Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Mailbox]

I love the new install method, Vehem.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Are you still in maintenance mode, or getting back to development? My merge of xienwolf's modcomp, UnitStats, FFHBUG, and what I want from Fall Further (mostly Broader Alignements) isn't going very well. It was working when I was just using xienwolf's xml schema files (although it still crashed fairly often) with the merged DLL, but after trying to incorperate the Broader Alignments schema changes too it won't load.

I'm still hoping I can get you to include all these mods soon, so I can borrow your DLL and schema files. UnitStats and FFHBUG are nice to have too, but having both xienwolf's xml modcomp and Broader Alignment SDK/schema changes is essential for much of what my modmod has planned. It would significantly enhance Fall Further to include the latest versions of these modmods too, imho.

I hope the new installation method won't make my job too much harder...

 

[Vehem]

Are you still in maintenance mode, or getting back to development?

Slowly getting back - doing a bit here and there. Decorating is done - computer room is mostly set up, just need to connect it and move the computers up to the house. Bedrooms + Kitchen are flat-pack-furniture central at the moment (the bed has taken 2 hours already and it's not near built yet).

 

[xienwolf]

It's summer. Your wife will have you working in the yard 18 hours a day as soon as you get settled inside the house

 

[Daijin]

New Install method seems to work, played to turn 225 no issues outstanding that i noticed.

 

[Slvynn]

Vehem, alot of people asking about manual.
Any way/tip i can extract all flags and icons? (not similar with it)

 

[Mukuu]

Well, to start off, the installer works fine on Vista... but here is where I get throughly confused.

I have a foreign computer, Chinese to be exact, Chinese windows Vista. I have accepted the fact the my Civilization games will be forever cursed with having about 10% of everythings name as TXT_KEY_...

EVERYTHING in FfH is in TXT_KEY... which I have also learned to live with. The hardest part is knowing what your doing for events, since you actually cant understand it... there is no Armageddon counter, and diplomatic relations are strange. But you get used to it and play through it.

I have actually never tried FF, but decided to give it a shot, the spider race sounds like a ton of fun. So, I went here, read a little bit, decided to test your installer, got into the game.

NONE of the FF additions (races, events, units, ect...) are in TXT_KEY... They actually have their real names! It definitely made my day... but this got me thinking. There MUST be a way to fix this problem.

Since XML is a little beyond my skill level (don't start talking about specialization again, please) I am wondering what you guys think about this. Im very willing to walk through and manually change things if it will fix the problem.

 

[Vehem]

NONE of the FF additions (races, events, units, ect...) are in TXT_KEY... They actually have their real names! It definitely made my day... but this got me thinking. There MUST be a way to fix this problem.

Interesting - not sure what the difference would be as so far as I know I used the same method Kael did for the GameText.

I haven't worked much with the language localization side of Civ - but on the Options menu (Main Menu > Advanced > Options, not the in-game one), do you have a box at the bottom allowing you to select languages? If English is an option, you should be able to force it to use all of FFH's English text keys (which should fix the problem).

Worth a shot it any case.

Vehem, alot of people asking about manual.
Any way/tip i can extract all flags and icons? (not similar with it)

The actual flags are black/white alpha images, which the game colours in using teamcolors - so they're probably not much use to you. Instead I've saved the "flag buttons" (the one you see in the 'pedia entry) as JPGs and attached them - hopefully that will do the trick.

 

[Slvynn]

i need ur help though to organize text info, i can make nice pdf, but i , for instance, dont know thing about dural. When i can do nice Kahdi or Archos manual , cant do Dural because i dont know mechanics and never played as them.

I will start with kahdi, since archos should be adjusted afaik

 

[Vehem]

Just reworked some of the Haruspex abilities.

Call Spiders
Haruspex
1 turn delay
Creates a baby spider (permanent)
No limit on number of summons
Summoned unit receives "Empower" benefits based on caster Combat level

Venomous Web
Haruspex
Chance to immobilize enemy units
Small amount of poison damage, low damage limit (Average 10%, Cannot reduce target unit below 80% health)

Feral Rage
Haruspex
Grants "Feral" to all animal units in the stack
(+1 Movement, +20% Attack Combat Strength, -20% Defense Combat Strength, 5% chance per turn to turn wild (Barb), 5% chance per turn to wear off)

==

Whilst the baby spiders are relatively weak (Strength 3) for the tech level, they can also be Empower 5 (Strength 4.5) and Feral (Strength 5.1) when they actually enter combat. Empower will also stay with them if they manage to grow into full spiders. Haruspex called spiders have the potential to become the strongest spiders you can field.

 

[Slvynn]

Just reworked some of the Haruspex abilities.

Call Spiders
Chaos3, Haruspex
1 turn delay
Creates a baby spider (permanent)
No limit on number of summons
Summoned unit receives "Empower" benefits based on caster Combat level
Replaces "Summon Pit Beast"

Web
Chaos3, Haruspex
Chance to immobilize enemy units
Replaces "Summon Pit Beast"

Feral Rage
Haruspex
Grants "Feral" to all animal units in the stack
(+1 Movement, +20% Attack Combat Strength, -20% Defense Combat Strength, 5% chance per turn to turn wild (Barb), 5% chance per turn to wear off)

all changes are much weaker than pit beast + divine 3
harus need much bigger buff... also web - huh. entangle ...... 2 same types spells - useless... i like web idea..... but all stuff need buff
harus need more buff, really. The give them back divine religious spells, allowing to symbioze and use power of religion harus "follow" (they use advantages, while being followers of Mother, rly)

 

[Vehem]

all changes are much weaker than pit beast + divine 3
harus need much bigger buff... also web - huh. entangle ...... 2 same types spells - useless... i like web idea..... but all stuff need buff
harus need more buff, really. The give them back divine religious spells, allowing to symbioze and use power of religion harus "follow" (they use advantages, while being followers of Mother, rly)

Entangle is a Druid only spell, not a Nature spell these days - Haruspex didn't get it as of the spell changes, hence adding "Web" (web also lasts longer).

The divine religious spells can still be employed by normal priests of those religions (which the Archos can still create). It is those units that actually wield the power of the religion - the Haruspex allow them to do so as it furthers their goals, but they themselves are dedicated only to Mother. Short version is they shouldn't have had that ability in the first place and won't be getting it back - religious spells belong to religious units.

As it stands, they're going to be an excellent "back line" unit, able to summon other permanent units in large numbers, immobilize enemy attacking stacks until a defense can be arranged and buffing spiders in general. The "back line" nature also fits well with their primary duty of defending Mother.

 

[Slvynn]

Entangle is a Druid only spell, not a Nature spell these days - Haruspex didn't get it as of the spell changes, hence adding "Web" (web also lasts longer).

The divine religious spells can still be employed by normal priests of those religions (which the Archos can still create). It is those units that actually wield the power of the religion - the Haruspex allow them to do so as it furthers their goals, but they themselves are dedicated only to Mother. Short version is they shouldn't have had that ability in the first place and won't be getting it back - religious spells belong to religious units.

As it stands, they're going to be an excellent "back line" unit, able to summon other permanent units in large numbers, immobilize enemy attacking stacks until a defense can be arranged and buffing spiders in general. The "back line" nature also fits well with their primary duty of defending Mother.

no more empy haruspex *sigh*
Also started work on Ilmu Aris, Spi/Ing, Haruspex female old witch
Improved Kahd alittle, will send pic at evening, when get to home


also ... i'd like to have alpha-channel civ logos. Where i can find em or just can u supply me b/w / alphas?


also... with such tech Archos doubtely raise those Priests... but u said u will rebalance them in 040 which seems fine .. atm they need buff as civ. (tech outcome, because spidercult haruspex ruled are not so stupid guys, i think) (pillaging abilities for moar unit - loyal clever spiders killing villagers (village pillage))

May be add to Feral pillaging ability. Making all those babies neat pillagers

 

[Ecofarm]

1) Archos' hunters cannot carry bird and neither can rangers. It really sucks to have nothing that can carry birds (can their druids?). I've played them ~40 hours and, even with the changes above, I prefer Empy and teching Law for Chalid (1700) instead of commune (3600) for druids.

2) It would also be nice to have birds that could rebase regardless of open borders. HN + Invis Bird? I mean for all civs.

3) I delete baby spiders. They move one and are weaklings. After about turn 20, they are just maitenance cost. All spiders should have a 2 movement base. With new druid spell, they could keep up with other 3 movers (recluse, mother, baron...). Spiders are fast. If I wanted a 3str 1 move or a 5str 1 move, I would build warrior and axes, respectively. Sure, huge hordes formed by 15 city huge map extremes I bet free warriors and axes are great, when stacks of 50 collide. For games on standard map, quick speed (spawn rate?) and small army fights, well... and usually giant ones too. And they cannot pillage

4) The -35% science is too terrible.

5) Palace mana sucks.
A) Chaos 1 is lame
B) Arcane units move 1 base and are a pain to be with army anyway (so no use for nature 1)
C) Nature 2 is not of much use (+1 str to defensive recluses, big deal)
D) Chaos 2, spare me
E) ?
F) No Profit

I understand lore reasons, how about improving chaos 1 and 2 for the modmod?



.02

 

[Vehem]

also... with such tech Archos doubtely raise those Priests... but u said u will rebalance them in 040 which seems fine .. atm they need buff as civ. (tech outcome, because spidercult haruspex ruled are not so stupid guys, i think)

Would you say the Doviello have the same problem? The tech rate is largely identical to theirs under Charadon, (Barbarian Trait for -10%, no library for the perceived -25%).

What settings are you playing on Slyvnn? Quick/Advanced start as with Ecofarm? If so, I may need to look at that side of it rather than changing them on the whole - some of their abilities don't scale well with game-speed. I do play them a lot on Normal Speed/Normal Start and I've never felt they were weak - likewise the AI is very strong when using them in my experience.

Quoting Chalid as a reason for buffing isn't really a good argument for anything other than nerfing Chalid though. He's generally considered to be *the* hero to get if you don't have other plans for religion. Relatively cheap to acquire and very potent both early and late in the game. I'm more inclined to balance against everything in the game than try to outdo or match the latest power-tactic with each of my civs.

===

I'll still be looking for anything that can be tweaked or improved, but that's not to say the Archos will suddenly become the new uber-civ. The tweaks will probably be quite small (Haruspex were larger changes as their spell-list was mixed around with the spell changes). They're a low tech civ with some unique units in a couple of different branches. Their gameplay should rarely be about rushing Haruspex or religious heroes - but as the AI uses them, hordes of Recon or Melee units (generally Rangers for the AI, and fairly quickly too) to conquer enough of an empire to keep pace with the more distant high-teching civs.

Regarding the Haruspex and Baby Spiders - I'd fully agree that you should be using Axemen or Huntsmen for general armies. I can also think of occasions where being able to summon 4 Strength 5-ish units every 2 turns at no cost to your city production will be quite useful too. Not a "do this and you'll win" spell, just one that has a use from time to time.

===

The multiplayer feedback is useful - but I feel some of it is a little "power-gamery" - searching for the best combination of traits, techs and tactics possible to win at all costs. I play a lot of multiplayer myself, but it tends to be more casual. We get games where I'll adopt Ashen Veil or become Hyborem purely because one of the human opponents has adopted the Order. It's not always a wise move, but it's definitely fun. Even in those games however the human opponents have learned to build a heavy defense in the early game if they find themselves near the Archos, especially if I'm controlling them

 

[GhostQ]

A few words from me on the Archos as well. From my point of view everyone got some stuff right . By the way, I don't like categorizing Barbarian-leader-having races at -%35 science, because not all of your cities come with Libraries; best to say about %15'ish.

Ecofarm has valid points; Baby Spiders being the strongest. They are indeed quite weak and need to be deleted as they make you pay upkeep after some point. One can maybe gather a stack and get one to get a few promos, but that's generally about it. Maybe make them move 2 points for Archos, or able to pillage; eventhough the latter doesn't really fit the role-play part well.

Another valid point would be that Archos' traits are the worst among all races-leaders. They could get another sub-par trait like Ingenuity perhaps, don't know if it would fit the lore though. Other sub-par ones prolly won't fit the lore at all.

I agree with Vehem on the power-gaming part. Archos just needs to be buffed a bit, not too much. As for my own opinions on Archos: Sadly they are the weakest among the 6 FF races and I'd say they are quite below average compared to FfH races as well. I've tried them a few times to no good end, I got bored because the spiders were never able to make a real difference in my games. Haruspex', on the other hand, are quite nice even without the religious spell abuse. Even better if you can grab Yvain as well.

Would you say the Doviello have the same problem? The tech rate is largely identical to theirs under Charadon, (Barbarian Trait for -10%, no library for the perceived -25%).

Vehem, for this I'd say both Barbarian races in FfH have very powerful features to make up for the science penalty. The Doviello start the game with an Axemen, that guy can kill 2 civs if you are playing Pangaea/Continents/Fractal. The Clan has the most powerful building in the game; the Warrens even clones Settlers/Workers, which, IMHO, is imbalanced at the moment. I'm not saying Doviello and Clan are balanced, the Axemen is not too balanced either, but Barbarian races get huge bonuses to make up for the lack of research. (Hyborem has the Barbarian trait as well, but can't really go into detail about him, would take too long )

 

[Vehem]

By the way, I don't like categorizing Barbarian-leader-having races at -%35 science, because not all of your cities come with Libraries; best to say about %15'ish.

Agreed - it's actually wrong anyway (see here) - not that it changes the point they're making though, just the numbers are slightly off.

Another valid point would be that Archos' traits are the worst among all races-leaders. They could get another sub-par trait like Ingenuity perhaps, don't know if it would fit the lore though. Other sub-par ones prolly won't fit the lore at all.

That one I'll have to concede. "Defensive" was originally due to the theory that they were "defending the nest", but their actual play-style has ended up with them being more aggressive anyway. I may have to devise a new trait altogether for Daracaat - probably something animal/spider-boosting. "Wild" sounds like a good name...

==

The other option I'm considering is making them more capital-centric. It already houses the nest which provides a few benefits and allows for greater growth, but having that city able to produce more commerce than the other Archos cities may go some way toward helping them with teching.

 

[Niveras]

I'm curious if it would be possible to rework the agnostic trait slightly so that races with that can still research the techs, but simply not be able to choose religions. I am thinking most particularly in the cases of Undercouncil and Overcouncil, which are tied to religious civics that agnostics can't get, and so they can't adopt those civics. Even though the civs are agnostic, I think all of them would have interests along the lines of the councils.

 

[Tarquelne]

How about the ability to create a bunch of spiders at once?

Following the maxim that you should try to be like Wal-Mart to be successful, a swarm spell would be a Just-In-Time inventory system. Rather than summon a BS 1/2 turns, take many turns to summon a bunch at once.

That's not going to be more useful than the same number of spiders gained over many turns. It'd still have some uses and you wouldn't pay maintenance costs until the whole swarm is there to be used.

And, best of all, it'd be creepy.

If you want the spell balanced with other level 1 spells I think 1 spd 2/turns with no limit is fine. At that stage in the game, though, you could certainly justify something more powerful. If nothing else a "swarm" version would be a little less micro-management.

Even though the civs are agnostic, I think all of them would have interests along the lines of the councils.

I agree. Someone made the suggestion that the "Way of the..." techs allow entry to the Councils - I think it's a good one. (The first post here has a module that moves Council entry to the "Way of the" techs.)

But are there enough Agnostic civs in modmods now to allow the formation of their own Council?

 

[Vehem]

How about the ability to create a bunch of spiders at once?

The original version was actually summoning 3 spiders, but I toned it back after realizing they were getting the Empower promotions. Might be worth looking at 2... One thing I've been considering is making Haruspex UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT so that they can get Spell Extension too (Mobile Spiders), though UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE is probably better thematically. I'm looking at the consequences of allowing all Disciples to get extension, or possible just faking it with a Haruspex-only version of Spell Extension (should look indistinguishable from the original if I do it right).

I agree. Someone made the suggestion that the "Way of the..." techs allow entry to the Councils - I think it's a good one. (The first post here has a module that moves Council entry to the "Way of the" techs.)

Makes complete sense, though I'd be tempted to find a way to enforce that Empyrean/Esus had been founded already before anyone could join the councils.