too. If you want more crime than deity gives, you can modify the deity tags. Simpler and easier to follow. (Why it there much crime in my cities? Oh I'm on deity, oh, and the trait too, oh and x setting too, oh and y building too, oh and so on.)
If there must be negative effects, civic maintenance is acceptable (as was before with SgtSlick's tweak). I my testing the high civic mainenace (even ~150-200%) was not an issue for me (on old snail, eternity and new eons speed), the AI had plenty gold too. Tested until the classical era, but with the much gold giving buildings, religions, trade etc. by then, it should not be a problem later.
NOTE: iUpkeepModifier only applies only to CIVIC maintenance, not ALL (building) maintenance.
The minus health and happiness is not a very big deal, but they can be in the beginning at high difficulties. Eg. stagnating for 50-100 turns on deity/eternity if the trait gives -health.
so basically you are giving the AI +100 turn advantage with it. Of cource you can overcome it, but this game is about overcoming empires, not (own) personality disorders.
- gp, building, commerce is the same, it is harder to get great people, harder to get promo, harder to trade. So just difficulty settings attached to one leader.
I agree it is very important to try to get them all balanced to each other, but that would take eons to playtest on all gamespeeds/difficulty settings, so basically it is not worth it IMO. (Just to have negatives because we can do it.)
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Once the "Maintenance Bugs" are cleaned up then putting Sgtslick's traits back in for more testing may be appropriate. But I don't think it calls for a more convoluted system.
I do feel that any Leader having more than 100% Civic Maint. Upkeep is too much though. That to me is the obvious 1st step.
And the idea of a Leader causing crime seems counter-intuitive especially on Traits like Revolutionary. That one sticks out like a sore thumb. Crime reducing Traits though do make sense.
I'm of the opinion to put Sgt's Traits back in with some modifications (as mentioned above) and let's continue to play them and see how they pan out.
This is similar to when Hydro introduced Crime and even now Crime is still being adjusted. But no one pulled the plug on Hydro. I don't necessarily like Sgt's Traits but they need to be given a fair shake and a chance at evolution.
JosEPh
I do feel that any Leader having more than 100% Civic Maint. Upkeep is too much though. That to me is the obvious 1st step.
And the idea of a Leader causing crime seems counter-intuitive especially on Traits like Revolutionary. That one sticks out like a sore thumb. Crime reducing Traits though do make sense.
I'm of the opinion to put Sgt's Traits back in with some modifications (as mentioned above) and let's continue to play them and see how they pan out.
This is similar to when Hydro introduced Crime and even now Crime is still being adjusted. But no one pulled the plug on Hydro. I don't necessarily like Sgt's Traits but they need to be given a fair shake and a chance at evolution.
JosEPh
1. No, cleaning up the maintenance bugs required sgtslicks changes to be removed. Otherwise everyone would go bankrupt in about twenty turns on 0% research.
2. I would fall firmly into the camp that positive traits should be all positive and negative traits should be all negative. That has two main advantages in my opinion. First it allows players to more easily see what the benefits and drawbacks to a leader are. Second, it makes balancing the traits easier, ie, if we say that each leader has two positive traits and one negative one all we have to do is make sure all of the positive traits have about the same amount of positive and all of the negative traits have the same amount of negative.
3. @T-brd, I don't think having those units start at Combat II will be the biggest deal, remember that other traits will have significant advantages of their own. I felt that Aggressive was a bit underpowered before. Same with Agricultural. Now those both pack a punch.
DavidB1111
Not-so-smart Man
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2008
- Messages
- 662
After being told to post my ideas in the Trait thread, I'll go do that here, I think this is the right thread for it.
Organized Trait needs that increased Exp penalty removed completely. That's the complete antithesis of Organized.
I mean, there's nothing more Unorganized than needing more experience to gain a level.
And honestly, drawbacks on Traits should be manageable, and that one makes the Organized Trait worthless.
The other traits costing civic maintenance increase is not a bad idea. I really can't complain.
However, we have to take care that the benefits do outweigh the penalties.
Organized is the only one I fully think needs to be changed. Perhaps some other one is really bad too, but I haven't run into it.
Organized Trait needs that increased Exp penalty removed completely. That's the complete antithesis of Organized.
I mean, there's nothing more Unorganized than needing more experience to gain a level.
And honestly, drawbacks on Traits should be manageable, and that one makes the Organized Trait worthless.
The other traits costing civic maintenance increase is not a bad idea. I really can't complain.
However, we have to take care that the benefits do outweigh the penalties.
Organized is the only one I fully think needs to be changed. Perhaps some other one is really bad too, but I haven't run into it.
Already done on the SVN.
I've tried to remove all negatives on the SVN from positive traits, and all positives from negative traits. I assume you are using V27, correct?
DavidB1111
Not-so-smart Man
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2008
- Messages
- 662
Yeah. I am. I'm glad you changed it around.
I'm surprised someone got that penalty through the testing phase.
Also, negative traits? the only one I can think of is Barbaric, but the negative to culture is the best penalty for that.
I also don't know why Shaka is considered Barbaric though. Is Hitler Barbaric too? He's well, Evil.
If there are other negative traits, I haven't run into them.
I'm surprised someone got that penalty through the testing phase.
Also, negative traits? the only one I can think of is Barbaric, but the negative to culture is the best penalty for that.
I also don't know why Shaka is considered Barbaric though. Is Hitler Barbaric too? He's well, Evil.
If there are other negative traits, I haven't run into them.
Similar threads
