Falling Down Under the Power Graph

[Pottery]

How do you people manage to stay on top of the power graph?

I play at prince level on Pangea maps, Warlord expansion. I’ve tried ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING I can to keep up with the AI's military power. I specialise three or more cities on military production and, as soon as they get up and running, I crank one good quality up-to-date unit every 5/6 turns, But it doesn’t work. No matter how hard I try, I remain at the bottom of the power graph. At some point after rifles, the AI top dog invariably perceives me as ‘weak’ and attacks my border cities with huge stacks of siege weapons. (Usually I am so militarily behind at this stage that diplomacy seems no longer a factor). I can even accurately predict when and where the AI is going to strike the fatal blow, and feel helpless in the face of the AI’s brute force.

 

[automator]

You're at least on the right track.

Make sure you're placing cities correctly. You want a city that has plenty of food and multiple hills and/or forests. A city along a river with a handful of flood plains (farmed) or food resourses, surrounded by plains hills, especially if one of those plains hills (or more) has iron/copper, can be a great production city.

Try to get a level 4 unit so you can build heroic epic in that city.

Get forges in those production cities.

If you've built the pyramids, turn on Police State: that extra 25% military unit build speed is pretty nice.

Then, when you're above or near power to the AI (the AI is wary about sending units your way when you're attacking their cities; I've had successful wars against AIs who have about 50% more power than I), attack. It's best if you can set up three or so separate mixed stacks along the border and swarm in. Take three cities in the first turn or two of the war; raze unless they are great. Heal, then advance. Congrats: you've just crippled your neighbor, and their power will never be above your power.

 

[Pellanor]

Producing a good quality up-to-date unit every 5-6 turns is rather slow. My military producing specialists usually spit one out ever 1-2 turns.

What you need to do is make sure you have a city with a high base production, and build your Heroic Epic there, that city should easily be able to produce one unitevery 2-3 turns, if not faster. Once I get Westpoint I usually build it in the same city, so that these units I'm spitting out are better quality too. Between a Forge, Military Academy and the Heroic Epic, you've got +150% production, and this is still in the medevil era. A Maceman only costs 70 hammers, so you'll only need a 28 base production to produce one per turn.

 

[Sisiutil]

Welcome to the forum!

It's quite normal for the AI civs to be ahead on power for much of the game. It sounds like what you need to do is not just build units, but use them properly--in other words, don't just sit back and wait to be attacked--get out there and attack someone first!

Seriously, the one main area where you have a HUGE advantage over the AI is warfare. The AI is just not very good at it, especially in the early game. This game is won or lost, in my opinion, by 1 AD. By then you should have at least started your first war. That's how you weaken an opponent and gain territory, population, good city locations, and valuable resources.

 

[ElJojo]

do you play on standard size map ?
On standard map, on monarch sometimes I only have one city which is always producing units ( and the few buildings useful forge etc.). Maybe two. But when I prepare for war, some other cities with good production are also building a few units.
I think the problem may be that you are not attacking soon enough. You should wage early wars with chariots or axes to cripple your opponents and grow bigger (so that you catch up with the Ai bonuses).
Then you can do pillage wars, as been said, just launch a surprise attack and raze a few cities.
And finally use diplomacy to start wars between AI, this way they're going to use their big armies and their power will fall. Then you attack.

I would not say the game is won or lost on 1 AD. It can be lost but i would'nt brag about victory at this point.

 

[Bierp]

Out of curiosity, how are you doing in the tech race?

Are you spending so much energy cranking out units that you are behind in techs, thus producing units inferior to the AI?

If you can get ahead in techs you'll find that fewer superior units will keep your power rating in pretty good shape. Somewhere I've seen the chart with the relative power ratings of each unit. (sorry I don't have the link handy)

Just another line of thinking.

B

 

[tuckerthecat]

I think you have more of a tech research/trade problem than a military problem if you are getting attacked later in the game with more advanced units. When I was new to civ 4 & struggling part of my problem was I didnt have any research goals, I didnt beeline for anything & would research all the little techs that I thought would help me right away.

I just won a space race on monarch playing the 24 civ world map. My research path was something like..

farming
AH
wheel
pottery
writing
sailing
alphabet
metal casting
civil service
philo
paper
education
liberalism

By researching deep down a single tech path I was always 1st to all those techs, as a result I could trade for all the techs I skipped.
I played as Carthage & never expanded past 4 cities ( till I founded some 1 tile island cities late ) & never declared war a single time & never had war declared on me the entire game ( thats a 1st ). I also didnt produce a single military unit after riflemen, I was friendly with the 5 other most powerful civs & had defensive pacts with them all.

 

[Naismith]

Your power rating is partially based on your place in the tech race, as mentioned above. I would like to bet most of your problem lies in teching, not in the number of military units you are building.

So, I second Bierp.

The best unit you can build for your power rating is the cottage.

 

[LordRahl]

I pay the least amount of attention to Power Graph, because over the course of quite a few games, I noticed that even if I have far superior force, I can still be at the bottom of the Graph (way at the bottom too), and yet I have little problem overcoming the AI, which despite being at the top, usually has either few good units, or a crapload of obsolete cannon fodder... This is on Monarch by the way, but had the same happen on earlier levels. In fact I can't even remember a game I played, where I wouldn't spend most of the game on the bottom of the Power Graph, even though I was leading in GNP/Mfg, and tech.

 

[asabahi]

Some city improvements, I believe, effect the power rating. Building walls, castles, forges, factory, docks, and barracks all add to your overall power ratings. Unit promotions do not effect the power rating.

 

[Pottery]

Thanks you all for your useful advice.

I play standard size map, and I’m usually either ahead or at least up-do-date in military techs (but I often lag behind in non-military techs). I have the tendency to beeline most military techs (that’s because I’m paranoid about being backstabbed). I nearly always play with the protective trait (again, because of paranoia). I disable tech trade and vassal states. Disabling tech trade means that, unless I have plenty of money, I can’t bribe guys like Montezuma into attacking somebody else.

First of all, I didn’t know that certain buildings would affect your position in the power graph. For example, I rarely build walls and castles, and have barracks and dry-docks only in my military farms and few other places. I didn’t now that the power rating is partly based on what techs you have researched. Are non-military techs also relevant here? I’m surprised to hear that promotions don’t affect the power rating. That’s seems a flaw to me.

This is my dilemma:

1) The power graph isn’t a reflection of my true military strength. So I shouldn’t pay much attention to it.

2) On the other hand, I’m more likely to be backstabbed if I’m low in the power graph. So, if I want to decrease the likelihood of being attacked, I should make sure I have a good power rating.

From what you people are saying it seems to me that I should wage more pillage wars. In other words, instead of trying to raise my power rating, I should lower my opponents’. I only wage wars to conquer well placed sites, holy shrines or capital cities (razing some useless cities along the way). But I’ve never started a war just to cripple my opponent’s economy. Maybe that was a mistake.

I attack as soon as I have catapults (or Hwacha, if I play Wang Kon) and often I manage to destroy one opponent and cripple another before macemen. In many games, I conquer two capital cities before the rifle age. The problem is that there are always going to be two or more dangerous opponents I couldn’t attack earlier than rifles (because they are too far away, or because I was engaged in another front, etc.). One of them becomes top dog and, after the rifle age, razes a couple of border cities with tons of troops, and pillages my economy to a standstill.

I seem to be doing pretty well in the early phase of the game. In my latest game (Prince/Pangea/standard size), for example, I had conquered the holy shrine of the most widespread religion, and founded a couple of religions myself. I had most of the early wonders (acquired either by conquest or by production). I had a couple of ideal production sites and plenty of money coming in through religion. And I tell to myself: “All right. This time there is no way you are going to lose this.” Instead I screw it up. Indeed, I nearly always screw it up!

 

[DaveMcW]

How are you doing on the production graph?

 

[Pellanor]

If you check this page you'll find an explanation of how your power rating is determined.

The quick summary:
every 2 population in your empire is worth 1 warrior. So a civ with a size 4 city and 1 warrior has the same power as a civ with a size 1 city and 3 warriors.

Certain technologies effect your power. Gunpowder is the same as 12 warriors, or a size 24 city.

Buildings are worth 2 warriors for the basics, up to 8 warriors for some wonders.

1 modern armor is worth 40 warriors. 2 Axemen = 1 maceman.


Hope this helps

 

[Bierp]

Thanks you all for your useful advice.

I play standard size map, and I’m usually either ahead or at least up-do-date in military techs (but I often lag behind in non-military techs). I have the tendency to beeline most military techs (that’s because I’m paranoid about being backstabbed). I nearly always play with the protective trait (again, because of paranoia). I disable tech trade and vassal states. Disabling tech trade means that, unless I have plenty of money, I can’t bribe guys like Montezuma into attacking somebody else.

I have to admit that I've never played with Tech Trading off. For me this is one of the great parts of the game.

The AI is famous for using tech trading to keep up. Taking this away from them would seem to swing a large advantage to the player. I would think that with a proper Cottage Economy that the human player would be able to mount an insurmountable tech lead (and thus a power lead by building superior units.)

The AI tends to run a more mixed economy and I wouldn't think that the level advantage of Prince (as the OP said he's playing) would be enough to overcome a well formulated cottage spam.

B

 

[OceansEleven]

Alt + Click one city, so all your cities are selected. Then make like 2 defense, 2 sieges, and 2 offense units in all cities. Go with maybe 1 more siege. And 1 more offense.

Needless to say, your gold income will go down, but if you're worried about power more than that, then it's okay.


But, trust me on this, it's not how many units you have. It's how you use them. I've been through so many wars in which the AI is much higher than me. What you should do is a good stack of maybe 2 or 3 groups. Each group having just like 4-5 *REALLY depends on how big the city is/how many defense units there are in the city you want to attack!* offense city killers, about 3 sieges*once again, how many defense units they have* and like 3 defense to protect those guys, with one of them being medic. You take the city, and the next, and the next. They will have crumbled by then. Maybe stop the war, or just do that pause thing to reinforce. Then go at it again. That's if you're declaring war.

If they've declared war on you, just hope they send units in 1 huge group. Gather all your sieges and offense, and just kill them. I love doing that. Stupid AI.

 

[ThomasHardy]

I never even look at the power graph.

 

[cabert]

good advice + basic understanding of the power graph is already given, so just my 2 cents:

- The best way to stay high on power is to kill the powerful neighbours early . You beeline to military techs. That's only worth anything if you actually use your military advantage.
- Population is really important. The best move in the early game is to expand. Pop = power! Why ? because you have direct connection between pop and power + you gain production capacity + you gain ressources + you prevent the AI from doing all this!
- Yes, non military techs also account for power. Sometimes even more than military ones

 

[Naismith]

What cabert said.

Reasons I watch the power graph closely:
1) The AI's use it to determine if you are weak.
2) If one AI declares war against you, others are more even more likely to follow suit, especially if you are low in power.
3) If you declare war against an AI, other AI's are more likely to see it as an opportunity to declare war against you if you are low in power.
4) AI's are more likely to demand tribute. If you don't comply, you get negative diplomatic modifiers.

Even if you think you are in good shape power-wise, you can't afford the appearance of being weak. One thing is for sure: Having to defend against two invasions on opposite sides of your territory is not a formula for success.

Generally speaking, when playing on Prince I lag in power until I get Alphabet, when my tech trading brings me to the #1 spot or close to it. I try to stay close to the top or better for the rest of the game. On Monarch, tech trading alone doesn't get me to the top, and I am vulnerable on the power rating for a longer time.

 

[cabert]

In a monarch level game I'm playing (P666 - 02, SG forum), i climbed in the power graph from dead last to n°2 by
- tech trading like there is no tomorrow (HBR! Theology!)
- building units obviously
- capturing nearby cities (more pop = more power!)

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I like que-swapping units in order to make the AI think I am weak, and when the fool attacks, I unload a unit of each type in each city and in about 4 - 5 turns, have a full attack force. Of course I have a couple defenders around (maybe a chariot or 2 and archers) to defend my resources until my full force is available. I love to shock-and-awe the AI when it thinks I'm weak. Great way to avoid "you declared war on us!" and "You declared war on our friend!" modifiers. Especially if someone from your religion alliance is crowding your space and preventing further expansion. Go piss them off and look weak. They'll declare...