Fall of Rome and its relevance

Voidwalkin

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It came up recently in a different thread.

There are many reasons Rome fell, which do you think were most influential, and does it have any relevance to the modern day?

1. It's not fashionable, but I think the barbarian invasion theory is pretty explanatory. Political events in Central Asia spread into Europe, and it did not mix well with the Roman strategic doctrine.

They'd settled into fixed positions according to their estimations of the manpower of nearby tribes. They did not and probably could not have prepared for a migration of quite that scale: later migrations of steppe tribes to Europe were not as destabilizing, with whole tribes, usually extensively militarized, mobilizing en masse. Once in a thousand year happening.

When those fixed positions were overwhelmed, they were able to cut deals, for a time, but never managed to muster the financing to really make a solid effort of reconquest until the reign of Justinian, by which time, the solidification of Germanic Kingdoms in the West made the scale of the task far too challenging. I suppose it could be argued they tried? Gaiseric just plain won.

2. I don't think Rome has much relevance in the modern day. As a Republic, it was to me a league of cities with a clear hegemon. As an empire, it was Eastern style despotism, and neither is currently practiced in the modern day, where the nation state and mass communication have enabled factionalism, nationalism and solidification of identities not really seen or even possible in classical or late Antiquity.
 
I think you have to prove that Rome truly "fell", as a starting point. It definitely transformed, but that's a different thing now isn't it.

I'm not sure that people living in most of Italy, or Constantinople for that matter, in 476 would've necessarily understood that Odoacer deposing some kid in Ravenna marked a particular decisive break or collapse.

We're talking about a long term process of political decentralisation over several centuries, in one part of a previously larger polity. Meanwhile the other part took a very different path and remained a centralised state. It's not necessarily something that needs to be explained as a single "fall" or used to derive lessons.
 
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(My take: Rome fell when the Greek Republic convinced Greeks to call themselves Hellenes instead of Romans, so the culprit is national identities)
 
If I had to pick one reason, it would be the lack of a stable government. If anything, it's a miracle that Rome lasted as an at-least-fairly-often-unified polity as long as it did, until 395. I don't find it difficult to imagine an alternative where one of the many cases of civil war resulted in the empire permanently splintering, and in some cases parts of it were splintered for years at a time.

I think Roman history as a whole has value to the present day. There is always a danger in history of over-generalizing specific cases. What did we learn from the Munich agreement of 1938? Not necessarily to never appease dictators, although that might sometimes be the right choice, but to never appease that particular dictator. There's a similar danger with Roman history - parallels can be drawn, whether it's based on form of government, the rise of strongmen, declines in civic virtue, class inequalities, increases in immigration, or changes in climate, and rules established, where the particulars of the circumstances often differ significantly. But at the same time, one of the benefits of having spoken and written language is that we can learn from the past, and make more informed decisions based on what worked or didn't work in as close of situations as we can find from the past. It's easy to find the wrong parallel, but IMO it's often better to make an imperfect attempt than to make no attempt at all.

As for the fall of the Western Roman Empire in particular? I think its applicability to the present day is rather limited. As far as we are aware, there are no sizeable empires at imminent risk of collapse due to the commonly-cited reasons that Rome fell, although if you lived in Rome in 460 AD, you might have thought things would be okay in your lifetime as well. We did very recently have the now-former ruler of the former Roman province of Syria deposed, and if you were a strongman now less sure of your position as a result, perhaps you'd want to brush up on your history. But I doubt 476 would be your go-to reference point in that case either, there are many better-suited examples of what not to do as a dictator than the traditional final fall.

I find the fall of the Roman Republic much more interesting. The gradual decline in its institutions, not least the representative ones (however exclusive the franchise may have been), and emergence of stronger and stronger individuals from the time of Marius onwards, raises parallels to quite a few countries today, who are at various stages along a similar path. The inability to resolve class inequality is another area that has echoes today, although I'd argue the late 1800s are a more relevant and recent example in that case. Similarly, the perceived decline of civic virtue among the Romans is something that is fretted about today as well. Did the Romans go soft over time as many believed they had? Have we gone soft today? Is there any way to avoid that? Is it even a bad thing?
 
Old age.
 
I'm not sure that people living in most of Italy, or Constantinople for that matter, in 476 would've necessarily understood that Odoacer deposing some kid in Ravenna marked a particular decisive break or collapse.

We're talking about a long term process of political decentralisation over several centuries, in one part of a previously larger polity. Meanwhile the other part took a very different path and remained a centralised state. It's not necessarily something that needs to be explained as a single "fall" or used to derive lessons.
Eh, I dunno. I think the collapse of the Mediterraean trade lanes once secured by Mare Nostrum would have been felt rather profoundly by the people there, moreso than the final deposition. The average man on the street would have been economically impacted pretty profoundly by that loss of grain flow from the south to the north.

The writing had been on the wall for decades, and it probably confirmed to a public that'd long known of the decline of their state that renewal of it was increasingly unlikely. The few that were left, anyway, they were likely already living amongst a ratio of 2/1 vacancies to occupation.
 
Did the Romans go soft over time as many believed they had? Have we gone soft today? Is there any way to avoid that? Is it even a bad thing?
I think by the late empire, they'd lost the ability to mobilize vast quantities of men in times of national crisis, and, yeah, the will to struggle, on some level, by the elite and even yes, the masses.

It's hard to imagine Attilla, a less talented general, would have outwitted Fabius strategically, tactically, or have stressed the Republican elite who sent Hannibal's brother's head to him in a box, while he threatened Rome itself, famously refusing to negotiate. They'd have instituted a mass mobilization of men and material, but it doesn't seem that was culturally thought possible by Attilla's time.

Gibbon's argument is not really thought of well today, but I dunno if he's so far off. If a culture goes from worshipping the likes of Mars the Avenger to Christian theology, you would expect to see cultural changes after 150, 200 years, particularly if they're part of a history of professionalized militaries providing security successfully.

If they actially had the cultural ability to do that, though, it's safe to assume it wouldn't have collapsed as it did. The mass was too unequal for even the combined weight of Rome's foes to have stood against it for much length of time.
If I had to pick one reason, it would be the lack of a stable government. If anything, it's a miracle that Rome lasted as an at-least-fairly-often-unified polity as long as it did, until 395. I don't find it difficult to imagine an alternative where one of the many cases of civil war resulted in the empire permanently splintering, and in some cases parts of it were splintered for years at a time.
Kinda disagree here, too. Its power base was sufficient to recapture territory if the core forces of its mediterranean food surplus' remained economic.

If not for that one big stress test, it's fathomable to me that it lasted in one form or another, consolidating into a more maritime version of a state that'd be the Western equivalent of China. Its frontier had been breached multiple times, none seriously threatening its long term position prior to that.

I think it can be viewed as a pretty exceptional event because it included political powers that did not draw their legitimacy from Rome, and the circumstances that led to the possibility they could meaningfully breach and threaten were really quite unlikely, a combination of both steppe dynamics mixed with unusually strong and capable personalities(Gaiseric and Attilla were contemporaries!).

If those circumstances are not present, whatever general would rise to power would still draw legitimacy from Rome, preserving the idea of the Empire in popularity, which provokes a striving to restore it. The permanent loss was the eclipse and replacement of that identity by a political elite of newcomers with their own wellsprings, which was just exceptional.
 
It came up recently in a different thread.

There are many reasons Rome fell, which do you think were most influential, and does it have any relevance to the modern day?

1. It's not fashionable, but I think the barbarian invasion theory is pretty explanatory. Political events in Central Asia spread into Europe, and it did not mix well with the Roman strategic doctrine.

They'd settled into fixed positions according to their estimations of the manpower of nearby tribes. They did not and probably could not have prepared for a migration of quite that scale: later migrations of steppe tribes to Europe were not as destabilizing, with whole tribes, usually extensively militarized, mobilizing en masse. Once in a thousand year happening.

When those fixed positions were overwhelmed, they were able to cut deals, for a time, but never managed to muster the financing to really make a solid effort of reconquest until the reign of Justinian, by which time, the solidification of Germanic Kingdoms in the West made the scale of the task far too challenging. I suppose it could be argued they tried? Gaiseric just plain won.
I'm not really sure how to begin explaining how wrong this is.

The "barbarians" were not a bunch of ignorant yokels squatting in mud huts and bogs. They were players in the politics of the late Roman Empire, having spent most of their life in the Roman Empire moving in its high circles. Heck, the "arch-barbarian" Gaiseric was betrothed to the daughter of the Emperor Valentinian III. The Roman Empire may have been in a poor state, but Imperial princesses weren't married off to illiterates wearing animal pelts!
Even the Huns had spent several decades in and out of Roman service, with Attila earlier providing troops to Flavius Aetius in his fight against the Romano-Gothic aristocracy in southern Gaul. The often derided claim that Attila invaded the Empire in the 450s to press his claim for the hand in marriage of a daughter of Valentinian may not be far off. It would hardly be the first time a "barbarian" was brought into Roman politics as a military force for one aristocratic faction or another.

The short version is that successive civil wars ripped the Empire apart and frittered its resources away to the point that provincial aristocrats in Gaul, Spain, and possibly North Africa no longer felt a need to control Italy for its resources. For the longest time 'kingdoms were for losers'. "Barbarian" groups operating inside the empire, whether on their own or at the behest of one faction or another, wanted to become part of the Imperial structure. The Roman Empire was the greatest wealth concentration system Europe and the Near East had yet seen. (There was also no such thing as "entire tribes mobilizing en masse" like a particularly well armed but confused tour group on a package holiday!)
The increasing influence of non-Roman identities as a source of legitimacy further reduced the allure of needing to control Italy to be recognized as "properly Roman". Add into that the extinction of the Theodosian dynasty and there being no consensus for what made a true Emperor, and you have a recipe for an Imperial breakup. The "barbarians" did not destroy the Roman Empire; but their increased influence due to being brought into the Roman political system meant we did not see a reformed Roman Empire after the 450s. In 450 the Empire was in a bad way, but not "on the verge of collapse".
Indeed, Clovis, Odoacer, and Theoderic all existed in the Roman political system. Odoacer ostensibly ruled in the name of the Emperor, same with Theoderic and his successors. Both Theoderic and Clovis flirted with declaring themselves augustus but for various reasons did not. It is worth remembering that when Justinian ordered the invasion of Vandal North Africa, the Roman fleet stopped in Gothic-controlled Sicily to resupply and reorganize.

I highly recommend if you are interested in this area to read up on it. I recommend Guy Halsall's work Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West or Peter Heather's earlier work in The Goths. (In his later years Heather got a bit silly, blatantly disregarding his own very well regarded work to appeal to the popular narrative.)
Halsall also runs a pretty good blog on late antiquity and the early middle ages:

Skipping over some of the stuff on genetic analysis, this is a pretty good recap of Halsall's thesis:

In the time that remains, I want to talk briefly about what – if it were to constitute that sort of research – my revision of the Barbarian Migrations book needs to address. Again, this is not to deny that there were barbarian migrations or that they were an important feature of the period, but an attempt to recast the ‘Fifth-Century Crisis’ that includes the fragmentation of the western Empire and the movement of barbarian groups. It’ll be a list of things we can discuss.

The first is to develop the idea that I proposed in an article that Martial [Staub] invited me to write for German History, and which was clearly too complex for one Spanish professor, who tweeted that it was ‘the most ridiculous presentism’. Once again, to some people, any attempt to rethink the mechanisms of migration and the nature of the frontier that moves away from the gnashing-teeth, ‘waves of savages’ view is simple ‘presentism’: political correctness gone mad. We need seriously to rethink the relationships between the Empire and northern Barbaricum, not as two opposed worlds but (as indeed some Romans also considered it) as a core and a periphery. The late imperial Barbaricum was soaked in Roman influences and relied heavily upon a set of well-managed relationships with the Empire for its political and social stability. If you want to think responsibly about migration you need to think critically about dominant cores and politically, economically subordinate peripheries. One of the most important aspects of that relationship was the frontier itself. It is vital to think how the frontier was not simply a barrier, straining to hold back a tide of barbarians (even if the author of the De Rebus Bellicis and other Romans often conceived of it as such) but was also a managed relationship and a key mechanism for migration. To think further about that we need to consider the movements not simply from Barbaricum into the imperial provinces but those in the opposite direction as well: above all, barbarians going home, but also traders. We need to look at the exchange systems that ran from the Empire to the north, the movements of goods in those directions. These are all well studied: they aren’t new areas by any means, but we need to integrate them into how we see information flows as well as population movements, into an overall understanding of how migration operated. And we need to think of how political and cultural groupings moved up and down the great routes between the Baltic and the imperial limes.(12)

This has two important implications. One is that, contrary to the idea that the barbarians had acquired so much wealth from the Empire that they were by c.400 richer, more powerful, and more independent, the opposite is the truth. The collapse of those well-managed relationships around 400 caused, as such things had caused earlier, crises beyond the frontier. As had also happened throughout imperial history, those crises created winners and losers and the losers headed for Rome: drawn as well as pushed; not simply shunted along.

But the really surprising thing about the fifth century, as I began to explore in that article, is the fact that the eventual collapse of the frontier, so far from opening the floodgates to mass migration sweeping over the provinces, actually more or less killed off large-scale, long-distance population movement. After the ‘Great Invasion’ of 406, and the Burgundian crossing of the Rhine a few years later, there are really no more great barbarian invasions in the west from barbaricum, until the Lombards. What we have instead is the sort of slow, gradual drift across the frontier, over the Rhine, across the North Sea. What sort of scale this operated on at any one time is difficult to establish but it was very clearly a quite different phenomenon from many of the types of migration that had dominated the Imperial period. As I said in the article mentioned, the dictum I came up with in the 2007 book, that the End of the Roman Empire caused the Barbarian Migrations and not vice versa, is, as I now see it, quite wrong. The End of the Roman Empire was effectively also the end of the barbarian migrations. Remember, the Lombards migrated into a reconquered Italy across a re-established imperial frontier, and the Ostrogoths came from the Eastern Empire. Bizarrely, the Franks seem to have inherited the Roman attitude to the Rhine as a frontier, but in practice the Frankish frontier seems to have been quite different.

There are a couple of points stemming from that which I think a revised Barbarian Migrations… needs to develop. The first is to expand the points I made about the human, lived scale of the period, the fact that people get old and they die, that twenty years took as long to happen in the fifth century as they do now. These are, weirdly, points that have not impinged on a lot of the scholarship. But we need to remember that – probably – most of the Vandal warriors who sacked Carthage in 439 had almost all been born, and had grown up, in the Roman Empire. Only those older than 33 would have been born in Barbaricum. How many actually had any meaningful memory of life outside the Empire? Geiseric, the arch-Vandal of so many narratives, was almost certainly born on Roman soil. So, probably, were all the leaders of the (Visi)Goths after Athaulf. By 414 that group of Goths – if, that is, they were related to those who crossed the Danube in 376, though perhaps not all of them were – had been in the Empire for thirty-eight years. Theoderid, killed in battle in 451, is unlikely to have been older than seventy-five at the time. The warriors who followed Euric in the late 460s and 470s, as well as being born in Gaul, were probably the children of Goths born in Gaul, and grandchildren of people born either in the Balkans or en route across Italy or Spain. The Burgundian warriors famously mocked by Sidonius, if young warriors, had probably been born in Sapaudia, likely sons of men born elsewhere in Gaul. And who were their mothers? Likely provincial Romans. These men, of these generations, Burgundians, Vandals, Goths, are those referred to as ‘immigrant powers’ or ‘outside groups’ by Peter Heather on p.435 of The Fall of Rome. What assumptions lead one to call a second-, third- or even fourth-generation provincial Roman, even one also deploying a Gothic, Burgundian or Vandal identity, an immigrant or an outsider? Referring to such people, still, as immigrants or outsiders might well of course be simply lazy rather than ominous, a basic failure to remember the biographical details of such ‘barbarians’ (just as Heather forgets the biography of Emperor Honorius, whom he calls an 'infant' in 406, when he was actually 21). That however is all the more reason to emphasise them, when assessing the role of soldiers and leaders who held non-Roman identities in the fragmentation of the Empire (an issue of such contemporary importance). Identities are not entities; they are not essential or immanent. As I argued recently, they are wagers; the section on identity is another part of Barbarian Migrations in need of a rewrite.

Growing out of that is another point that needed developing in the first edition: that the Fifth-Century Crisis is not about Barbarian Invasions but above all about factions and civil war. Those factions are regional alliances between soldiers and their commanders, with barbarian identities – as many of the fourth-century Roman army had already deployed – and provincial Roman aristocrats. We need to rethink the assumptions that bedevil the discussion of provincial politics: that the barbarian soldiers had the whip-hand and were the leaders, that they were seeking to create independent kingdoms, and that people knew or even thought that the western Roman Empire was dying in the fifth century. A key change I will make to the book is abandoning the idea that in the 470s people knew the Empire had fallen. They clearly hadn’t, and they didn’t until Justinian’s Wars in the mid-sixth century. People very clearly, I think, knew something had gone badly wrong in the 470s and that the pars occidentalis was no longer functioning as such, but I can see no reason to think that they knew it was never going to make a come-back. What exactly was a ‘king’ in the fifth-century west? We need to stop thinking about this through a medieval lens and think harder about what the ‘courts’ of barbarian ‘kings’ meant in the fifth century. As I have said before, kingdoms were for losers. The intention of all the factions that we can identify, was to gain control of the Empire, on the fourth-century model and, for generals, barbarian and Roman, on the model of Stilicho. Those that managed to control the imperial centre – Ricimer and Gundobad for example – did not use the title king. Wherever we can make the comparison, military and civilian elites are in cahoots and evidently equals.
 
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I'm not really sure how to begin explaining how wrong this is.

The "barbarians" were not a bunch of ignorant yokels squatting in mud huts and bogs. They were players in the politics of the late Roman Empire, having spent most of their life in the Roman Empire moving in its high circles. Heck, the "arch-barbarian" Gaiseric was betrothed to the daughter of the Emperor Valentinian III. The Roman Empire may have been in a poor state, but Imperial princesses weren't married off to illiterates wearing animal pelts!
Even the Huns had spent several decades in and out of Roman service, with Attila earlier providing troops to Flavius Aetius in his fight against the Romano-Gothic aristocracy in southern Gaul. The often derided claim that Attila invaded the Empire in the 450s to press his claim for the hand in marriage of a daughter of Valentinian may not be far off. It would hardly be the first time a "barbarian" was brought into Roman politics as a military force for one aristocratic faction or another.

The short version is that successive civil wars ripped the Empire apart and frittered its resources away to the point that provincial aristocrats in Gaul, Spain, and possibly North Africa no longer felt a need to control Italy for its resources. For the longest time 'kingdoms were for losers'. "Barbarian" groups operating inside the empire, whether on their own or at the behest of one faction or another, wanted to become part of the Imperial structure. The Roman Empire was the greatest wealth concentration system Europe and the Near East had yet seen. (There was also no such thing as "entire tribes mobilizing en masse" like a particularly well armed but confused tour group on a package holiday!)
The increasing influence of non-Roman identities as a source of legitimacy further reduced the allure of needing to control Italy to be recognized as "properly Roman". Add into that the extinction of the Theodosian dynasty and there being no consensus for what made a true Emperor, and you have a recipe for an Imperial breakup. The "barbarians" did not destroy the Roman Empire; but their increased influence due to being brought into the Roman political system meant we did not see a reformed Roman Empire after the 450s. In 450 the Empire was in a bad way, but not "on the verge of collapse".
Indeed, Clovis, Odoacer, and Theoderic all existed in the Roman political system. Odoacer ostensibly ruled in the name of the Emperor, same with Theoderic and his successors. Both Theoderic and Clovis flirted with declaring themselves augustus but for various reasons did not. It is worth remembering that when Justinian ordered the invasion of Vandal North Africa, the Roman fleet stopped in Gothic-controlled Sicily to resupply and reorganize.

I highly recommend if you are interested in this area to read up on it. I recommend Guy Halsall's work Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West or Peter Heather's earlier work in The Goths. (In his later years Heather got a bit silly, blatantly disregarding his own very well regarded work to appeal to the popular narrative.)
Halsall also runs a pretty good blog on late antiquity and the early middle ages:
Already read it, and am aware of most of these things.

Negotiation and exchange, the prerequisites to usurpation, were compelled with force, and not Rome's first choice. Granted it was frequently contested, and this was very political, but it was ultimately still an invasion, or at least, I'm very comfortable calling it that.

The exchange, followed by usurpation was only possible because the contest of violence was one Rome frequently lost. That was the prequisite. Shades of it were seen as early as the Marcomanni wars. Negotiation was not Rome's first choice with the Vandals: they met them at the Rhine, making no offer of the federate status. They just lost. Mostly because the pressure was too widespread and too great, and their doctrine of responding with a field army when the limes were breached couldn't cope: too many moles to wack, too many hostilities, leaving them to vulnerable elsewhere.

An invasion that deploys politics to expand the power of the advancing group is war with another battlefield. If violence sets the stage, and keeps the dance going, the shindig is just war, an invasion with frequent negotiation and ceasefire.
 
Already read it, and am aware of most of these things.

You read Halsall and are still trying to rehabilitate Gibbon? Do I have that right?

I think you have to prove that Rome truly "fell", as a starting point. It definitely transformed, but that's a different thing now isn't it.

On this topic, a good overview in this three-part blog post (by a guy with a PhD in Roman history, albeit specializing in the middle and late Republic rather than late antiquity):


Devereaux comes down on the "yes, Rome fell" side of this debate, but he acknowledges at the outset that it depends on where you're talking about. Obviously the Eastern Roman empire did not fall until the 15th century; that being said, it's been a while since I read these but as I recall Devereaux argues that the Western empire indeed fell apart and this was understood by the people who lived through it (and is reflected in e.g. the breakdown of long-distance trade and corresponding decline in the complexity of material culture across the western Mediterranean).
 
You read Halsall and are still trying to rehabilitate Gibbon? Do I have that right?
Not entirely, he was too reductive with the angle, but I do believe social movements produce history as or more often than geography, and a mass conversion to Christianity seems like a social movement of sufficient shift I'd expect to see changes in values. I'm open to considering that a Roman society still moored to its polytheism would have responded differently, because it is possible that domestic pressure on Emperors wouldn't have been equivalent.
 
I think you have to prove that Rome truly "fell", as a starting point. It definitely transformed, but that's a different thing now isn't it.

I'm not sure that people living in most of Italy, or Constantinople for that matter, in 476 would've necessarily understood that Odoacer deposing some kid in Ravenna marked a particular decisive break or collapse.

We're talking about a long term process of political decentralisation over several centuries, in one part of a previously larger polity. Meanwhile the other part took a very different path and remained a centralised state. It's not necessarily something that needs to be explained as a single "fall" or used to derive lessons.

6th century imho after Theodoric or 1453 (60,61. 73 or 78 for the last remnants).


Economic problems. Can't afford legions and republican ideals eroded/land owners not releasing men to join. Means you use unreliable Germans or whatever.

Even late Italia had the manpower. No money to raise legions or desire to serve.

Ricimer more or less lead to final downfall of 476.

The last Roman soldier born in a Roman state who might consider themselves Roman defending the last Roman territory died in Crimea or Morea in the 1470s.

Justinian is also a contender once Theodoric died. Iirc he was technically a vassal/ruling on behalf of ERE.
 
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(My take: Rome fell when the Greek Republic convinced Greeks to call themselves Hellenes instead of Romans, so the culprit is national identities)


There were still self identifying Ronans on places like lesbos 19th century. Mainland Greeks were hellenes.
 
I mean, Germanic language and Phoenician alphabet, ultimately
 
Devereaux comes down on the "yes, Rome fell" side of this debate, but he acknowledges at the outset that it depends on where you're talking about. Obviously the Eastern Roman empire did not fall until the 15th century; that being said, it's been a while since I read these but as I recall Devereaux argues that the Western empire indeed fell apart and this was understood by the people who lived through it (and is reflected in e.g. the breakdown of long-distance trade and corresponding decline in the complexity of material culture across the western Mediterranean).
I've taken the time to read his series in its entirety. Part 3 I agree with wholly. The collapse of the monopoly of force on the Mediterranean was a dagger wound that could not be recovered from. It pulled the foundation, the food surplus, out from the Jenga tower.

Decline from within in part one glosses over a few things, though, which Guy also does(he is crucial to formation of that consensus). I generally like Guy, though. Here Bret does too, ignoring the circumstances of the tribe that dealt the dagger wound.
The point I want to draw out in all of this is that it is not the case that the Roman Empire in the west was swept over by some destructive military tide. Instead the process here is one in which the parts of the western Roman Empire steadily fragment apart as central control weakens: the empire isn’t destroy from outside, but comes apart from within. While many of the key actors in that are the ‘barbarian’ foederati generals and kings, many are Romans and indeed (as we’ll see next time) there were Romans on both sides of those fissures. Guy Halsall, in Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West (2007) makes this point, that the western Empire is taken apart by actors within the empire, who are largely committed to the empire, acting to enhance their own position within a system the end of which they could not imagine.5
Don't this'll escape revision. It ignores:

-In 405, Vandal crossing of the Rhine met resistance, either by the Franks acting as authorized agents of the Roman state or Roman soldiers. Huns drove this: Alans and Vandals were in Pannonia not long before

-They extensively plunder Northern Gaul, eventually crossing into Hispania, in 409, at which point the Romans grudgingly yield to their demands of federate status(not freely given)

-The Goths devastate them in 417 on Roman orders, but in 422, they defeat the Romans and their allies, proceeding to wreak havoc in the Western Mediterranean.

-Gunderic dies attacking a Roman city, Gaiseric ascends, proceeds into North Africa, defeats Bonifacius, a Roman official, in battle. Proceeds to defeat another Roman army in 430, receives territory in a peace treaty, takes Carthage outright after betraying said treaty shortly after

-immediately seizes the major Western Mediterranean Islands from Roman control

-spends 35 years making it quite clear that he's destroyed the Roman monopoly of force in the Med, ultimately defeating a Roman navy of formidable size in the process, and irrevocably ganking the economic foundation of the urbanization in the west: sea trade

For a people who are supposed to be attacking Rome "from within", these guys seem to have spent about 60 years attacking Roman cities, destroying Roman armies and navies, while acting entirely contrary to THE core Roman economic interest, and even sacked Rome itself. Oh, and they did so with their own distinct language, religion, and political leadership.

It sure looks a whole lot like invasion. They came from outside and fought and betrayed Rome with brief cessations for six decades, more or less. No invasion is just pretty goofy groupthink propped up by prestige of position: if this is not two warring nations, it's hard to imagine what else it could be.
 
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There are many reasons Rome fell, which do you think were most influential, and does it have any relevance to the modern day?

Internal reasons, rather than external, I believe.

Most empires throughout history sprang out, blossomed or expanded through a 'Goden Age', then declined and transformed into something else. Some, like the Roman Empire, endured through the centuries and survived multiple cycles. Others, such as Alexander the Great's Macedonian Empire, were short-lived and died out along with its creator.

The 20th century saw the decline and fall of 6 empires (7 if you include Russia twice). The 21st century is likely to witness the decline and transformation of China, the Russian Federation, the US and the EU, though the latter isn't considered an empire in traditional terms.

As for your second point, I think we all live in the graveyards of empires and their relevance will always be there to educate and dare us to do better.
 
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I mean, Germanic language and Phoenician alphabet, ultimately

Oh. So I've just been hallucinating all the Latin words that are used in everyday language in the English-speaking world and the writing on the monuments and statues that the archaeologists found.

Silly me.

:huh:
 
If you're going to argue that Rome is relevant today specifically because we use the Latin alphabet, that also means that about twelve other steps in a long transmission chain from the late Bronze Age/early Iron Age Levant to me writing this post are at least as relevant, and mostly they're far less studied and understood in the modern west.

Broadly we are talking about the alphabet first being developed by the Phoenicians in the aftermath of the Bronze Age collapse, and spreading through their trade and other contacts to the ancient Greeks and their Italian colonies (this alphabet also forming the ultimate basis of most other alphabets), then the Etruscans then to the Latins who formed the Roman empire. But just talking about the territorial extent of the western roman empire doesn't actually get us the Latin script being used for English in England, that's a post-Western Empire story about the development of the Church.

For that strand of the story, we're starting from pretty much those same Iron Age Canaanites and heading to the development of Judaism from the Yahweh cult, to the emergence of Christians as an offshoot Jewish sect, to the adoption of said religion as the state religion in Rome, then the emergence of the Church as a key institution after the end of central political power in the Western Empire and its remaining separated from, and aloof from, the church in Constantinople with its shift to Greek predominance. Then eventually we get to the 7th century and Latin Church missionaries reaching England and bringing with them the Latin script that would come to replace the Germanic runic writing previously used by the Anglo Saxons.

Like, yep, the Western Roman Empire was a link in that chain but it's just one element, and honestly far from the most interesting!
 
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I'll post my usual:

calvin2.jpg
 
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