Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[georgie]

Someone who has played the patch as Germany:
How screwed is Germany if the WC Resolution blocking trade with CS is passed?

 

[Browd]

Don't let that happen.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Someone who has played the patch as Germany:
How screwed is Germany if the WC Resolution blocking trade with CS is passed?

About as screwed as Germany was before the fall patch, or before Banking is researched.
OK, they lost the Landsknecht, but their USA got buffed.

Speaking of the Landsknecht: They are really awesome ! Great policy/unit to have when you're Venice. They cost a pittance (especially when you also get Mercantilism) and them being able to move on the turn when they were bought means you can buy one, move him out of the city, buy another, move it out of the city, buy another one...
You can raise a whole army in one city in one turn.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

I actually have yet to play BNW since it came out, since I've been so busy. Reading over the patch notes, I can't really judge the changes.

The one thing I notice is that there are still no changes to the modding tools for unit asset import/export ease of use. I was really hoping this would come in BNW or the fall patch.

 

[joncnunn]

Hum. best change on the list is the much needed nerfing of the pledge to protect + consulates combo.
Between this, the gold vs gold per turn fix, and a few more pantheons, I'm downloading the beta now.
(There are a host of other improvements listed, but the above jumped out.)

 

[Kintara]

Did they change how trade routes update their trade amounts? I picked up the policy that adds to CS trade routes, and my gold shot up immediately. I thought I remember them only updating once you reestablish the route later. Anyway, the Hanseatic League appreciated it.

 

[Matthew.]

Quoting myself since I didn't get an answer. Surely someone here must have played a full Japan game with the beta patch and can answer.

So someone explain Samurai to me. I'm guessing they don't upgrade into muskets because it gives a longer window for them to use fishing boats. Or whatever. Isn't this technically a nerf? Japan is stuck with Samurai all throughout Renaissance and the only bonus is the ability to build fishing boats, which is highly situational and won't come into play in most games. Sure, they get drill 1, but I think I'd rather just have the base musket unit with 24 strength and get my own drill 1.

I admit I haven't played a full game with Japan yet in the beta patch, so I could very well be missing something--hence asking in this post.

Still haven't played them yet, but may have time to do so tonight. Just seems like "unable to upgrade until a full era later" is a nerf. Kind of neat for thematic purposes, but not being able to upgrade or use muskets all the way until rifles sounds horrible from a gameplay perspective.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Quoting myself since I didn't get an answer. Surely someone here must have played a full Japan game with the beta patch and can answer.



Still haven't played them yet, but may have time to do so tonight. Just seems like "unable to upgrade until a full era later" is a nerf. Kind of neat for thematic purposes, but not being able to use muskets all the way until rifles sounds horrible from a gameplay perspective.

well, im pretty sure you could build/buy a musket just not upgrade into one. i dont think it means you dont get muskets at all. but waiting on heavy promo'd samurai to upgrade til rifles is indeed a long time.

 

[DemonMaster]

Quoting myself since I didn't get an answer. Surely someone here must have played a full Japan game with the beta patch and can answer.



Still haven't played them yet, but may have time to do so tonight. Just seems like "unable to upgrade until a full era later" is a nerf. Kind of neat for thematic purposes, but not being able to upgrade or use muskets all the way until rifles sounds horrible from a gameplay perspective.

During the Renaissance you can build both Samurai and Musketman. The difference between Samurai and Musketman isn't that much anyway. In my Japan game I built both Samurai and Musketman during this era.

 

[Matthew.]

Yes, that is true. I'm assuming the fishing boat ability promo doesn't carry over?

Just wondering about the purpose. I mean it isn't like you are forced to upgrade your units, so if you want to use Samurai longer, that is a choice you have. But to cut out the musket upgrade and for what? What was the purpose? Is it purely for style?

 

[Browd]

Does allow you build Samurai later than you otherwise would have been able.

 

[leadtothehead]

About as screwed as Germany was before the fall patch, or before Banking is researched.
OK, they lost the Landsknecht, but their USA got buffed.

Speaking of the Landsknecht: They are really awesome ! Great policy/unit to have when you're Venice. They cost a pittance (especially when you also get Mercantilism) and them being able to move on the turn when they were bought means you can buy one, move him out of the city, buy another, move it out of the city, buy another one...
You can raise a whole army in one city in one turn.

Seems like Landsknechts could really become a balance issue, your point that in theory you could build a army in a single turn, plus if they retain the new bonuses to pillaging and sacking cities?, seems like it will make Commerce a favorite social policy tree for most.

 

[Txurce]

During the Renaissance you can build both Samurai and Musketman. The difference between Samurai and Musketman isn't that much anyway.

Does allow you build Samurai later than you otherwise would have been able.

This is why. If roughly equal, but with more promotions, then you'd want to build as many as possible. The extra era helps a lot, if you think how short the window for long swordsmen is.

 

[Matthew.]

Thanks for the answers.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Does allow you build Samurai later than you otherwise would have been able.

Did they change when Longswords become obsolete at some point? I could have sworn I used to be able to build Longswords and then immediately upgrade them to Muskets. I remember doing that in my America game when an allied CS was gifting Samurai.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Seems like Landsknechts could really become a balance issue, your point that in theory you could build a army in a single turn, plus if they retain the new bonuses to pillaging and sacking cities?

In theory ? I've done it in my ongoing Venice game and gifted some of them to a CS on the other continent when the Zulu attacked it. I haven't yet researched Metallurgy, so I don't know if they retain their bonus as Lancers.
Commerce really did get a pretty significant buff. It was always one of the better trees and even though they have improved some Exploration policies it still can't compete. I think the best balancing measure would be to saddle the Landsknecht with increased unit upkeep. Mercenaries don't have a reputation for cost effectiveness when used as part of a standing army during peace.
I think Exploration should also have a policy with an exclusive naval unit. Privateers would be good, but they're a standard unit and the Dutch have a UU variant. Maybe the Ship of the Line. Merge the existing Naval Tradition bonus with Merchant Navy as a buff and unlock the Ship of the Line with Naval Tradition. Compensate the English with a trade oriented UU or maybe a special UI that can be built on luxury resources and gives increased gold and production.

 

[flying_dug0ng]

In theory ? I've done it in my ongoing Venice game and gifted some of them to a CS on the other continent when the Zulu attacked it. I haven't yet researched Metallurgy, so I don't know if they retain their bonus as Lancers.
Commerce really did get a pretty significant buff. It was always one of the better trees and even though they have improved some Exploration policies it still can't compete. I think the best balancing measure would be to saddle the Landsknecht with increased unit upkeep. Mercenaries don't have a reputation for cost effectiveness when used as part of a standing army during peace

Gotta agree with your points here; they're super cheap with Big Ben + Mercantilism, AND the bonuses do upgrade into Lancers. Having a blast with them as Venice though

 

[kaspergm]

In theory ? I've done it in my ongoing Venice game and gifted some of them to a CS on the other continent when the Zulu attacked it.

How much DOES a Landsknecht cost? This sounds like a bug, normal units don't move on the turn they are purchased, and with Arsenal of Democracy, this sounds like it could have some pretty unfortunate consequences.

 

[Yucatan]

welcome to civfanatics!! :d
I think aesthetics needs a small buff, commerce a tiny one, and rationalism a decent nerf. I mean, it gives science and happiness, two of the three most essential resources in the game. Cut the opener to 5% or cut the +science from specialists to 1 (instead of 2). Then, maybe take out the happiness from universities or observatories. That would balance the trees pretty well, i think. I'm too tired/lazy right now to think of how exactly to balance aesthetics and commerce (patronage seems perfectly balanced).

As for trad/liberty, make meritocracy +2 happiness from connected cities, move ge purchases to liberty from trad, and add to meritocracy (or aristocracy) a 50% reduction of the per-city science penalty.

I agree also on Honor and Piety.

Honor needs a complete revamp, and piety needs a few buffs that, again, i'm too tired to think of.

Thx.
I agree Liberty need a small buff (reverse free-GP "cost" maybe & meritocracy + 2 happiness).

Changed MINIMUM_SETTLE_FERTILITY to 20000, up from 5000 to keep AI civs from settling worthless plots. Added some logging code to track plot values.

Dunno if i'm the only one but i still get ice-cities AI in the late game.

- <snip> Yeah for the pledge nerf !
- Exploration and Commerce tree buffs are nice (Cultural Renaissance during World Fair is just imba).
- New balance on trade routes / trade-Ai are very nice too
- Love new pantheon too. More choice is always great.

Moderator Action: Inappropriate language removed.
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[sendos]

How much DOES a Landsknecht cost? This sounds like a bug, normal units don't move on the turn they are purchased, and with Arsenal of Democracy, this sounds like it could have some pretty unfortunate consequences.

So you can still purchase landsknechts even when you get an ideology?

welcome to civfanatics!! :d
I think aesthetics needs a small buff, commerce a tiny one, and rationalism a decent nerf. I mean, it gives science and happiness, two of the three most essential resources in the game. Cut the opener to 5% or cut the +science from specialists to 1 (instead of 2). Then, maybe take out the happiness from universities or observatories. That would balance the trees pretty well, i think. I'm too tired/lazy right now to think of how exactly to balance aesthetics and commerce (patronage seems perfectly balanced).

EDIT: I disagree that rationalism should be nerfed. It was OP in vanilla but in BNW it's fine as is. And correction, it doesn't give happiness bonuses so you must be referring to old rationalism.

Aesthetics could be given a small buff, such as enabling artists in the medieval era to make their great paintings with extra artwork slot somewhere before industrial era rather than having to get religion ASAP and get cathedrals or wait until industrial era until museums come into the game. Then great artists have to compete with archaeologists for room.