Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Vehem]

Slvynn already established non-integer happines right? So, why just don't give Chislev +1.5, 1.8 or 2 unhappy per population?

I don't think that's ever been coded, but it can be...

Still not unheard of for cities to have 20-30 happiness in the late game however (which is the part I'm working on balancing really) - which is still 13-20 max happy population per city with 1.5 per population.

2 Unhappy would be crippling in the early game.

 

[GhostQ]

I don't think that's ever been coded, but it can be...

Still not unheard of for cities to have 20-30 happiness in the late game however (which is the part I'm working on balancing really) - which is still 13-20 max happy population per city with 1.5 per population.

2 Unhappy would be crippling in the early game.

I'd like to add that even 1.5 unhappy per pop would be breaking the early game. As it is you can get like at most 6 happy faces at the start of the game; and 5 most of the time, that would put a 3 pop limit to a city right at the start which will easily ruin the game. And a 4 cap for 6 happy faces, which is ok'ish...

 

[Gelvan]

just some report from my game with the Ceulli
the main city was planned to get the City of Thousand Slums. But I had some bad luck and the Good Dannmos of Dural built it first. Well, anyway the city has actually 39 pop and produces 13 unhappy people. 300 beacon, 100 gold and some specialists and slaves seem to be quite happy in the swamp. I have public healers - and trade routes for nearly every ressource available. I can't sacrifice the 13 people because I've switched to Caste System because Basium (er..) my ally was eager to convince me that some super artists could do me a favor. Kayleen and Jonas have been conquered, because I really need more beacons, to establish a defensive way to victory, Elohim and Dural battle the Shaem so I'm the only Evil player left - ah wait theres the Illians who hate the Elohim and love me. This will cause some trouble I suppose. One of my Shadow Priests worships the order, another Kilmorph, which is quite interesting and gives me some blessing. (maybe it would be nice to add a new religion for the lizard god, er, Agares, although somehow I like this random appearence of other religions) - my plan is to make the Lichurp and Illians my permanent ally but I think that is somehow broken in BTS - the option never shows up. My mages and liches are traded to Basium so my alliance could get 16 lvl 3 mages soon enough. Maybe "Warlord" is not longer the correct difficulty level for me to play, but on the other hand, the Elohim/Dural Alliance is much stronger in science. any ideas how to win?

 

[Calbrenar]

Do you have Permanent Alliances enabled? As well as the tech researched? If not it won't show up.

 

[Slvynn]

make it different.

formula : City unhapiness per pop = 1 + (CityPop/100)*n
That mean for city size 20 each citizen will make 1.2 points of unhappy of pop, that mean 24 , while for city pop 4 will be 1.04 per one, that mean 4.16

n may be 1-2 ,(need to balance it properly), in case of 2 unhapiness of 20 city pop will be 28 and 4 size = 4.32 what is seems very ok. when having pop 10 it will be 14, so as you see this way is pretty balanced - when giving small cities to grow, mass pop cities will experience problem.

My suggestion is make n multipler = 1.5 - 2 thats all.

 

[Gelvan]

Do you have Permanent Alliances enabled? As well as the tech researched? If not it won't show up.

I did and I have the tech. could it be, that the AI don't has the tech, and therefore the option won't show up? or could it be that you can't have more than 1 ally? before Basium arrived, I had the option with the lichurp (although he did not like me), but never with illian (who likes me much more) - sorry for offtopic

edit: could it be, that Illian doesn't show the option, because I trade with Elohim and Lichurp who Aulric doesn't like?

 

[Vehem]

I did and I have the tech. could it be, that the AI don't has the tech, and therefore the option won't show up? or could it be that you can't have more than 1 ally? before Basium arrived, I had the option with the lichurp (although he did not like me), but never with illian (who likes me much more) - sorry for offtopic

edit: could it be, that Illian doesn't show the option, because I trade with Elohim and Lichurp who Aulric doesn't like?

If you don't make the alliance before Basium, you lose the chance. You can only normally have 1 permanent ally in BtS, though Basium automatically joins your alliance so you can have 3 provided you make the first before building the gate.

 

[Vehem]

Hmm. In competitive multiplayer games, that can actually alter the strengths of the starting locations of the players since the game will think it's improved their start when in fact it's made it worse, possibly both relatively and absolutely.
Would ancient forest not have the same problem in Vanilla? What did Kael do for that?

For some reason I had it in my head that Ancient Forests just added food, not production but of course it's actually both. I'd spoken to Kael about it before and he pointed me in the direction of the Normalize code as a cause. Having looked at that code again, I realized that it's actually picking the *first* terrain feature defined that is valid for a terrain type and adding that.

Moving the Deep Jungle to the bottom of the XML seems to mean it's hitting forest first and not spawning Deep Jungle on map creation. I'll have that included on the next update/patch.

 

[CMHistory]

Possible Bug: It appears, after reinstalling twice, that the FF modmod changes Shadows back to Non-Investigating status after it is installed over .31d. I had to go in and tweak them by hand to turn Investigate back on again. Can you confirm, Vehem?

Thanks for all your hard work!

(...though next hard work, if you are up to suggestions, would in seeing if you can integrate the Werewolf civ modmod in your grouping, so it's easier to use both...maybe? possibly?)

 

[Vehem]

Possible Bug: It appears, after reinstalling twice, that the FF modmod changes Shadows back to Non-Investigating status after it is installed over .31d. I had to go in and tweak them by hand to turn Investigate back on again. Can you confirm, Vehem?

Thanks - looks like the Shadow Priests can do all the spy actions (Investigate/Sabotage etc) but the other Shadows can't investigate. I'll sort that out for the next patch.

 

[BeefontheBone]

I'm going to preempt a bunch of people here and ask when we can expect a merge with FfH patch e

 

[smjjames]

I'm going to preempt a bunch of people here and ask when we can expect a merge with FfH patch e

I think you mean patch F because patch e was released earlier this morning, unless Kael wants to make a patch e.1 or something.

 

[Deon]

He meant patch E.
And I wonder too when it'd be possible to play this cool modmod patched.

 

[Vehem]

I'm going to preempt a bunch of people here and ask when we can expect a merge with FfH patch e

Roughly now...

Fall Further 022 for Fall from Heaven 031e

Changelog
0. Merged with 031e
1. Priests of Omorr now cast Floating Eye, Spirit Guide, Dispel Magic and "Purify" (new spell, combines the effects of Remove Disease and Sanctify, Priests of Omorr only).
2. Lizard units should all be set to "No religion" on creation (resolves Shield of Faith/other religion specific spells on Priests)
3. Lizard cities can no longer build temples of the normal religions.
4. Deep Jungle should not be created by the map script Normalize function at game start.


Download link in the first page as usual.

 

[xienwolf]

You know you just blocked your Lizzie Recon from getting all the fun CoE spells too then, right? Could be intentional though. But Mask is such a beautiful ability to lose

 

[Vehem]

You know you just blocked your Lizzie Recon from getting all the fun CoE spells too then, right? Could be intentional though. But Mask is such a beautiful ability to lose

I thought about it, but decided that it (a) doesn't really suit the Mazatl much (b) the Cualli have some powerful "stealth" units already and (c) on the whole it's unlikely that a Lizardman could conceal their identity very well (Hidden Nationality) - the tail gives it away...

 

[Grunthex]

For some reason I had it in my head that Ancient Forests just added food, not production but of course it's actually both. I'd spoken to Kael about it before and he pointed me in the direction of the Normalize code as a cause. Having looked at that code again, I realized that it's actually picking the *first* terrain feature defined that is valid for a terrain type and adding that.

Moving the Deep Jungle to the bottom of the XML seems to mean it's hitting forest first and not spawning Deep Jungle on map creation. I'll have that included on the next update/patch.

I was just flipping through the thread, and this caught my eye. Does all of this above possibly mean that the reason the mapgenerator tends to stick civs in those horrible (bad for the player, worse for the AI) all-forest starts is it thinks they can eventually be made into Ancient Forests?

And if so, that it can be 'fixed' by moving some things around in the XML? If so, what do I gotta do? And how much do you suppose I'd have to pay da boss to do the same?

 

[BeefontheBone]

Heh. That was fast Will it break savegames? First post seems to be linking to patch A as far as I can tell.

Just discovered that birthright regained lets the Archos get a replacement Mother (and build Shrine of the Champion, as long as you do it before re-casting the spell). Not sure whether or not it's a gameplay problem, but thematically it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. <shrug>

@Grunthex: No, it doesn't mean that. The normalisation does think forests are a bonus though, but no more than vanilla BtS. The problem is that they're tougher to vlear in FfH. I think that could be avoided by, say, removing the +1 hammers from forests and granting it via a tech instead though, if you don't mind delaying it a bit.

 

[Vehem]

I was just flipping through the thread, and this caught my eye. Does all of this above possibly mean that the reason the mapgenerator tends to stick civs in those horrible (bad for the player, worse for the AI) all-forest starts is it thinks they can eventually be made into Ancient Forests?

And if so, that it can be 'fixed' by moving some things around in the XML? If so, what do I gotta do? And how much do you suppose I'd have to pay da boss to do the same?

Not quite.

It puts the forests down because it see's that (a) they provide hammers and (b) they don't reduce the food produced (those are the two conditions it checks). As soon as it finds something that does that, it will place that feature.

If Forests occur first in the XML, it'll place those. It won't even know that Ancient Forests existed. If the Ancient forests were first in the XML, you'd get those instead. In the default file Jungle is placed before Forest and I'd added Deep Jungle directly after that.

As Jungle doesn't add a hammer and does reduce food production, it was ignored by the check, but the Deep Jungle passed both conditions so it was spawning them.

==

The only way to help prevent an all-forest start by this method would be to create a new feature that provided hammers. There are big balance issues to deal with here however, so you may prefer to use a Mapscript that prevents the forest starts (Cephalo's Creation prevents forest starts for any race other than the elves for instance).

==

Heh. That was fast Will it break savegames? First post seems to be linking to patch A as far as I can tell.

It most likely will break save games (I tend to make Save-breaking versions into a full version rather than a Patch these days) - mostly due to the addition of a spell. Might be worth checking that though, as I haven't tested the SpellInfos for their effect on savegames.

I'd forgotten to remove the "Patch A" link - thanks. The main download is actually at the top of that post (it just links to the CivFanatics download database page and I update the actual link from there). The changes that were in Patch A from the last version are all included in this one.

Just discovered that birthright regained lets the Archos get a replacement Mother (and build Shrine of the Champion, as long as you do it before re-casting the spell). Not sure whether or not it's a gameplay problem, but thematically it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. <shrug>

Read her 'pedia entry

Any excuse for a Monty Python reference...

(it was a known "exploit" before the first public release, but I chose to allow it to be used. The only restriction I placed on it was that you couldn't use the Birthright Regained version of the spell to create a 2nd Mother if the first was still alive. That would just have been too mean)

 

[Calbrenar]

Yup it broke my save ;/