Fall Further - The Original Thread

[woodelf]

Check the downloads section for the Tower of Air Magic that win and I made. It might be a good start to see what's possible.

edit - here's the link.

 

[Slvynn]

Its cool as base, i'll come home from job and will draw some technical illustration + simplify my scribblings.
The parts are : tower, mazes beneath towers, that rock formation + ladder?

few magic looking towers : silvery gray with light neon blue lights in it,
mazes at foothold
rock formation coming down towards earth (like illustrated,)


It can be one big tower, surrounded by ladder of mazes in form of pyramid.

 

[Vehem]

Well Oghma isnt wisdom, she is Knowledge... Intelligence and Wisdom are different things, and Knowledge = Int, according D&D. Sirona is FfH Erebus god of Wisdom, according Kael's set. so Oghma is not wisdom by all means, just plain knowledge, studying, intelligence, magic, and somewhat unhuman and snobbish, while wisdom driven sirona is much much humane.
Kadhi are led by ambitious wizard Kadh ("Followers of Kadh"), that percieve his own interests of power and knowledge, while he is Oghma worshipper so tend to remain neutral side, instead getting AV side. His power and manipulation through summoning and magic of those plannar creatures and thing that Oghma haven was battlefield of gods, is enough for actually Dark Fantasy game to bring them to a scene as side that values knowledge most than all, but , actually untolerable, snobish and somewhat evil towards normal common human beings. Gremlins and djinns are also not strict hight fantasy, and there is tint of dark fantasy to make them hostile toward "puny humans"

If people like it why not to add it, its also differs from all other civ material that currently exist.
Really trying to convince you, because it seems (and seem not only for me) interesting idea, and you are main modmod dev and drive.

Idea seem original, and can get some changes on way, but surely Oghma creatures can fight human under possesion of some very powerfull wizard-Oghma champion-summoner.

Now that description is more persuasive An arrogant high-wizardpriest manipulating the extra-planars whilst his main followers are human. I'm just looking for a bigger gameplay distinction from the Amurites (students of Magic). Oghma followers would certainly have advantages when it comes to research, but almost all of the current research paths lead into some form of combat techs.

I'm also working on another, unreleased/unannounced project at the moment with some other members of the forum (not FfH related) - so I'd have to balance any work done on adding another civ against making progress on that too.

 

[Slvynn]

Btw Kadh kinda competetive with Amurites. Kadh is D&D True/Chaotic Neutral , arrogant, ambitious and self-ruled, and unlikely to go with law-friendly, hieararchial Lawfull Neutral D&D Amurites.
So point of conflict here is Mana nodes. They both like resereach , knowledge and stuff, but in Kaels Dark Fantasy its seems right they will be actually conflicting, competing nations.

 

[Slvynn]

More about Kadh personality - he is silent man, very clever and throughtfull... Outland sight and silence he keeping hiding enormous drive ambition. His hidden agenda is Cosmos. And Power, power of God, that can be compared only to the One. Its not that he want to be a god, he see world as different, endless substance, With endless bodies and forms filling it, while being nothing.
He is egocentric and hardly believe in things he imagine. He lived for long time already, and while knowing he is not immortal of any kind, he still not met his end, and may be he will not, or if yes, in some very strange, unclear and different form as live and not live beings used to end their existence in known planes for him. He lives in never ending mystery, and he feels that he know about existence of some things , than even gods cant imagine existence of those things. He wants to know, to understand those mysteries he live in, but he knows he never will understand all. His motifs and things that drive him are unclear for him, but he knows he need to do that in order to get "deeper into a mystery". He seen things but dont know what are they, and why he see them.
Most of his closest followers not talking ever. Most of communication done by telepathy and fast understanding (best need not know what he meant to say, they understand sometimes things before he even can transfer them his own needs/orders/ideas. He like when people understand much. He is very snobbish and arrogant to those who not respect knowledge. He hate intrigues, sides , nor good , nor evil, but respect power, and knowledge obcourse.
He easy making someone trust him, and even if not, he can force to get his side. Mind control is thing that he does very good, if even possible to find any mortal that can challenge him in mind control skills.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It sounds like he is more representative of Oghama's vault now, where Mammon has more control than she does.

 

[Slvynn]

so as he represented check which god arts he actually use - Mammon , mind.
He was influenced by Mammon presence, and while he colpletely in his suggestive undestanding make serve to Oghma, his uncontrolled, not suggestive actions are often have more similarity to one who acts on behalf Mammon. He will never will be follower of Mammon but he have some part of his presence deep hidden in his soul.
Not greed , but strong ambition, desire for power, mind manipulation and other methods to aquire things he need via use of force , be it physical or mental, of one who urge to solve mysteries layed upon him, and "know" much things possible about his seeings and visions.

Also i have soundtrack i think for him (Diplo).
Some cut from track Oort - Murcof , Cosmos [2007].
http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=742400&song=Oort
or
http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=742417&song=Cometa
Its 9-12 min tracks , but on this site only 1:30 samples aviable.

 

[Slvynn]

It sounds like he is more representative of Oghama's vault now, where Mammon has more control than she does.

quite it is actually

 

[GhostQ]

One little thing: Make that Kadhi hero 3 str with +2 affinity imho; as they have 1 starting dimensional mana. And affinity is really powerful; 3 affinity is just broken; just 2 nodes will add 6 str.

 

[Vehem]

Not really a fan of the soundtrack songs (very atonal as opposed to the generally melodic ones used in FfH and the sustained note on the second one would probably make me avoid ever using Diplomacy with them )

I am a fan however of the Oghma/Mammon overlap however. I may even be able to build that into a civ-feature, with a decision later in the game that allows him to either achieve Mammon's ambitions, or to realize what is happening and to truly serve Oghma.

Even if it's not built into the civ-mechanic, it would make an excellent backstory for him.

One little thing: Make that Kadhi hero 3 str with +2 affinity imho; as they have 1 starting dimensional mana. And affinity is really powerful; 3 affinity is just broken; just 2 nodes will add 6 str.

I'd have to agree that affinity is dangerous. I had Chalid upto ridiculously high levels of strength combined with Crown of Brilliance and Summon Aurealis in 030, simply because he had +2 affinity. He got a 99.9% vs Abashi at one point. I'd be tempted to split the affinity itself between the two different spheres for Oghma and Mammon as well (Metamagic and Mind if I remember correctly) to emphasize the duality...

 

[Good Sauce]

Slvynn's ideas are really similar to mine for changing the Dural several pages back, but with better flavor, and more fleshed out ideas. good work.
What kind of drawbacks did you have in mind for them? In my opinion a civs drawbacks are at least as important as its strengths in making it feel unique.
(My idea had been an elitist mage college rulling over peasants. they get bonuses to research and stronger arcane units, but their melee units are weaker and gain exp slower) (the leaders are only interested in the advancement of knowledge and ignore their followers unless they are rebelling or to take time out for experiments)

 

[Slvynn]

For soundtrak - its just proposal , its some music i listen at home and though that it fit, but there is a wrong sample too... the initial track is 12 min kraut opera, and there are soem really good places for Kadh.

For ideas feeadback - thnx alot , i am glad you like it at this point. I will try to come bit later wit hsome visual sketches, and i think that current direction of Kadh back story is nice and interesting.
For afinity - its Awesome idea Vehem to make something in-game builtin mechanism for Kadh duality.
For hero it seems str 3 + 1 mind affinity +1 metamagic. But i think a hero is not Kadh himself, may be his replica. He decide to learn himself and understand further his own personality just by magically, through long and tiring ritual, make physical replica of him. So, hero is Kadh-das, or Kadh's replica, created by himself. There is a some strange reason he will be never able to replic himself, may be this power was given to him for advancing in his way to understanding through see his duality from his own eyes, as just 2nd himself. The power given.... by somewhat that is more than even those puny gods... something he still trying to find and recognize.


Drawbacks:
No Religion.
Few UU here and there (full recon line but partial melee). No disciple units mostly at all (exception is for his backstory, at late part of game to give him to make "an understanding" and beeither on Mind path or Metamagic path, and then civ get different UU disciple unit.
Their army mostly gremlins, other metamagic creatures, Followers (UU, human Erebus inhabitants followers, converted to Kadh side by own will to learn or by will of Kadh itself , as he saw potent students , and then obtained them as followers... um.. by changing the way they think..
Simple melee units (not followers types) have some weakness in production cost. The production of some melee units should be increased (Axeman at 110-120 % cost), but have Mental immunity (immune to Domination) and + 30% str with djinn, Illusion, elemental.
He have some close round of his loyal human helpers-bodyguards, but noone know who they are really. (Druid replacement UU, national unit)
Kadhi cities have instant, all-time existing feeling of mystery, uncertainity and undecision. Streets are silen and major conversation that going on Kadhi cities is eye comunication, and telepathy for already enlightened. Tehy are product of some way of evolution that Kadh teach them to pass.

 

[Slvynn]

Woodelf : this is more fine concept sketch for Kadh tower. (Kadhi palace)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

what kind of unit graphics would the khad use? they seem pretty alien to me

 

[Good Sauce]

Yeah, the 'alien' thing is something to be careful of. See: Draenai in WOW, they completely destroy the fantasy feel.

 

[Slvynn]

No space aliens. Some alienation should be but it should be very fantasy one. They are grown society of young telepaths and tallented people led and controlled straightly by Kadh, young people who passed further in their "evolution". Followers are UU mages, wearing light gray robes, Their look is fantasy one , buildings white-silverish with gold and shining neon blue elements. Havilly-ornated with middle-eastern motifs (arabic/turkish style)
Gremlins are gremlins, djinns are djinns, summons are summons. Heavy tights to Oghma plane, telepathy, mysticism. Meelee units wear same silverish-white robes, while heaviest one use some colored platting on robes. Their style may be somewhat like Ottoman/Turkish style . (Warriors wear, head accesories). But it should not look like exact Ottomans, but very different, while using some forms of ottoman wear.
The forms they using should be rounded, curved, no much straight lines/ angles.
Also their concept is uncertainity, doubt, seek of understanding, cosmos, choice, for now, so i think it should influence somehow their appearance. Also mind that most of Kadh loyals are silent most of time, so their fashion should fit it well.
The robes of Arcane University and Arcane Brotherhood from Neverwinter nights 1-2 (less colorfull) (Forgotten Realms) should fit actually as good sample of styling.
I'll check aviable units later should find some good base for them. Most of their units will be easy to do from recoloring/adjusting already existing ffh/civ4/bts units.

 

[Good Sauce]

No aliens. Followers are UU mages, wearing light gray robes, Their look is fantasy one , buildings white-silverish with gold and shining neon blue elements.
Gremlins are gremlins, djinns are djinns, summons are summons. Meelee units wear same silverish-white robes, while heaviest one use some colored platting on robes. Their style may be somewhat like Ottoman/Turkish style . (Warriors wear, head accesories). But it should not look like exact Ottomans, but very different, while using some forms of ottoman wear.
The forms they using should be rounded, curved, no much straight lines/ angles.
Also their concept is uncertainity, doubt, seek of understanding, cosmos, choice for now, so i think it should influence somehow their appearance.
I'll check aviable units later should find some good base for them. Most of their units will be easy to do from recoloring/adjusting already existing ffh/civ4/bts units.

I knew you didn't mean literal aliens, obviously. I was just commenting that their aesthetic style is such that it could slip into that spacey-silvery-crystalline motif and it's something to beware of.

 

[Slvynn]

LEts just stick for heavilly ornated, light gray - neon blue vearings with some tint of middle-eastern style. Young society of tallented telepaths and evolutionists led by ambitious powerfull wizard. They somewhat like sheaim in part there is no nation - Kadhi means Kadh followers- and they , as Sheaim, just people gathered from other nations/cities under Kadh lead in order to perform the evolution.

 

[Vehem]

On an unrelated issue - I'd like some quick feedback on a possible idea for "limiting" the Chislev a little.

Problem
They are correctly building many cities and using the Councils to keep maintenance manageable, but in the late game when happiness is less of an issue, these cities are becoming collectively very powerful.

Possible solution
City-size caps. Earlier versions of civ would require a specific building or tech to allow cities to grow above a given size. It's relatively simple (using the modified DLL) to apply a similar cap to the Chislev specifically.

Base - Size 6
Sanitation - Size 8
Sanitation + Medicine - Size 10
etc...

A Size 10 settlement would represent a very large tribe indeed.

 

[woodelf]

Yeah, they should be pop capped.