Fall Flat Release

[Iceciro]

I... have no idea. Even if I misplaced a zero somewhere, I haven't edited passive XP gain for archery units.

I guess if it was like, turn 1000 on normal speed they could've gotten it through command posts, except neither of the Svalt leaders are Organized.

Do you have the savegame? I'm rather curious.

 

[Gedwyn]

Sure, here ya go.

 

[ICanHasName?]

What happens is a hostile yet not very agressive unit (like a elephant or frostling) comes up next to a city with archers. The archers ranged attack it getting 1-2 free exp and the unit decides its damaged so should sit there and heal. This goes on until the target unit leaves or gets killed by something which could take a LONG time.

In my Amurite game I penned in a Svalty hidden nationality archer unit and just had all my spare archers sit there bombarding it every single turn. Result: Combat V Drill II Archery III firebows without ever risking one in combat or building archery ranges

It actually kindof a problem because 1) Its free XP/damage with no risk, and your unit keeps its move point 2) Its faster then all the training buildings making them obsolete 3) It has no limit as far as I can tell 4) works even if the target unit recieves 0 damage (so you can have infinite archers farming a goblin forever) and 5) leads to really nasty stacks of uber archers and longbows.

 

[Iceciro]

This is, however, not a Fall Flat problem as the XP for ranged combat is (As far as I know) a DLL issue. It's been brought up in Fall Further's bug thread.

Or to put it another way - Xien needs to fix it because I'm not up to messing around in the DLLs yet (I'd break something.)

 

[Gedwyn]

Hrm, so in essence Archer units are getting xp for using a ranged attack even if the unit they attack doesn't die? That's kind of strange. Why would xp be awarded without a death?

Anyways, I'll go check out the bug thread discussion.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Hrm, so in essence Archer units are getting xp for using a ranged attack even if the unit they attack doesn't die? That's kind of strange. Why would xp be awarded without a death?

Anyways, I'll go check out the bug thread discussion.

It is for the same reason defensive strikes give XP. Makes archery units more competitive with the rest of the units.

 

[Gedwyn]

Sure, that makes sense...but hopefully the AI will be evolved to the point where it's not giving away so much free xp as it is now.

A wounded unit that is AI controlled will just sit there and try to heal...meanwhile with an Archer or 2 just plugging away at it every round, it will never fully heal, and therefore never move...and be stuck in this free xp awarding loop.

Maybe next patch

 

[WarKirby]

I love the ranged attacks giving xp, and I'd really rather not see that changed.

The problem here, is that the AI doesn't see sitting next to an archer as a threat. This is an exploit of the AI, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the xp giving mechanic of ranged attacks.

 

[Vehem]

Sure, that makes sense...but hopefully the AI will be evolved to the point where it's not giving away so much free xp as it is now.

A wounded unit that is AI controlled will just sit there and try to heal...meanwhile with an Archer or 2 just plugging away at it every round, it will never fully heal, and therefore never move...and be stuck in this free xp awarding loop.

Maybe next patch

I love the ranged attacks giving xp, and I'd really rather not see that changed.

The problem here, is that the AI doesn't see sitting next to an archer as a threat. This is an exploit of the AI, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the xp giving mechanic of ranged attacks.

I figured this would be an issue in some camps, so I actually made it a global define.

Assets\GlobalDefinesAlt.xml

	<Define>
		<DefineName>RANGE_COMBAT_XP_PERCENTAGE</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>5</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

That can be zero'd or increased to suit how you want it.

Either way - it's not a Fall Flat issue, it's one of mine.

 

[Iceciro]

Is that a percentage of what the ranged attacker would get if he destroyed the unit?

And is there any way for you to have it pulled if the ranged attacker doesn't do any damage? I mean, I have no issue with the system currently, except when a pile of archers does no damage to a unit but gets awarded XP.

 

[Vehem]

Is that a percentage of what the ranged attacker would get if he destroyed the unit?

And is there any way for you to have it pulled if the ranged attacker doesn't do any damage? I mean, I have no issue with the system currently, except when a pile of archers does no damage to a unit but gets awarded XP.

It's the percentage of damage done - which in a fair fight averages around 1.5XP. From what you said though, it may be percentage of damage that *would* be done, but it's calculating it before it's capped. I'll check that - but it should be % of actual damage.

 

[Breez]

I mean, I have no issue with the system currently, except when a pile of archers does no damage to a unit but gets awarded XP.

I am also seeing this. Definitely works this way.

 

[Vehem]

I am also seeing this. Definitely works this way.

Almost that way. It was actually worse - you were scoring 5% of the amount of damage the unit had taken altogether, so if the enemy unit was at 100% health and you scored 10% damage, you'd get 0.5. If it was at 75% health, you'd shoot, score nothing because of the damage cap, and then get 5% of the 25 health that was missing (1.25 XP).

	iDamage = rangeCombatDamage(pDefender);

	iUnitDamage = std::max(pDefender->getDamage(), std::min((pDefender->getDamage() + iDamage), airCombatLimit()));
/*************************************************************************************************/
/**	Vehem Tweak							03/11/09	 											**/
/**																								**/
/**		Allows ranged strikes to grant experience, controlled by global define					**/
/*************************************************************************************************/
	int iXPPercent = GC.getDefineINT("RANGE_COMBAT_XP_PERCENTAGE");
	if (iXPPercent > 0)
		changeExperience(iUnitDamage * iXPPercent, -1, false, false, false);
/*************************************************************************************************/
/**	Tweak									END													**/
/*************************************************************************************************/

iUnitDamage isn't the additional damage on the unit, it's the total damage level.

That's a bit wrong. Fixing it now.

 

[sharper_knives]

Watching you guys fix code on the fly in these forums is fascinating

 

[Jhoniten]

think it is fun watching this?
imagine what the team forum looks like.

 

[Iceciro]

Stop hijacking my thread to kiss someone else's butt! :_(

No really, I don't care and that Fall Further team is awesome (you know, would be hard to do Fall Flat without them!) Part of what I want Fall Flat to do is in some way provide a testing ground for odd things (see: Amurite changes) without polluting the main mod. Also, as long as it's released I can refer to my changes and not have people going "where do I download this fall flat thingie". So you know, any bit of this thread that helps the main mod is good.

 

[Jhoniten]

It all helps, we are all but part of a single community consciousness. Unfortunately sometimes the right hand has no clue what the left hand is doing or what the mouth is saying or even where the left foot will land next. But we all awake with a yelp everytime the butt hits the ground.

 

[Iceciro]

Is that to say, when we collectively Fall Flat on our butt?

Yeah yeah. I'm going back to my code now. Jeeeesh.

 

[Jhoniten]

ok that was not the exact intent of my wandering but if the shoe flies, throw it.

 

[Gedwyn]

(see: Amurite changes)

I'll get back to my Amurite game tonite or tomorrow and provide some feedback...was taking a break from them for a bit. Just about to start making Battlemages.

Edit: Btw: noticed you didn't make any changes to the Dural while skimming the changes listed back on page 1 of this thread...any plans for that Civ? I like them, being a builder type player myself with all the new wonders etc..but they surely could use some more flavour. And a better - or more productive - world spell. I tend to use Great Works in the tier 3 tech building area. At that point I'm building Great Library, Bone Palace, Catacomb L, Form of the Titan and the Great Lighthouse all withing 200 turns or so of each other (Marathon game)...so most likely I've got at least 2 of those if not more on the go at the same time. And 100 hammers just doesn't cut it for a 1 time spell use imo.