Fall Further - The Original Thread

Hianthrogh and Kahd no longer have gender-identity issues.

Just out of curiosity, are you planning to have any leaders who are actually female, perhaps as secondary choices for your already-existing civs? It's not really necessary from a gameplay point of view, but a bit of variety might be nice for flavor. So far Fall Further is a bit of a sausage festival. ;)
 
Just out of curiosity, are you planning to have any leaders who are actually female, perhaps as secondary choices for your already-existing civs? It's not really necessary from a gameplay point of view, but a bit of variety might be nice for flavor. So far Fall Further is a bit of a sausage festival. ;)

Funnily enough I had a similar thought when I was looking for a Leaderhead pic for Kahd - found a few suitable female images, including one that kinda inspires a possible theme for a civ... Nothing decided yet mind you.
 
I believe Meditation Halls is a bit underpowered. They are a UB and yet all they award is 2 extra culture in the late (mid-late) game; and they require an additional tech. Maybe make them a bit cheaper or produce 5 beakers instead of the regular 4? Or make the Elder Council unique instead and make it give culture; that would help. Late game 2 culture doesn't really do much for a UB.
 
I believe Meditation Halls is a bit underpowered. They are a UB and yet all they award is 2 extra culture in the late (mid-late) game; and they require an additional tech. Maybe make them a bit cheaper or produce 5 beakers instead of the regular 4? Or make the Elder Council unique instead and make it give culture; that would help. Late game 2 culture doesn't really do much for a UB.

They also boost the number of Gate-creatures allowed and allow Djinni to enter through the gate. A suggestion has already been made to add a "happiness with bonus" to them however, to help counteract the lack of religion happiness - which seems fair.
 
I have a problem with Orthus axe, in Lanum city are 2 adepts, one with axe, and worker, I`m playing as Mazatl. When I killed first adept, axe was drop to the ground, so in city was only adept, worker and axe, I killed second adept, and when I captured the city I got the worker, but axe dissapeared. So I reloaded the game, done the same thing with another unit, but axe dissapeared second time. I reloaded and used domination spell and I finally got the adept with the axe. It is my first game with this kind of problem.
 
I have a problem with Orthus axe, in Lanum city are 2 adepts, one with axe, and worker, I`m playing as Mazatl. When I killed first adept, axe was drop to the ground, so in city was only adept, worker and axe, I killed second adept, and when I captured the city I got the worker, but axe dissapeared. So I reloaded the game, done the same thing with another unit, but axe dissapeared second time. I reloaded and used domination spell and I finally got the adept with the axe. It is my first game with this kind of problem.

Got a save of that one? Not sure how any of the changes would cause it, but I can take a look and try to work it out.
 
Well, so far I am having fun as the Kahdi... My main complaint is that I don't find Gnoslings and Thades (especially Gnoslings) particularly useful; is there something I'm missing with these units? The Planar Gate is worth the massive build cost for the Sheim because of the wide variety of very useful units you can get from it; it seems to me that the Vault Gate only ever spits out combat-useful units if you build ANOTHER 300 hammer building in the city (Speaking of which, why do Meditation Halls not allow a Sage?).

About Thades: They are very cool, and very thematic (the teleport ability rocks, although I wish they could attack). However, their chance of starting with spells is a little too low; about 1 in 3 Thades will have no spells at all. Perhaps the chance could be boosted to a 1-in-4 chance per sphere of having the spell? Even that still leaves a 10% chance of starting with no spells, but you'll at least get a useful spell or two on average.

About the Vault Gate in general: A little more variety than just the three/four creatures currently existing might be nice, both to spice things up and to make the Gates a bit more worth their 300 hammer build cost (Unless Gnoslings are REALLY a lot more useful than they seem to be...). Specifically, a couple combat-useable summons (other than the powerful but really expensive to build up to Djinn) would be excellent.

Still, overall the Kahdi are definately my favorite Fall Further civ. :) I was a little disappointed to find they are Agnostic (and I still think that's a little too crippling for them), but they are definately a very nice spin on the Amurites. The speed at which Adepts can become Followers is nearly terrifying, especially when comboed with Fireball or Maelstrom, and makes for a very nice combat mage strategy; I just wish there was more reason to build Vault Gates, as right now (especially if going Mammon path) I am sorely tempted to not bother with them at all.
 
i have to agree with Max Astro, the vault gate is kinda boring. thades are ok, but the novelty wears off (there are very few tier 1 spells i like) and gnostlings are only any good if you make all your mana nodes metamagic. i didnt see any other planar units come through, which made me sad. we need more units!
 
i have to agree with Max Astro, the vault gate is kinda boring. thades are ok, but the novelty wears off (there are very few tier 1 spells i like) and gnostlings are only any good if you make all your mana nodes metamagic. i didnt see any other planar units come through, which made me sad. we need more units!

The gnostlings definitely can be quite potent, but you have to choose to push them a little. I had 3 metamagic nodes and took the Oghma path - strength 7 Gnostlings (2 + Palace mana + Nodes + "Strong" from Oghma) spawning pretty quickly at no cost can be very nice indeed.

Thades could probably do with some Tier2 spells I'd agree and I'll look at their chances to gain spheres too.

==

Any ideas for other creatures? I'm not planning on adding lots of them, but if there's a good idea put forth I may be tempted to add one or two.

==

Also - Vault Gates/Planar Gates - is the hammer cost too high on one/both?
 
Ok i played alot and i like very much too. i actually plannar gate cost should remain..... though cap and frequency of unit spawning can be adjusted.

For Ogma path - Vault Gate is must, since cap increased greatly, frequency, strong promo and gnostlings ability to get xp fast. Same with thades. I think they should remain with lvl 1 spells, though they should be able to attack after teleport, and have str 5. Djinns freq and cap should be bit increased.

For Mammon - dont use them. Use 1 in your cap. That will be enough. since ur plannar units cap is low, so 1 is more than enough. You'll need it to summon Psions.

Also about Gnostings more - they are awesome recons. Much better than hunters and can be better than rangers. They have eye too fogbust and can get Control Animal promo very easy. In one of my games i got around 12 bears with 1 gnostling. Thiose can be used in cities and for some bear addition to your stack.

New units idea:
National Kahdi wonder - Pyramid of Elements.
Once built it grants random elemental (water, fire , earth, air) lvl 1 spell and gives slight chance to summon random Elemental (of 4 exsisting ones), that joins nation permanently.
Aviable at elementalism, some nice hammer cost.

Vault Angels - different sort of Junil angels, Vault angels of Oghma serve her and protect Vault. If Oghma path is chosen they come to help Kahd in his way to enlightment. 4 base + 1 holy + cast courage , regeneration, have acess to cr1 and cd1 promos, disciple , require acess to spirit mana to spawn randomly, divination being resereached.
 
Oh, well there is part of my problem - I didn't realize that Gnoslings had Metamagic affinity. That certainly helps them. Still, Thades should get spells more commonly, and be able to attack. Not sure about 5 strength, they are probably okay as-is.

As far as the cost of the Vault Gate, right now it is definately too expensive for what it provides you with. Considering the cost of the buildings required to actually get the units (especially the Meditation Hall; both the Meditation Hall and the Alchemy Lab are probably the ones that are overcosted. If the Meditation Hall doesn't get it's extra Sage back it's WAY overcosted) the Vault Gate needs a cost reduction. The Planar Gate is probably fine, just because it gets you a lot of very useful units.

As far as new units for the Vault Gate, here are some random ideas I've thrown together; no idea if they are balanced or anything 'cause I'm really tired right now ^^; That's also why the names suck. :p :

Monolith - A massive being of living stone, infused with ancient magics. Unitclassless, with high defense, Monoliths can't move normally but can rebase instantly to any town like Hawks. They can also cast Wall of Stone and Inspiration.
Notes: Seems like something that would be hugely useful for city defense, like a magical tar demon. Should probably be linked to a moderately high level building so you don't get too many of them.

Manawisp - An etherial creature of pure, sentient magic. Has 0 strength, is unitclassless, and has no innate abilities. However, it can explore rival territory and can use its Mind Siphon ability to learn all Adept and Mage level spells known by a unit on the same tile as it - friendly or neutral.
Notes: Would be balanced just linked to the Mage Guild. Both gives you an extra caster, and the ability to steal spells from your "friends". However, with no strength, you'll have to be careful to keep it alive.

Vault Guardian - Powerful beasts that guard the entrance to Ohgma's vault. Good strength and horseman-like movement make them excellent and defending your territory. However, they lose nearly all their strength outside your cultural borders, making them poor attackers.
Notes: An alternative to the Monolith (or maybe have both if you really want to emphasize defense for the Ohgma-Kahdi). It should have a promotion that gives it -100% strength and +100% cultural strength, so that it's attack power is vastly reduced outside your culture.

Anyway, just tossing out some random ideas.
 
Also report about played game :
Thats how my stack look. Other cities defended by 1 follower having earth, mind , air, casting stonewall and inspiration and some random 2nd unit.
Spoiler :

I know that i pretty rock now and world will be soon on kneels before me.
Spoiler :
those are settings:


Well, seems Kahdi pretty balanced and strong. Only thing they need some thade tweaking, more 1-2 units from gates by flavour and special requirements, and hapiness and sage back to Mediation Halls. (yeah, Sage spec should be back.)
 
Also report about played game :
Thats how my stack look. Other cities defended by 1 follower having earth, mind , air, casting stonewall and inspiration and some random 2nd unit. Killed already 3 civs, and owning caps of 2 of them. (Kiled Khazad, Archos and Sheaim. All that stack have death 2 and mobility + combat promos. Stoneskin on way to help with combat.
Spoiler :

I know that i pretty rock now and world will be soon on kneels before me.
Spoiler :
those are settings:



Well, seems Kahdi pretty balanced and strong. Only thing they need some thade tweaking, more 1-2 units from gates by flavour and special requirements, and hapiness and sage back to Mediation Halls. (yeah, Sage spec should be back.)
 
Thanks Vehem for a great update to Fall Further. The Khadi are exactly my style. :)

Only a minor design suggestion concerning the broader alignment bar. "Evil" is red and "good" yellow in FfH. Then why goes the bar from red over yellow to blue? Evil -> Good -> Khadi? Hehe.
 
Do you think the Kahdi and Lizards both have to be human, or just both in-game? If anyone else has a similar problem or any information about it - let me know. In the three player testing there was only 1 OoS across 3 games, including a game with a player using the Mazatl.

I've played four games since then using the Kahdi and different civs and not a singe OOS- when I got the OOS it was with the Mazatl and I've not had any since then- so it seems to be limited to Mazatl & Kahdi as the human players as you've suggested. What I can't figure out is what caused it in particular about those civs. We initially thought it may have been tied into completing production as two errors occured the turn the Kahdi player finished a building but several other times nothing had happened on a turn to cause an error.
 
In our mp game Meditation Halls construction queue add caused OSS.
 
I don't think the Khadi do very well as an AI. Just been playing a new game as the Cualli on Prince level. I started near the khadi and so on turn ~155 I invaded with a bunch of Assassins and Bronze swordsmen. They're capital was defended by a single warrior and a catapult :lol:
 
Thanks Vehem for a great update to Fall Further. The Khadi are exactly my style. :)

Only a minor design suggestion concerning the broader alignment bar. "Evil" is red and "good" yellow in FfH. Then why goes the bar from red over yellow to blue? Evil -> Good -> Khadi? Hehe.

In truth, Grey Fox originally had it as Red->Blue->Yellow but I changed it (purely aesthetic reasons - preferred the other way round). If you wanted to turn it around, the easiest way would be to grab a copy of his download and then put the AlignmentMeter DDS in the relevant place.

In our mp game Meditation Halls construction queue add caused OSS.

Seems really weird as there's nothing special about the building from a synchronization point of view, but will take a look at it and see if I can reproduce it.

I don't think the Khadi do very well as an AI. Just been playing a new game as the Cualli on Prince level. I started near the khadi and so on turn ~155 I invaded with a bunch of Assassins and Bronze swordsmen. They're capital was defended by a single warrior and a catapult :lol:

Aye - they've got a touch of "Amurite syndrome" in that respect. I could force some tech choices to make them easier for the AI to deal with, but I'd rather avoid doing that. They'll get better as the spellcasting AI improves and according to the change logs for 032, Kael has started looking in the direction of the AI already.
 
Just been flicking through the changelog for 0.32 and saw that the Tower of Eyes provides a dungeon in every city.... dang- I love that wonder and now the good civs will have to think twice about building it due to the slight alignment impact- if you had a reasonably sized civ then this wonder could have more impact that Prophecy of Ragnarok to aligninment.
 
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