Fall Further - The Original Thread

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Vehem said:
I like the feel of it. The one I'd found has a similar Eastern sound to it, but is definitely more of a "studio piece". It's also free for personal use and kinda fits the FfH sound I think.
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i like the feel of lack of clearance and undecision. Female vocals and violas bit corrupting picture thouhg. Yeah , fan of idea but not fan of those viola/hi string/whatever.
I also edited my initial post and added some more good stuff.
 
Any chance of tossing in the Werewolf Civ Mod, Vehem? I know I asked before, but since you are starting to diffuse focus, I thought it might be a better opportunity to make the request.

I haven't been able to integrate them, myself, and I'm too loyal to FallFurther to just switch over.....like so many people, I want it all! :)
 
CMHistory said:
Any chance of tossing in the Werewolf Civ Mod, Vehem? I know I asked before, but since you are starting to diffuse focus, I thought it might be a better opportunity to make the request.

I haven't been able to integrate them, myself, and I'm too loyal to FallFurther to just switch over.....like so many people, I want it all! :)
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It's not one that I'd considered, though I've just looked through the thread again and it does seem to be very well implemented. I'd have to take a proper look at it first and get some feedback from other people here as to whether they'd like to see it included.

Plus - I'd need to as Loocas as well...

===

The good news is, after about 3 hours of battering Broader Alignments with Winmerge and Textpad, it seems to have finally slotted into Fall Further. This will be a major area for testing on release though - as I'm sure with all the work GreyWolf did on it, something will have slipped by in the merging. I have checked the city-raze bug though and that's now fixed (or rather - bypassed), no more exploding monks and killing your population with Feast and changing to Ashen Veil both drop the alignment properly.

I also reworked the "meter" a little - it now runs Red-Yellow-Blue rather than Red-Blue-Yellow (personal preference, blue just seems more "good").
 

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Also makes it a bit mor eclear where the "transition" periods are IMO. I recall it being a shade hazy on first Implementation until I noticed the little lines marking the switch points.
 
I'm considering a few tweaks that would stray into the main mod (which I've avoided in the past, but might risk doing in the next version) - so if you have any opinions on the following - now's a good time to voice them...

  • Corlindale - Spirit Affinity:1, Cannot Attack - He currently has 0 strength as fits his Pacifist nature, but this causes issues for him when targetted by assassins and other marksmen. It would be rare to see him ever gain more than 3 or 4 strength, even if people wanted to stockpile Spirit Mana - but he would generally have the 1 strength needed to protect him thanks to the Palace Mana.

  • Homeland - CombatInBorders increase from 10 to 20, Prereq for Guardsman - Defender is generally considered to be a "weak trait" and looking at the leaders that possess it I can't really see it as being a macro-balancing factor (i.e. - it doesn't appear to be a deliberate weakness to offset some other strength of that civ). It also fits nicely that you effectively operate at "1 Combat Level Higher" when inside your own borders (Combat1 is effectively Combat2 etc).

  • Alazkan's Mirror - Can only be cast if you have not attacked this turn, Alazkan's moves set to 0 upon casting - This retains Alazkan's ability to "safely attack" (by sending his Mirror in instead) but removes the horror-combinations that allow him to effectively make 8 attacks per turn. Also - if he chooses to use the Mirror - he won't be gaining any combat experience himself this turn - making the decision a little trickier to make. I think it will still be a very potent ability however...

  • Basium and Hyborem - Start with 25 experience and an aggressive UNITAI (instead of CITY_DEFENSE for Hyborem - designed to protect him I suspect) - This is one I use on my own version anyway, and it does add a bit of a kick to Big-Red. I recently read a thread where Kael mentioned he's working on something similar "Kael: We are working at ramping up his aggresivness right now (and then making sure he is capable of being aggresive) "

  • Monks - Granted "Guardsman" Allows a player to protect Corlindale from assassins without exploiting game mechanics.

I don't want to just make changes because they "seem cool", but I think these ones would offer a genuine benefit to the gameplay.

Now I just need to know what *you* think...
 
xienwolf said:
Also makes it a bit mor eclear where the "transition" periods are IMO. I recall it being a shade hazy on first Implementation until I noticed the little lines marking the switch points.
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Must admit - I'd missed those myself - though I've transferred them over as well now and doubled the height of the lines - 2 pixels each instead of 1
 
Vehem said:
[*]Alazkan's Mirror - Can only be cast if you have not attacked this turn, Alazkan's moves set to 0 upon casting - This retains Alazkan's ability to "safely attack" (by sending his Mirror in instead) but removes the horror-combinations that allow him to effectively make 8 attacks per turn. Also - if he chooses to use the Mirror - he won't be gaining any combat experience himself this turn - making the decision a little trickier to make. I think it will still be a very potent ability however...
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most look good, but this is disaster for the AI at the moment. It just wouldn't know when to use mirror and when to attack himself (for facts, search the switch to allow arcane units to cast and attack in the same turn)
 
Well, just by incorporating my Worker Mod you have already changed the main mod :p

Corlindale is a nice touch, but I guess I just don't see where it makes a difference. Getting 1 :strength: on him just means that workers and Hawks will defend before he does, which most consider to be cheating anyway. I remember someone posted a fix so that Assassins won't target those units or equipment, but still target Corlindale, but it wasn't put into use :(

Channeling 1-3 means 75% reduction in effective strength for defense consideration. I haven't checked yet, but I imagine that Hero is probably another 25%. So assume they are non-additive and that nets you a multiplicative effect yielding a net 31% :strength: considered for defending. Thus even with 3 :strength: it would require a 1 :strength: unit to defend before him (or another unit with Channeling & Hero complications and a low :strength:).

But people say that with Heroic Strength he begins to be able to survive attacks, so I guess it must make a difference somewhere along the lines. Or they are using the Hawks/Workers for defense.

I just really think that Corlindale doesn't belong on the Battlefield. Sure he is effectively an Archmage, but that means that you use him for your Vitalize and other non-combat slots (whichever ones remain).


I like the Homeland & Alazkan changes. Both seem to be pretty nice all around.

For Basium/Hyborem, I'd add Promotions instead of XP. The AI doesn't always spend XP in the best of manner. And if possible I would tie the aggressiveness of Hyborem to his Immortal Promotion. Thus he will ramage a LOT until he dies the first time. Then he'll cool down and try to keep himself safe.

EDIT: @Demus: The AI would just attack using Alazkan and never cast the spell unless it finishes a move without attacking because no targets were in range. Then it would cast the spell and attempt to attack by Mirror. Which is in truth a fairly effective way to use him.
 
xienwolf said:
Well, just by incorporating my Worker Mod you have already changed the main mod :p

Corlindale is a nice touch, but I guess I just don't see where it makes a difference. Getting 1 :strength: on him just means that workers and Hawks will defend before he does, which most consider to be cheating anyway. I remember someone posted a fix so that Assassins won't target those units or equipment, but still target Corlindale, but it wasn't put into use :(

Channeling 1-3 means 75% reduction in effective strength for defense consideration. I haven't checked yet, but I imagine that Hero is probably another 25%. So assume they are non-additive and that nets you a multiplicative effect yielding a net 31% :strength: considered for defending. Thus even with 3 :strength: it would require a 1 :strength: unit to defend before him (or another unit with Channeling & Hero complications and a low :strength:).
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Hmm - good point. Possibly plan B then - granting "Guardsman" to Monks. I actually think I like this way better (like you said - hiding behind workers always seemed "iffy"). Monks could quite easily be considered to be selfless individuals who would sacrifice themselves to protect someone like Corlindale.

Edit: Just tried that out - and I really like it. Solves the single issue ("Corlindale getting assassinated") in a nice flavourful way and without exploiting the numbers/mechanics at all - edited it into the post above for further comments.
 
Xienwolf said:
For Basium/Hyborem, I'd add Promotions instead of XP. The AI doesn't always spend XP in the best of manner. And if possible I would tie the aggressiveness of Hyborem to his Immortal Promotion. Thus he will ramage a LOT until he dies the first time. Then he'll cool down and try to keep himself safe.
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Most of the time I've generally seen it spending it on Combat 4 and something else (Shock or similar - by the turn they get to spend the experience, they actually have 26 -> Level 6). Doesn't seem too bad a way to go...

Good idea about Hyborem's Immortal-hood, not sure how to do it yet but I'll have a think.

Edit: PyPerTurn - void setUnitAIType (int iUnitAIType) - should do it nicely.
 
Vehem said:
[*]Alazkan's Mirror - Can only be cast if you have not attacked this turn, Alazkan's moves set to 0 upon casting
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I think the other ideas are I'm-gonna-copy-that good, but I don't think that one goes far enough. OTOH:

1) It's unarguably a big help
2) I like the point about xp gain.
3) "pinning" Alazkan after casting makes him more vulnerable (no zipping close, casting, and withdrawing out of range of counterattack)
4) It strikes me as a more elegant solution than my own.

I suggest leaving Cor. his +1 Str, btw. It'll help him out when monks aren't around and - more likely - when he's with damaged units. In LAN games we've never had a problem with hawks and workers working as guardsmen - a gentleman's agreement prevents abuse - but it is annoying to have the archmage go down before... well, the sick and wounded. Even if that's what he'd want. :)

Edit #2: I think making the guard ability available via a buy-with-xps promotion would be nice for Homeland units.
 
Tarquelne said:
I suggest leaving Cor. his +1 Str, btw. It'll help him out when monks aren't around and - more likely - when he's with damaged units. In LAN games we've never had a problem with hawks and workers working as guardsmen - a gentleman's agreement prevents abuse - but it is annoying to have the archmage go down before... well, the sick and wounded. Even if that's what he'd want. :)
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Hmm - wouldn't keeping Strength 0 make sure that he's always the weakest unit, even more so than the "sick and wounded"? I haven't looked closely at the defender selection code, but I'd assume having 0 strength and 0% chance to win would guarantee last defender (and so first assassinated - if no Monks around)

As a result, any monks at all - no matter how badly wounded - would try to defend him. If an injured Monk were to have 0.2 Strength remaining and Corlindale had 1 Strength, wouldn't Corlindale try to save the Monk?
 
Vehem said:
Hmm - wouldn't keeping Strength 0 make sure that he's always the weakest unit, even more so than the "sick and wounded"?
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Yes... which is why I think you should keep the +1 Strength, for if/when Monks aren't around. So you won't _need_ monks (or hawks/workers) to defend him. Though I can see how that could be desirable.

If an injured Monk were to have 0.2 Strength remaining and Corlindale had 1 Strength, wouldn't Corlindale try to save the Monk?
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I think he would, story-wise. But we don't want him to, do we? That's what I meant at the end of the previous message.
 
Tarquelne said:
Yes... which is why I think you should keep the +1 Strength, for if/when Monks aren't around. So you won't _need_ monks (or hawks/workers) to defend him. Though I can see how that could be desirable.

I think he would, story-wise. But we don't want him to, do we? That's what I meant at the end of the previous message.
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I think I'm missing something here (probably just me being slow..)

The only time that Corlindale having 1 strength will prevent assassins from attacking him is when you use the Workers/Hawks method to protect him. That's something I'd like to avoid being a "viable tactic" as it feels a little exploitish to surround an archmage with workers who can protect him better than Champions.

It also means that Corlindale would sometimes try to defend (and most likely fail) if there was another unit in the stack who was injured to less than 1 Strength).

Having any strength at all would imply that he *would* fight, whereas from lore he wouldn't - he'd just surrender as a unit with 0 strength would. Basically he would depend on Guardsmen units to back him up.

==

Having Guardman available to Defender-trait civs is a nice idea though. It sorts out the Elohim/Corlindale issue nicely, and would provide a decent boost to the trait in general. The only concern would be that it is drawing uniqueness and benefit away from the Bannor Training Yards.

EDIT: Would granting Drill 1 to Bannor training yards offset that?
 
Vehem said:
I think I'm missing something here (probably just me being slow..)
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Shall we discuss whether you're slower than I'm unclear? :)

The only time that Corlindale having 1 strength will prevent assassins from attacking him is when you use the Workers/Hawks method to protect him. ...
It also means that Corlindale would sometimes try to defend ... if there was another unit in the stack who was injured...
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Right. We're together so far!

Having any strength at all would imply that he *would* fight, whereas from lore he wouldn't ... he would depend on Guardsmen units to back him up.
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Ah, Ok. My thought was that he'd rather surrender than have a .1 strength "sick and wounded" unit defend him, but - for gameplay - it'd still be better to have the assassin/marksman take the weaker units first. That may be where we depart. I'd like making it that much more difficult to pick him off, but certainly there's merit to having him go quietly when no Guard-unit is around.


The only concern would be that it is drawing uniqueness and benefit away from the Bannor Training Yards.

EDIT: Would granting Drill 1 to Bannor training yards offset that?
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Good point on uniqueness, and Drill 1 would help. But I think the new promotion would be worth it. Though I don't play the Bannor much and lack a feel for how important the Training Yard is for the civ's uniqueness.
 
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