ExtraModMod

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I have a few suggestions:

1) Loki: 80 hammers ( was 180 ) , 100 AIweight ( was 200 ) , disrupt can no longer flip cities.

while I do love the flavour, no player would ever let this happen and it's just unfair that AIs will lose many, many cities to this. it's pretty gamebreaking for other non-creative AIs in the game at the moment imo.

2) Kuriotates get 1,2,3,4,5,6 cities on duel,tiny,small,normal,large,huge mapsize ( was 2,2,3,3,4,5 ) . this keeps them competitive on larger mapsizes which at the moment is not really true imo and makes them scale better. also, their palace should need only 2 cities to be buildable, so they can move it even if they cannot build 4 cities on smaller map sizes.

3) remove DoW by barbarians for Barbarian trait: I've seen it mentioned by MC and agree it's much better. Barbarian is already arguably the weakest trait unless you're Clan, keeping the score low artificially feels incredibly gamey and it messes up Averax's gameplay. due to how the barbarian AI works, the moment you lose peace ALL the armageddon nasties stop what they're doing and come right at you instead. very lame finish for a successful game plan

4) change freeXP for AI to 1,2,3,4,5 for prince,monarch,emperor,immortal,deity ( was 1,2,4,6,8 ) freeXP wasn't in civ4 originally and was added to FFH when the AI was braindead, but was never tweaked after it got taught how to put together stacks of doom and use them aggressively. the proposed values still give 2 free promos at deity, and does not buff charismatic leaders more than others ( they would get 3 free promos at deity ) . it also works much better alongside increasing/flexible difficulty.

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side note, have you ever considered having Adaptive trait also trigger on the first turn?

I've also noticed the Elohim still start with pacifism.

 

[Terkhen]

I have a few suggestions:

1) Loki: 80 hammers ( was 180 ) , 100 AIweight ( was 200 ) , disrupt can no longer flip cities.

while I do love the flavour, no player would ever let this happen and it's just unfair that AIs will lose many, many cities to this. it's pretty gamebreaking for other non-creative AIs in the game at the moment imo.

Although I do agree with that being a problem, the proposed change is IMO a huge nerf to how Loki works. I'd prefer something on the lines of the previous suggestion for Disrupt.

2) Kuriotates get 1,2,3,4,5,6 cities on duel,tiny,small,normal,large,huge mapsize ( was 2,2,3,3,4,5 ) . this keeps them competitive on larger mapsizes which at the moment is not really true imo and makes them scale better. also, their palace should need only 2 cities to be buildable, so they can move it even if they cannot build 4 cities on smaller map sizes.

I like both suggestions. Count with having them in 0.5.0.

3) remove DoW by barbarians for Barbarian trait: I've seen it mentioned by MC and agree it's much better. Barbarian is already arguably the weakest trait unless you're Clan, keeping the score low artificially feels incredibly gamey and it messes up Averax's gameplay. due to how the barbarian AI works, the moment you lose peace ALL the armageddon nasties stop what they're doing and come right at you instead. very lame finish for a successful game plan

I'm guessing that with DoW you mean that the Barbarians attack you if you have enough points in comparison with other civilizations. I agree it sounds far better, but it does not make sense from a lore point of view in some cases because EMM lacks MultiBarb.

4) change freeXP for AI to 1,2,3,4,5 for prince,monarch,emperor,immortal,deity ( was 1,2,4,6,8 ) freeXP wasn't in civ4 originally and was added to FFH when the AI was braindead, but was never tweaked after it got taught how to put together stacks of doom and use them aggressively. the proposed values still give 2 free promos at deity, and does not buff charismatic leaders more than others ( they would get 3 free promos at deity ) . it also works much better alongside increasing/flexible difficulty.

Since I always play on noble/prince, I don't really know much about this kind of balance. What do others think?

side note, have you ever considered having Adaptive trait also trigger on the first turn?

No. In my opinion Adaptive is powerful enough as it is.

I've also noticed the Elohim still start with pacifism.

Intended. You can make a case for other civilizations that used to start with Pacifism, but the Elohim are meant to follow this philosophy WRT the lore.

 

[Calavente]

I'm guessing that with DoW you mean that the Barbarians attack you if you have enough points in comparison with other civilizations. I agree it sounds far better, but it does not make sense from a lore point of view in some cases because EMM lacks MultiBarb.

I think he means that all barbs stop what they do and put you, not as merely "attackable", but as "priority Target n°1" ... and cross continents just to fight the "former barbarian" civ, not bothering with raiding/attacking other civs
If that is the case, it really is broken.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yep that's what I meant. I checked in WB and the moment you lose peace, all the baddies do a U turn and come right at you.

Regarding the Elohim I'd still recommend you reconsider, it's not a lore issue but a gameplay one. for the player it's merely an annoyance of having to lose 1 turn to switch away from it, but the AI is not as smart and that -20% early on is a HUGE blow to their vital early warrior production. you're generally working food tiles early on so you'll probably have 2 hammers. since it's rounded down it becomes one hammer, i.e. a 50% penalty. building your first warriors that much slower than your neighbours is nasty

Regarding Loki, the puppet states idea is nice but you're still left with the same issue... he's either TOO good vs AI, or useless vs humans. it's just one of those FFH things that were always intended as a single player fun toy, like Spirit3, Svart worldspell etc. there's not much that can be done here really, if the AI gets taughts how to DoW on balseraphs before he flips a city then he becomes pretty useless and not worth the 200 hammers. at least at 80 hammers he can still be worth it as an unkillable scout, city investigator and bring gold/cause unhappiness.

 

[Ororo]

I would love to try this mod but my user interface seems to have completely disappeared. Could be caused by the newest MNAI patch as well (I have just installed both of them at the same time). Does anybody recognize this issue? Thanks in advance.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I regularly play Deity and I have to say I agree that the XP is a bit ridiculous (I would make it 6, BTW, as a good point where the CHA civs get a upgrade with one civic and the non CHA get one with 2). I do worry about making it too easy...but there are enough artificial ways to nerf oneself in FFH anyway.
I like both the Kuriotate suggestions.
I disagree with the barb change, however. I wouldn't mind changing the unitai so barbs don't suddenly charge for that civ, but there ought to be a mechanism for ending barb peace, and the current implementation is good - if you're 1.5x the score of the tech/wonder-happy AI (let alone humans) you're in a very good place. And yes I understand that if you're winning via an Armageddon rush then it is something that you have to prepare for and worry about, but again, you're in a far better place then the AI for fighting the horsemen (and in the Averax case...Pyre Zombies are resilient to the 90/100 AC point, as well as IIRC ignoring fear and having their own mechanism to explode-kill them off). And yes, it is the weakest trait...but traits are not supposed to be equal. Financial, Spiritual and so on are the main traits, if you will, and Barbarian, Ingenuity, Magic Resistant and so on will never live up to them, and nor should they.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

there's the two gameoptions "no AI building requirements" and "AI ignore level prereqs" , I guess those would be pretty nasty if you're in for moar punishment

changing the barbarian unitai would be great but unfortunately it's more something of a MNAI issue. I've never liked the score mechanic for losing peace. They're supposed to DoW because you're "too civilized" , I think they should DoW if you either switch away from Evil or are going for an un-barbarish victory condition, i.e. cultural or tower. They should be quite content with their buddies winning a fittingly violent domination/conquest victory imo

Ororo, try only installing extramodmod, the mnai patch is already included so installing both will definitely cause issues. I'm sure you'll love the modmod

I've just had an idea, can hidden nationality be made to work only outside of your own cities? it's very, very annoying when you build something that gets slaughtered immediately by your buddies strolling trough your lands. It also doesn't make sense that there would be a barbarian unit in a city!

The pillar of chains needs to lose its "negates civic anger" feature since that's no longer in the game. Personally I would prefer that civic anger be added to Liberty instead, that way the Overcouncil resolution to enforce it would have a much more interesting use.

 

[Terkhen]

Regarding Loki, the puppet states idea is nice but you're still left with the same issue... he's either TOO good vs AI, or useless vs humans. it's just one of those FFH things that were always intended as a single player fun toy, like Spirit3, Svart worldspell etc. there's not much that can be done here really, if the AI gets taughts how to DoW on balseraphs before he flips a city then he becomes pretty useless and not worth the 200 hammers. at least at 80 hammers he can still be worth it as an unkillable scout, city investigator and bring gold/cause unhappiness.

I prefer to not remove one of the defining abilities of Loki.

I would love to try this mod but my user interface seems to have completely disappeared. Could be caused by the newest MNAI patch as well (I have just installed both of them at the same time). Does anybody recognize this issue? Thanks in advance.

As someone else mentioned, you can't install both MNAI and EMM at the same time over the same FFH2 installation. EMM already contains MNAI, and in this case it is failing because you are mixing EMM with a MNAI version which is more recent than the one included in EMM. If you want to play both MNAI and EMM, you should install a clean version of FFH2 0.41o, copy the whole "Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2" folder as for example "Beyond the Sword\Mods\ExtraModMod" and then install MNAI in the first folder and EMM in the other.

I regularly play Deity and I have to say I agree that the XP is a bit ridiculous (I would make it 6, BTW, as a good point where the CHA civs get a upgrade with one civic and the non CHA get one with 2). I do worry about making it too easy...but there are enough artificial ways to nerf oneself in FFH anyway.

I have created an issue for this: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/220/change-ai-xp-bonuses-in-bigger

I disagree with the barb change, however. I wouldn't mind changing the unitai so barbs don't suddenly charge for that civ, but there ought to be a mechanism for ending barb peace, and the current implementation is good - if you're 1.5x the score of the tech/wonder-happy AI (let alone humans) you're in a very good place. And yes I understand that if you're winning via an Armageddon rush then it is something that you have to prepare for and worry about, but again, you're in a far better place then the AI for fighting the horsemen (and in the Averax case...Pyre Zombies are resilient to the 90/100 AC point, as well as IIRC ignoring fear and having their own mechanism to explode-kill them off). And yes, it is the weakest trait...but traits are not supposed to be equal. Financial, Spiritual and so on are the main traits, if you will, and Barbarian, Ingenuity, Magic Resistant and so on will never live up to them, and nor should they.

tchanging the barbarian unitai would be great but unfortunately it's more something of a MNAI issue. I've never liked the score mechanic for losing peace. They're supposed to DoW because you're "too civilized" , I think they should DoW if you either switch away from Evil or are going for an un-barbarish victory condition, i.e. cultural or tower. They should be quite content with their buddies winning a fittingly violent domination/conquest victory imo

I believe that having all barbarians suddenly turn on you is not something intended, but an emergent problem from how the AI works. The barbarian AI is probably attacking the most powerful player when possible, and if suddenly a new player with more points than anyone else emerges, when it reevaluates its war plan it decides to switch targets. I don't like the idea of changing the conditions for losing peace with the barbarians; in fact I feel they wait too much to do it.

I've just had an idea, can hidden nationality be made to work only outside of your own cities? it's very, very annoying when you build something that gets slaughtered immediately by your buddies strolling trough your lands. It also doesn't make sense that there would be a barbarian unit in a city!

I don't know if that's doable without heavy DLL changes.

The pillar of chains needs to lose its "negates civic anger" feature since that's no longer in the game. Personally I would prefer that civic anger be added to Liberty instead, that way the Overcouncil resolution to enforce it would have a much more interesting use.

I also believe that we should use this feature instead of removing it, and Liberty looks like a good civic to have this effect.

 

[Ororo]

Ororo, try only installing extramodmod, the mnai patch is already included so installing both will definitely cause issues. I'm sure you'll love the modmod

As someone else mentioned, you can't install both MNAI and EMM at the same time over the same FFH2 installation. EMM already contains MNAI, and in this case it is failing because you are mixing EMM with a MNAI version which is more recent than the one included in EMM. If you want to play both MNAI and EMM, you should install a clean version of FFH2 0.41o, copy the whole "Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2" folder as for example "Beyond the Sword\Mods\ExtraModMod" and then install MNAI in the first folder and EMM in the other.

Thanks a lot guys! I must have skipped this part somehow while reading the instructions. It works now!

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

can Haste be changed so that it works like a toggle and the unit autocasts it at the start of each turn unless you untoggle it? having to recast it each turn is so freakin annoying... I really miss autocast, it was removed without any good reason

 

[Terkhen]

Thanks a lot guys! I must have skipped this part somehow while reading the instructions. It works now!

Great! I hope you enjoy the mod

can Haste be changed so that it works like a toggle and the unit autocasts it at the start of each turn unless you untoggle it? having to recast it each turn is so freakin annoying... I really miss autocast, it was removed without any good reason

Since I wasn't around when autocast was still a feature, I don't know why it was removed or how to enable it. Bear in mind that WRT FFH2 history I'm a newbie

I'm blocked with regard to the Prophecy of Ragnarok issue. As Blakmane mentioned, Multiple Production along with the Prophecy allows to increase the AC in a rate which is impossible to counter. I agree with the solution of making the Prophecy of Ragnarok effect apply only once per turn, but I don't know how to implement something that is meant to happen only once per turn. IIRC there was some way to store stuff on python, could anyone point me to an example of it?

 

[lfgr]

You can store things in python via the SdToolKitCustom.py module, for examples see Revolution.py and BarbarianCiv.py (it's sometimes imported as SDTK).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

is that prophecy thing REALLY an issue? I've tried exploiting that as much as possible and it only works if you're also using Last Days.

re: haste, can it be just made to work similar to how the spell buildings work ( inspiration, hope etc. ) i.e. the effect does not wear off as long as there's a unit with body 1 in the stack? it works like that in Fall Further and it's much more convenient

 

[Ororo]

Having just won a Conquest victory as Jonas Endain on Immortal, I am able to provide some thoughts on the mod:

I absolutely love the new Great General system. It makes warring early a much more solid choice especially for civs who really need to go to war like Clan, Doviello or Sidar. I like the fact that attaching them does not instantly add 25 exp like in vanilla BTS since that would make Grigori a bit underwhelming imo.

Animals. I had a much easier time farming wolves for wolf raiders since there were so many animals running around. Great addition. I think Svartalfar may be able to benefit the most from this change.

Barbs. Contrary to others, I haven't had much trouble with them after they declared war on me. Barbarian may not be the best trait out there but I think I got the most out of it and it really helped my early expansion.

AI. Flauros declared on me twice, both times while he was pleased towards me. However, I spotted his stacks before he entered my borders and coudl therefore shuffle enough troops to my border city to fend him off. (I was focusing on Decius, Perpentach and Faeryl at the time).

Blitz promotion. Would it be too OP to move this promotion to some earlier tech? I won the game the turn after I got Military Strategy.

New resources. Love the variety. Playing with blessings of Amatheon and All unique features makes the settling choices very interesting.

Spoiler :

 

[Freesmog]

there's the two gameoptions "no AI building requirements" and "AI ignore level prereqs" , I guess those would be pretty nasty if you're in for moar punishment

I only use "no AI building requirements", as "AI ignore level prereqs" were causing giant stacks of mages attacking me! The civs would ignore other units that would have been more appropriate to make for a better strategy. Otherwise, this would be an excellent way to make the game more competitive.

 

[Terkhen]

is that prophecy thing REALLY an issue? I've tried exploiting that as much as possible and it only works if you're also using Last Days.

Did you try to exploit it with the new Multiple Production feature?

re: haste, can it be just made to work similar to how the spell buildings work ( inspiration, hope etc. ) i.e. the effect does not wear off as long as there's a unit with body 1 in the stack? it works like that in Fall Further and it's much more convenient

I don't see a way of implementing that in FFH2 without modifying how spells and/or stacks work.

I absolutely love the new Great General system. It makes warring early a much more solid choice especially for civs who really need to go to war like Clan, Doviello or Sidar. I like the fact that attaching them does not instantly add 25 exp like in vanilla BTS since that would make Grigori a bit underwhelming imo.

Thanks! Tholal adapted it for MNAI Advanced Tactics, and ExtraModMod modifies that adaptation by removing the Great Commanders and unifying a lot of stuff.

AI. Flauros declared on me twice, both times while he was pleased towards me. However, I spotted his stacks before he entered my borders and coudl therefore shuffle enough troops to my border city to fend him off. (I was focusing on Decius, Perpentach and Faeryl at the time).

The changes to AI included in More Naval AI 2.53 by Tholal (and that will be present in the next version of ExtraModMod) should improve this kind of AI behavior.

Blitz promotion. Would it be too OP to move this promotion to some earlier tech? I won the game the turn after I got Military Strategy.

I'm not sure. It's true that in most games I never see this promotion, but it is also quite strong.

New resources. Love the variety. Playing with blessings of Amatheon and All unique features makes the settling choices very interesting.

Thank you. Feedback on any possible changes, additions or tweaks to the resources is appreciated

In other news, I managed to reproduce the "cannot dispel new mana nodes" issue. I was dispelling mana without a node built on top on them (which worked) but the cause of the bug were the improvements. This issue has been fixed and will not be present in 0.4.1. We are currently doing a beta run of 0.4.1 in order to debug an OOS which wasn't present in 0.4.0 (AKA playing LAN with my friends). As soon as we hunt it down, I'll release 0.4.1.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Did you try to exploit it with the new Multiple Production feature?

yep, building multiple pyre zombies per turn with command post and heroic epic. it's effective with Last Days, but without it the AC raises too slowly for the horsemen to be a real danger. it's actually a similar issue as the Infernals being strong if summoned early and crap if late, which Q fixed in his Eitb update... would be nice if the strength of the AC baddies also scaled based on when they appear.

 

[Terkhen]

You can store things in python via the SdToolKitCustom.py module, for examples see Revolution.py and BarbarianCiv.py (it's sometimes imported as SDTK).

I somehow missed this post. Thank you, I'll look into this

yep, building multiple pyre zombies per turn with command post and heroic epic. it's effective with Last Days, but without it the AC raises too slowly for the horsemen to be a real danger.

I reckon that with a relatively big city it would be possible to pump the AC by +3 each turn instead of by +1. That is IMO impossible to counter in any way.

EDIT: I finally managed to reproduce, identify and fix the insidiously complicated bug with the Sidar Severed Souls and their supply costs: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13313216#post13313216

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

make sure Clan are still able to raise AC by +2 each turn via warrens if possible

 

[A Moon]

re: haste, can it be just made to work similar to how the spell buildings work ( inspiration, hope etc. ) i.e. the effect does not wear off as long as there's a unit with body 1 in the stack? it works like that in Fall Further and it's much more convenient

RiFE has/had this, and it was caused a lot of slowdown.