Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[Yzman]

Does anyone think that cultural victory will be harder now? It seems like open borders will be harder to get with the changes, especially now that the AI will consider what benefit it gives you. But then again there is that policy that will boost the bonus of trade routes and open borders and maybe religion? So it may even out.

 

[Buccaneer]

Look I'm a realist and I understand it's a business for 2K to work on post-game content for Civ 5 (as well as support). Hell, I wouldn't put it pass them to be jotting these down for the next Civ iteration down the line.

God I hope not, terrible ideas or implementations.

 

[Buccaneer]

Does anyone think that cultural victory will be harder now? It seems like open borders will be harder to get with the changes, especially now that the AI will consider what benefit it gives you. But then again there is that policy that will boost the bonus of trade routes and open borders and maybe religion? So it may even out.

You can always declare war to get the open borders to send your last GMs in.

 

[Yzman]

You can always declare war to get the open borders to send your last GMs in.

I am not referring to GMs, I am referring to the continual bonus you get from having open borders with the AI.

 

[comatosedragon]

Well, I may be going against the grain here; but I LOVE the changes to Japan. Anything that gives you extra culture [especially early] is excellent. You should your samurai to help rebuild economy after warring. I think these changes push Japan into a Mid-Tier Civ.

 

[project_mercy]

Deal AI: Make it so the AI will never pay more than about 15 gold-per-turn. There were cases before of 40+ gold-per-turn.

This will effectively break the "Scramble for Africa" - Ottoman Turks on Deity win/achievement, as you will be unable to trick Egypt into giving you enough gold that they won't just automatically win (at least once you cripple/eliminate Ethiopia)

I think it's a good change, I just think that if you're going to do it, you will need to adjust Scramble. While you're at it, overhauling the whole scenario would not go amiss The civil war change is nice, but it wasn't really a huge deal. Getting the custom Keshik clan names back in the Mongol scenario will be a nice touch. I missed that. It was always nice following where they ended up in the end (if they lived).

 

[civ54lyfe]

the changes to AI restricting Open Border deals increases the value to getting your Ideology passed in the WC (sort of a mini-global OB). but does it not also somewhat let the human player destroy AI religious units with a minor better outcome since it would be more likely that that religious unit did not originate from an AI that you have OB with?

i realize that religious units can move anywhere regardless, but seem to recall the diplo penalty being far harsher for capturing an OB civ's religious unit.

 

[Stellarnight]

Most of the changes look pretty good though i wish Honor was made stronger
Germany looks interesting now.
Despite what many here is saying, there is sort of a historical basis behind samurais and fishing boats as in the Edo period, most samurais were not rich. A lot of them have to do odd jobs to make ends meet which ahem includes fishing. Some even sold their swords away and replacing it with a wooden/bamboo sword. Plus New Japan can't be worse off then Old Japan right

 

[Kwami]

Still no mods in multiplayer, though?

 

[georgie]

God, I am soooo excited to play Germany. The Hanse is going to make them incredibly good late game. 25% (or more!) production bonus? Huge. Just think if you get the Kremlin with them (and have lots of oil), soooo many Panzers.

Unfortunately, I'll have to wait for it to come out on Mac...

 

[Kurtbob]

Japan's changes are very different from what I expected, but I am happy to see the changes. Starting next to an atoll will be incredibly advantageous for Japan's early game. The Samurai's change is rather odd to me, but, as others have mentioned, it will be useful after conquering coastal cities.

The Zero remains. No matter how many Unique Unit polls we make, the Devs just don't see how pointless this unit really is. While the no oil prerequisite makes it a bit more viable, I personally would have just liked a new UB. I have to say though, the Devs have made Japan work as an isolationist Civ and the Zero does fit into that theme.

Germany's boosts are very nice. The UA is still meh, but the Hanse will really make Germany shine.

 

[Yucatan]

hi, guys. Awesome community.

With the small tweaks in policies, what nerfs/buffs will you think be strong enough to deviate from trad opener + rationalism asap ?
Giving some beaker boost in some other tree ?
(i agree pledge to protect + Consulates need a removal in tree or nerf).

Nice patch coming overall.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Germany's Hanse really excites me. I like the effects and I'm kind of a Hanseatic League buff. It's really the perfect way to get me interested in a civ that I had been largely dismissive of since the very beginning.

 

[Aaron90495]

hi, guys. Awesome community.

With the small tweaks in policies, what nerfs/buffs will you think be strong enough to deviate from trad opener + rationalism asap ?
Giving some beaker boost in some other tree ?
(i agree pledge to protect + Consulates need a removal in tree or nerf).

Nice patch coming overall.

Welcome to CivFanatics!!

Consulates, as you said, needs a major nerf obviously. This could even be indirect, like making the diplo penalty for not backing down from protection much more severe.

I think Aesthetics needs a small buff, Commerce a tiny one, and Rationalism a decent nerf. I mean, it gives science and happiness, two of the three most essential resources in the game. Cut the opener to 5% OR cut the +science from specialists to 1 (instead of 2). Then, maybe take out the happiness from universities or observatories. That would balance the trees pretty well, I think. I'm too tired/lazy right now to think of how exactly to balance Aesthetics and Commerce (Patronage seems perfectly balanced).

As for Trad/Liberty, make Meritocracy +2 happiness from connected cities, move GE purchases to Liberty from Trad, and add to Meritocracy (or Aristocracy) a 50% reduction of the per-city science penalty.

Honor needs a complete revamp, and Piety needs a few buffs that, again, I'm too tired to think of.

 

[Rohili]

I don't understand the need to cap the amount of GPT that the AI is willing to grant. This basically means that you can never get fair value for anything worth more than 15 GPT, which equates to a mere 2.5 luxuries.

15 GPT is also a very trivial sum in the industrial age and beyond, where you would easily be getting more than 300 GPT.

If there was an issue of the AI valuing certain things too much (the only thing that comes to mind is what the AI is willing to pay for peace), then they should fix the AI's valuation of those things, rather than impose this inflexible cap across the board.

 

[Stellarnight]

hi, guys. Awesome community.

With the small tweaks in policies, what nerfs/buffs will you think be strong enough to deviate from trad opener + rationalism asap ?
Giving some beaker boost in some other tree ?
(i agree pledge to protect + Consulates need a removal in tree or nerf).

Nice patch coming overall.

Pledge to Protect and Consulates would be fine if the diplomatic penalty for failing to honor your pledge actually matters! The player should be either be forced to denounce the bully(no influence change), grant a sum of gold to the CS(Relation increase), declare war on the bully(bigger increase in influence) or drop his/her pledge (Pledge to Protect for that CS disabled for the next 30 turns and -10 influence(not resting point) with all CS; if you are just randomly pledging and consulating, then all the CS are not your friends for the next 10 turns)

 

[whyidie]

Played up to the industrial as Japan. Random map, which appears to be fractal with lots of water. No atolls but my cap had 3 pearls. Each city had at least 1 and no more than two fish resources. Not a single atoll to be found. May as well bump it up to 3 culture for atolls, considering the scarcity

Went Liberty and the fishing boats did well enough to offset the culture loss. Not overpowered, but nicely balanced. Because I stayed on the top half of the tech tree and needed my sea resources improved I haven't used the samurai for this yet. Maybe during my next expansion I'll make some use of it as I'll use them as escorts.

No requirement for Zero + Xp for defense may make the UU worthwhile.

Overall the changes took Japan from a Civ I played once or twice then avoided, to one I'd look forward to playing with again.

 

[Fredgerd]

Personally, I really wish they were nerfing Forbidden Palace. That wonder is way to powerful throughout the game. Maybe if the bonus went away after a certain tech level or if they reduced it to only one extra delegate. Right now its a free ticket to diplo victory.

 

[Matthew.]

Question R.E. Japan: Isn't the problem just the same with the Zero? That you should have won by the time the Zero comes along?

Play on larger maps with continents. Firaxis didn't put in a second half of the tech tree just for looks.

 

[Txurce]

Play on larger maps with continents. Firaxis didn't put in a second half of the tech tree just for looks.

Boom!