Fall Further Plus

[Sarisin]

I downloaded your modmodmod and patch and decided to start with d'Tesh. They are truly a learning experience and a lot of fun to play so far.

Here are some observations, suggestions, questions, etc. based on my first 150 turns.

1. Exploring with their Warriors is tough with the reduced strength and they just cannot kill anything entering your borders. Scouts are good though.

2. I am REALLY confused with who are their friends, who they can kill, etc. For example, I had a Wolf land on the same tile as my Scout - no attack. However, a Bear killed my Warrior. Also, no attack from an Orc Archer on my Scout which landed next to his fort. Yet, he fired on a Warrior that happened to stop by. I was later able to capture animals with my Scout/Hunter, but I don't know what happened with that Wolf in the early going.

3. Is there any way to change their flag color/design as this adds to the confusion? Again, even though a Skeleton appeared to have the same flag as my Warrior, it attacked and killed the Warrior.

4. It doesn't make sense to me for them to be an Agnostic trait civ and start with the Religion civic.

5. The Three Stooges have been nerfed in this mod. I'm not sure why, and I don't like it. However, what I really don't get is that they do not accumulate XP from their battles. I have been killing tons of Frostlings (damn that Samhain!) and Orcs and ZERO XP = ZERO Promotions. What's up with that?

OK, stay tuned for more.... So far it is a lot of fun playing them.

 

[far_wanderer]

I downloaded your modmodmod and patch and decided to start with d'Tesh. They are truly a learning experience and a lot of fun to play so far.

Here are some observations, suggestions, questions, etc. based on my first 150 turns.

1. Exploring with their Warriors is tough with the reduced strength and they just cannot kill anything entering your borders. Scouts are good though.

2. I am REALLY confused with who are their friends, who they can kill, etc. For example, I had a Wolf land on the same tile as my Scout - no attack. However, a Bear killed my Warrior. Also, no attack from an Orc Archer on my Scout which landed next to his fort. Yet, he fired on a Warrior that happened to stop by. I was later able to capture animals with my Scout/Hunter, but I don't know what happened with that Wolf in the early going.

3. Is there any way to change their flag color/design as this adds to the confusion? Again, even though a Skeleton appeared to have the same flag as my Warrior, it attacked and killed the Warrior.

4. It doesn't make sense to me for them to be an Agnostic trait civ and start with the Religion civic.

5. The Three Stooges have been nerfed in this mod. I'm not sure why, and I don't like it. However, what I really don't get is that they do not accumulate XP from their battles. I have been killing tons of Frostlings (damn that Samhain!) and Orcs and ZERO XP = ZERO Promotions. What's up with that?

OK, stay tuned for more.... So far it is a lot of fun playing them.

I can answer some of those. Many of the problems you encountered are the result of a D'Tesh mechanic - each class of unit has a promotion automatically applied to it that has a chance of capturing slaves from combat and some additional effects. Recon units are invisible (the people not attacking you), Melee units have reduced strength and cannot gain experience, but have Death affinity (the nerfed stooges, for other civs the are unchanged), Archery units I believe get a small bonus to defensive strikes, and I forget what Mounted units get but I remember I didn't like the looks of it.

Your palace gives you a 50% defense bonus, so that's your solution to barbarians until you can get archers or some more death mana.

Their mage guild replacement negates all health and happiness penalties, so head straight for that if you haven't already. Their arcane line is also really good - they take longer to upgrade, but have higher strength and some affinities later on, plus the Archmage UU is immortal.

 

[Sarisin]

I really appreciate your response and it explains a lot.

Is there a source that explains the d'Tesh somewhere and things like this or is it more just trial and error.

Yes, I will really have to change my normal style of play with this civ.

 

[far_wanderer]

I really appreciate your response and it explains a lot.

Is there a source that explains the d'Tesh somewhere and things like this or is it more just trial and error.

Yes, I will really have to change my normal style of play with this civ.

There's a link to the original D'Tesh thread in post 2 of this thread, but the changelog in that thread is a little out of date so not everything is correct. Other than that, trail and error plus reading the civilopedia a lot is all I can suggest. I'll offer what few additional hints I can think of:

Watchers, your worker UU, auto-scorch (this is a good thing for you) and can build an improvement called a pyre on many types of bonus resources, turning them into something more useful too you. The pyre icon is the same as the one for workshops (unless it changed recently) so it's easy to miss if you don't know about it.

Build graveyards a lot - they are very good for you., and get better as you progress down the arcane research line.

Slaves are how you increase your population, although at turn 150 you've probably figured that out.

You can transfer population between cities with a spell that converts population back into slaves. It's useful for taking cities, draining their population, and then letting them be retaken.

Beware of demons, angels, elementals, other undead, and anything else with significant death resistance or immunity. Most of your units have almost all of their strength in the form of death damage.

 

[Sarisin]

There's a link to the original D'Tesh thread in post 2 of this thread, but the changelog in that thread is a little out of date so not everything is correct. Other than that, trail and error plus reading the civilopedia a lot is all I can suggest. I'll offer what few additional hints I can think of:

Watchers, your worker UU, auto-scorch (this is a good thing for you) and can build an improvement called a pyre on many types of bonus resources, turning them into something more useful too you. The pyre icon is the same as the one for workshops (unless it changed recently) so it's easy to miss if you don't know about it.

Build graveyards a lot - they are very good for you., and get better as you progress down the arcane research line.

Slaves are how you increase your population, although at turn 150 you've probably figured that out.

You can transfer population between cities with a spell that converts population back into slaves. It's useful for taking cities, draining their population, and then letting them be retaken.

Beware of demons, angels, elementals, other undead, and anything else with significant death resistance or immunity. Most of your units have almost all of their strength in the form of death damage.

OK, I read page 2 and saw some words about adding the d'Tesh, but I couldn't find the link. Anyway, you have been very helpful with your tips.

Stupid me, there was a graveyard when I settled my capital and I quickly explored it getting rid of it. Also, I have 4-5 deserts in my cross and was lamenting that - but, it looks like a good thing for the d'Tesh.

I haven't built a Watcher yet - I have been using a couple of Slaves to build the usual improvements - mines, pastures, roads, etc.

I saw they could be used to add population and then converted back to Slaves again. It was a bit wonky though as some Slaves appeared to be able to Hurry Production (without Slavery) while some could not.

Another dumb thing I did - I have been playing FF with the Armageddon Counter turned off to avoid the double and triple Blights. Well, I guess with the d'Tesh, Blight is not a problem!

 

[BiffQJ]

I'm not sure if this has been talked about (or if this is the right place to ask...), but what's the reasoning behind the two leaders of the Mechanos? One seems way overpowered compared to the other (three traits instead of two). Don't get me wrong, I really like the charismatic trait, but in my opinion, having both philosophical (more great engineers) and industrious (quicker wonders to get those aforementioned engineers) definitely seems a lot better. Am I missing something? Is there something that the charismatic one gets that I don't see when I am picking a leader from the custom screen?

 

[Hawkwood]

Means I goofed somewhere on a promotion, I'll look at it. For now, I need to sleep. Been out all day, . .. .. .. .ed up my back.... Going to try and sleep it off.

I've found the mistake, the tag <Description> in CIV4PromotionInfos can't handle spaces. So after I've removed every space by changing such things as

<Description>Siege Combat</Description>

to

<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SIEGE_COMBAT</Description>

and added a new file in the text folder with

    <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SIEGE_COMBAT</Tag>
        <English>Siege Combat</English>
    </TEXT>

I can use the Promotion adding/removing part of the world builder again.

 

[Sarisin]

Two things, one about FF+ and the other about the d'Tesh:

1. This is the only version of FFH I have seen that allows the AI to explore lairs, dungeons, graveyards, etc. with no movement pts. left. For example, an AI Scout is two tiles away from a dungeon. It moves to that dungeon AND is able to explore it. Is this intended? If so, it doesn't work that way for the human player and I'm guessing it might be a bug.

2. The other thing is with the resource improvement of the d'Tesh. I realize things are different for them, however some of it isn't making sense to me. For example, I can build a Horse Pasture with a Slave, but if I move my Watcher there, it can only build a Graveyard...and, of course turns the terrain to desert. Then, I moved both the Slave and the Watcher to a Corn resource and neither were able to build a Farm. I know I don't need the food, but I need some health for now. Finally, I saw that a yarang (?) was OK to get Arctic Deer resource. I think I built that structure, but no Arctic Deer and I can't see the Yarang. I do have Hunting.

What's going on?

Thank you.

 

[Sarisin]

Here's another one that I'm not sure is a feature of FF+:

In the screenshot you can see a barb Lizard Ranger that spawned inside my borders. Earlier I had a Wolf Pack do the same.

The Wolf Pack was countered with a Hunter, but I'm wondering what brought a Tier III barb unit fairly early in the game - certainly before I had a chance to build any Tier III units and I am number one in techs.

So, two issues:

1. Barbs spawning INSIDE your borders and

2. Barbs stronger than the 'going strength' spawning.

 

[Hawkwood]

Either the chance of spawning adventurers is too high, or classical starts break it. I've just started a game as Prime Minister Esirce and while I did start next to a branching river in a desert, I still think six adventurers 33 turns into the game is too many.

EDIT: This is getting ridiculous, I've now got nine at turn 152 (remember that you don't start at turn 1 in a classical start). I've was more aggressive/less of a builder and had more money I could upgrade 3-4 of them to warriors and steamroll an opponent or two, and still have 5-6 for a later rush when I got more gold.

EDIT2: And just like if fate wanted to show how ridiculous it can get, I've got 2 more adventurers since the last edit, which was just 5 turns ago.

 

[Sarisin]

Yes, I'll confirm this from my game.

Cassiel is to my South and popping Adventurers every 10 turns or so.

Also, I have to mention again that the spawning of barb units INSIDE borders is a real killer. Three times I have had barb units spawn right next to my units - Watchers twice. They spawned and moved, killing my units before I had a chance.

It is bad enough when they spawn right on your borders, but this is ridiculous - especially early in the game with Lizardman Rangers!

 

[far_wanderer]

OK, I read page 2 and saw some words about adding the d'Tesh, but I couldn't find the link. Anyway, you have been very helpful with your tips.

Stupid me, there was a graveyard when I settled my capital and I quickly explored it getting rid of it. Also, I have 4-5 deserts in my cross and was lamenting that - but, it looks like a good thing for the d'Tesh.

I haven't built a Watcher yet - I have been using a couple of Slaves to build the usual improvements - mines, pastures, roads, etc.

I saw they could be used to add population and then converted back to Slaves again. It was a bit wonky though as some Slaves appeared to be able to Hurry Production (without Slavery) while some could not.

Another dumb thing I did - I have been playing FF with the Armageddon Counter turned off to avoid the double and triple Blights. Well, I guess with the d'Tesh, Blight is not a problem!

Post 2, not page 2. The link is in the credits post. Graveyards that you explore are actually different from the graveyards you can build as the D'Tesh, so you didn't do anything wrong (building explorable graveyards would be a bit overpowered). You should build a Watcher - slaves are far better used as population.

Two things, one about FF+ and the other about the d'Tesh:

1. This is the only version of FFH I have seen that allows the AI to explore lairs, dungeons, graveyards, etc. with no movement pts. left. For example, an AI Scout is two tiles away from a dungeon. It moves to that dungeon AND is able to explore it. Is this intended? If so, it doesn't work that way for the human player and I'm guessing it might be a bug.

2. The other thing is with the resource improvement of the d'Tesh. I realize things are different for them, however some of it isn't making sense to me. For example, I can build a Horse Pasture with a Slave, but if I move my Watcher there, it can only build a Graveyard...and, of course turns the terrain to desert. Then, I moved both the Slave and the Watcher to a Corn resource and neither were able to build a Farm. I know I don't need the food, but I need some health for now. Finally, I saw that a yarang (?) was OK to get Arctic Deer resource. I think I built that structure, but no Arctic Deer and I can't see the Yarang. I do have Hunting.

What's going on?

Thank you.

1 - Really? I can explore dungeons just fine without movement left, in regular FF too, you just have to go back and reselect the unit. I've never seen the AI take advantage of that, though.
2 - Horses are a bit of a pseudo-bug right now, as you can only get access to them with slaves. For the corn and arctic deer, I don't know why the slave can't build a farm, or the cause of your troubles with the yarang, but you shouldn't want those to work anyway. Those are the places to use watchers to build that pyre I mentioned earlier. Health resources don't do you any good - even if your cities are horrendously unhealthy, all it does is give you a food penalty. And your people don't need food.

Here's another one that I'm not sure is a feature of FF+:

In the screenshot you can see a barb Lizard Ranger that spawned inside my borders. Earlier I had a Wolf Pack do the same.

The Wolf Pack was countered with a Hunter, but I'm wondering what brought a Tier III barb unit fairly early in the game - certainly before I had a chance to build any Tier III units and I am number one in techs.

So, two issues:

1. Barbs spawning INSIDE your borders and

2. Barbs stronger than the 'going strength' spawning.

Wolf packs can spawn quite early, and wolves also have a chance of upgrading to them after combat. The ranger is a puzzler, though. The only thing I can think of is that it came from a lair exploration and walked in from outside, but in your screenshot it's facing the wrong direction to have walked in.

I do notice from your screenshot that you're building the Catacomb Libralus - that was a very good thing to do.

 

[Valkrionn]

OK, I read page 2 and saw some words about adding the d'Tesh, but I couldn't find the link. Anyway, you have been very helpful with your tips.

Stupid me, there was a graveyard when I settled my capital and I quickly explored it getting rid of it. Also, I have 4-5 deserts in my cross and was lamenting that - but, it looks like a good thing for the d'Tesh.

I haven't built a Watcher yet - I have been using a couple of Slaves to build the usual improvements - mines, pastures, roads, etc.

I saw they could be used to add population and then converted back to Slaves again. It was a bit wonky though as some Slaves appeared to be able to Hurry Production (without Slavery) while some could not.

Another dumb thing I did - I have been playing FF with the Armageddon Counter turned off to avoid the double and triple Blights. Well, I guess with the d'Tesh, Blight is not a problem!

Desert is a VERY good thing for the D'tesh. Even more so than for the Malakim.

Slaves can be added to the population and removed, but if removed the population goes down one. And I believe only slaves who have not added to population can hurry production.

I'm not sure if this has been talked about (or if this is the right place to ask...), but what's the reasoning behind the two leaders of the Mechanos? One seems way overpowered compared to the other (three traits instead of two). Don't get me wrong, I really like the charismatic trait, but in my opinion, having both philosophical (more great engineers) and industrious (quicker wonders to get those aforementioned engineers) definitely seems a lot better. Am I missing something? Is there something that the charismatic one gets that I don't see when I am picking a leader from the custom screen?

Maer is a minor leader, able to gain traits as you play. This post here should tell you how to get the traits.... If you aren't using Patch A, she doesn't have minor because I hadn't merged that in yet.

I've found the mistake, the tag <Description> in CIV4PromotionInfos can't handle spaces. So after I've removed every space by changing such things as

<Description>Siege Combat</Description>

to

<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SIEGE_COMBAT</Description>

and added a new file in the text folder with

    <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SIEGE_COMBAT</Tag>
        <English>Siege Combat</English>
    </TEXT>

I can use the Promotion adding/removing part of the world builder again.

Damn, thought so... Looks like I'm going to have fun making a bunch of txtkeys. I knew there was a reason to use those, but I got lazy.

Two things, one about FF+ and the other about the d'Tesh:

1. This is the only version of FFH I have seen that allows the AI to explore lairs, dungeons, graveyards, etc. with no movement pts. left. For example, an AI Scout is two tiles away from a dungeon. It moves to that dungeon AND is able to explore it. Is this intended? If so, it doesn't work that way for the human player and I'm guessing it might be a bug.

2. The other thing is with the resource improvement of the d'Tesh. I realize things are different for them, however some of it isn't making sense to me. For example, I can build a Horse Pasture with a Slave, but if I move my Watcher there, it can only build a Graveyard...and, of course turns the terrain to desert. Then, I moved both the Slave and the Watcher to a Corn resource and neither were able to build a Farm. I know I don't need the food, but I need some health for now. Finally, I saw that a yarang (?) was OK to get Arctic Deer resource. I think I built that structure, but no Arctic Deer and I can't see the Yarang. I do have Hunting.

What's going on?

Thank you.

It's like that in FF as well, actually. I haven't touched it.

Yeah, the horse issue is a bug, and I think I added the Yaranga build order to the watcher on accident.

Here's another one that I'm not sure is a feature of FF+:

In the screenshot you can see a barb Lizard Ranger that spawned inside my borders. Earlier I had a Wolf Pack do the same.

The Wolf Pack was countered with a Hunter, but I'm wondering what brought a Tier III barb unit fairly early in the game - certainly before I had a chance to build any Tier III units and I am number one in techs.

So, two issues:

1. Barbs spawning INSIDE your borders and

2. Barbs stronger than the 'going strength' spawning.

I have no idea how it would spawn in your borders, but I haven't touched it, so it would be a base FF bug. One that I have no idea how to fix.

Animals, however, are a bit stronger since Doviello+. I've added a few new animals, a few new packs, etc.

Either the chance of spawning adventurers is too high, or classical starts break it. I've just started a game as Prime Minister Esirce and while I did start next to a branching river in a desert, I still think six adventurers 33 turns into the game is too many.

EDIT: This is getting ridiculous, I've now got nine at turn 152 (remember that you don't start at turn 1 in a classical start). I've was more aggressive/less of a builder and had more money I could upgrade 3-4 of them to warriors and steamroll an opponent or two, and still have 5-6 for a later rush when I got more gold.

EDIT2: And just like if fate wanted to show how ridiculous it can get, I've got 2 more adventurers since the last edit, which was just 5 turns ago.

Well, classical start WOULD bump up the spawn rate as you'd start with the spawn buildings in your cities, but I'm sure the spawn rate is too high. I didn't do much balancing, I just made it work. Any thoughts you have about the spawn rate would be helpful.

 

[Valkrionn]

Since noone's commented on it, here's what the FFPlus background looks like.

Also, second Easter Egg - I made trophies for all of the FF(plus) civilizations.

 

[far_wanderer]

Since noone's commented on it, here's what the FFPlus background looks like.

Also, second Easter Egg - I made trophies for all of the FF(plus) civilizations.

I think the problem you're having with people not finding easter eggs is that it's hard tell what's an easter egg and what's simply an ordinary addition that isn't explicitly mentioned in the changelog. Had I seen that one, I wouldn't have thought it was an easter egg.

In pseudo-easter egg related news, I spotted the Auditor last game wandering through my territory. It made me smile, but then he killed my Hidden Nationality Witch Hunter.

 

[darkedone02]

I love the music that you put into the your new religion for the mechs, however I think there need to be more. Silent Hill and other songs during their eerie emotional state seem to fit this, but we do need something different. You should add in some tracks from the game series called Shadow Hearts, you might gain more better music...

http://www.bluelaguna.net

in this website you can find some songs from many other games.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think the problem you're having with people not finding easter eggs is that it's hard tell what's an easter egg and what's simply an ordinary addition that isn't explicitly mentioned in the changelog. Had I seen that one, I wouldn't have thought it was an easter egg.

In pseudo-easter egg related news, I spotted the Auditor last game wandering through my territory. It made me smile, but then he killed my Hidden Nationality Witch Hunter.

Yeah, that's basically the problem. There were so many changes that a few just weren't mentioned. Base FF has not added trophies yet... I need to make one for the Gone To Hell victory also.

And the auditor is pretty much an easter egg. I mentioned him in a few places, but it was so long ago that I'm sure people have forgotten. The last remaining easter egg I can think of, also concerns the Khazad....

@Darkedone02 - I'm planning on grabbing more music.

 

[Hawkwood]

Well, classical start WOULD bump up the spawn rate as you'd start with the spawn buildings in your cities, but I'm sure the spawn rate is too high. I didn't do much balancing, I just made it work. Any thoughts you have about the spawn rate would be helpful.

All those adventurers spawned while I only had one city (since I like having a well-built and well-defended city before expanding), buildings or not, running out of named adventurers before turn 300 on a small map seems rather overpowered.

Also, second Easter Egg - I made trophies for all of the FF(plus) civilizations.

While I can't speak for others, one of the reasons I wouldn't have found any of those Easter Eggs, is that as far as I understand Easter Eggs is more like having the Auditor's background entry mention a certain "Rentahs", than adding stuff without mentioning it.

While I don't know if I just misunderstood the concept Easter Eggs, that is one of the reasons I haven't found any (the other one being that I'm really lousy at finding hidden stuff in games).

 

[Sarisin]

Post 2, not page 2. The link is in the credits post. Graveyards that you explore are actually different from the graveyards you can build as the D'Tesh, so you didn't do anything wrong (building explorable graveyards would be a bit overpowered). You should build a Watcher - slaves are far better used as population.

1 - Really? I can explore dungeons just fine without movement left, in regular FF too, you just have to go back and reselect the unit. I've never seen the AI take advantage of that, though.
2 - Horses are a bit of a pseudo-bug right now, as you can only get access to them with slaves. For the corn and arctic deer, I don't know why the slave can't build a farm, or the cause of your troubles with the yarang, but you shouldn't want those to work anyway. Those are the places to use watchers to build that pyre I mentioned earlier. Health resources don't do you any good - even if your cities are horrendously unhealthy, all it does is give you a food penalty. And your people don't need food.

Wolf packs can spawn quite early, and wolves also have a chance of upgrading to them after combat. The ranger is a puzzler, though. The only thing I can think of is that it came from a lair exploration and walked in from outside, but in your screenshot it's facing the wrong direction to have walked in.

I do notice from your screenshot that you're building the Catacomb Libralus - that was a very good thing to do.

Yes, I discovered that about Graveyards later after I started building them. It would really be an exploit if you could explore the ones you built.

I am in mid-game now (around Turn 500/epic) and things that you have told me are becoming more clear. The Watchers are traveling around my borders turning everything inside to desert. I seem to get the Slave is spurts. I will go many turns/battles not getting any, but then, when I defeat a band of 5 barb orcs I will get 2-3 Slaves.

I have to check that about being to explore lairs, graveyards, etc. with no movement pts. left. I thought it simply could not be done, and I have never noticed the AI doing it except in FF+. Also, other strange AI behavior is I have seen AI units mulling around lairs, etc. and they will not explore until you are on top of one.

I haven't gotten to the point of being able to build pyres yet. I understand now about the food/health resources being a waste, but still don't understand why they couldn't be built.

I have had at least 6 barb units spawn inside my borders so far. As I mentioned, the only time I have seen this happen with FF is when the AC is very high (it is in the 20s in my game, but the Wolf Pack/Ranger showed up before) and the demons will spawn inside borders. The reason I included the screenshot was to show that the Age of the Ranger was 0 and there was no way it could have moved to that spot inside my borders. It spawned there.

I am learning as you predicted that the melee and mounted lines are a real waste to the d'Tesh. In the early game you are much better off building Scouts, upgrading them to Hunters, then to Rangers/Assassins. Warriors and Horsemen get no XP promotions unless you have a Training Field/Jousting Arena. The Stooges, a real significant part of my game strategy with other civs, are not so good with the d'Tesh.

Honestly, I'm finding Animals better than many of the d'Tesh units. I captured Wolf Packs and an Elk and they were early decent units, especially the Elk with Haste. Also, it was bizarre with a captured Mammoth. It was gaining XP (defending) UNTIL I converted it into a Mammoth Rider. When it went from Animal to Mounted unit, the XP/promotions stopped.

I should be getting near Tier IV units soon and that will be fun, however, the lousy Archos have half the world and are getting frisky with their stacks of doom.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sorry for my lack of posts today, was at my cousin's graduation... Man I feel old.

As for the D'teshi flag, after a quick search of the database I've found this... I'm thinking either the mordor or orc flag?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2812