Fascist Patch for Civ3

[VoodooAce]

Oh, come on, Scipio. We all know that the Holocaust never even happened, man! It's all just a conspiracy by the jews and communists. That genius historian in England said so!


Sorry, just figured I'd beat some the nazis to the punch.

 

[Chuckster]

Well, Giorgicus, I knew you couldnt reply with any intellectual insight...instead we got a new "internet censor" who says I should go to some white supremist website. I think you should play the facist patch as Hitler so you can CENSOR anyone's belief that varies from yours(at least in your imaginary world). You keep proving yourself more stupid and more pro-facist with every reply. Im guessing your around 12, ever since I read you talk about having a sickness in the pit of your little baby tummy when you saw Hitler on the website-even though a second ago on the site you were warned about possibly offensive material-which at least 5 threads here have asked you why you ignored the warning. Instead of saying "hey im wrong" you start whining about how evil Hitler is and that no one should play the patch or else their "evil". As you can see from all the posts in favor of the facist patch, alot of people are "evil" arent they?

Again, white people sticking together is white supremecy? You poor politically correct sheep, it must hard going with the herd all the time. Well maybe not, maybe its easier and thats why you do it-being so AFRAID of standing out.

Voodoo-of course their are some crazy whitist speakers out there, just like their are crazy examples of other groups. Finding one or a couple examples of a splinter group of people does not make the whole group absurd or wrong. There are many splinter factions of christianity that may be considered fanatical, does that mean you should start disliking all of christianity? Also again I'm not a nazis (no matter how some of the little kids in here would like to label people who go against you as that) and I have no idea who that speaker is you mentitioned.

On a civ3 note, I cant wait until the official patch is released, hopefully they have been doing something far reaching in the past month since civ3 was released. (multipllllllllayyyyer!) I dont think they'll make a patch with multiplayer but i can still hope lol (it'll probably be in an add-on they can charge money for).


"The wolf is not afraid of the number of the sheep"

 

[Franklyn]

Let's see if I've got this right, Chuckster:

You won't forgive Hitler because he "caused millions of my fellow germans, people I consider relatives, to die," but you'll praise him for ending unemployment and "was able to cut through the bs and get stuff done"?

If I wasn't so stunned by your lapse of logic and decency -- killing 6 million Jews is hardly an example of "getting things done" -- I'd say something nasty.

I'm with Giorgicus on this -- I'm sure a google search of "skinhead" would turn up some other sites more receptive to your views. With any luck, the sheer number of them might crash your PC.

As for the patch ... I've used it on Civ2 and liked being able to crush Nazi barbs. The website leaves me creeped out, which might be the point.

 

[Giorgicus]

Chuckster:

First of all, I know this is a long thread to review, but you misattribute a quote to me. I never said anything about sickness. That was someone else.

Nor have I advocated censorship or removal of any posts. To the contrary, I have only advocated free and open debate of the merits of the fascist patch. You certainly have a right to be ignorant, I only ask that you read my posts before you thoughtlessly flame away.

Debating the merits of a website and its patch does not amount to censorship. Censorship is when a government exercises prior restraint on individual speech or expression based on its content. Debating the merits of a potentially hate-oriented website, and its patch, in a free and open forum, is the antithesis of censorship. When you get a chance, look up "irony" in the dictionary.

I have not told you (or anyone else) to do anything here. In my last post, I stated that "there are plenty of skinhead/randy weaver/militia websites where your views are better expressed. I suggest we stick to Civ here." My suggestion to you (not even a demand) is a far cry from the "censorship" which you so easily misattribute to me.

While you are free to express your stream-of-consciousness (albeit off topic) views, I will never, never apologize for exposing the ignorance of you and your skinhead-sympathyzing ilk. As I quoted Justice Brandeis before, "sunlight is the best disinfectant."

 

[Scipio Africanu]

I find it funny that some people say how magnificent a Facist government is when they have yet to ever be subjected to ones rule. I suggest you move to Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/or any other number of the few Fascist governments left and see how much you like. Evil does not neccesarily come from Fascism but it is undoubtably a freedom suppressing government. I find it interesting someone so caught up in "internet censorship" would be willing to be placed under a governemnt that can stone or kill a person for speaking out of "order". I garuntee you wanna speak your mind a Fascist government is the last place you want to be.

How many idiots can this world shelter? and how many psycho's can be born? anyone that refers themselves as a "wolf" should at least be beaten wiht sometype of blunt object. But until I can hunt those people down I'll be happy with simply ousting them with words. Cause hey I can't speak monosolavickly enough for you to understand me supremecist *****.

Sorry everyone else but there's nothing I hate more then a Neo Nazi. To many of our father's died destroying their legacy in Germany for them to be tolerated by me.

 

[Toni1]

Scipio Africanu , none of the countries you mentioned are fasist. No such goverment exist in the world anymore.

Iraq is sort of 'fundamentalist dictatorship' where Saddam rules as total dictator seemingly under some pretence of religion (he has manipulated to people to believe that he's fighting infidel american's and that USA is behind all country's troubles).

Iran is 'fundamentalist' where religion plays huge role in goverments policies and decicion making.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship, where military has overtrown elected goverment.

If those would be fasist, then half of the world would be as well.

I dont understand why people get exited over this mod. There are plenty of strategy games that allow you to play as nazi germany and attemt to fullfill Hitler's dream of world domination and probably some who act shocked here probably have played some of em. They are just game's to be played for fun.

I dont understand this cencor bull**** either. Yes, fasists regime did many horrible things but whole history of humanity (even to present day unfortunately) is full of similiar acts that are at least as brutal as or even more brutal and horrible than nazi germany's.

 

[Leonel]

Oh come on guys, are we going to discuss the political correctness of game MOD's? Why don't we all just rip on Wolfenstein 3D and Return To Castle Wolfenstein for their displaying of the swastika?

Besides, we use many things today that were developed by the Nazis (jet engines, rockets, the Volksvagen)

Besides, I like this MOD. Well on Civ 2 that is. Sort of difficult to install it on Civ 3 but yeah. Though I'm not sure fascism should have the swastika as it's picture but perhaps have something symbolizing fierce loyalty to a leader or something like that.

Don't take things so seriously and don't be always in Political Correctness mode! You'll be happier that way.

 

[ComradeRed]

well, those may not be fascist governments but they still do exist. Israel has recently been pretty much that since Sharon got elected. Zaire (I'm pretty sure it was Zaire, formally the Democratic Republic of Congo, formally Zaire) has been recently overthrown with US help and a fascist took over. But 10 years ago Chile's Pinochet government was still in power (originally helped to come into power with the help of the US as well). Both of these had just elected democratically leaders that were civil rights minded, and called themselves "socialist". And then if you look at China, it's not really socialist or communist, some refer to it as state capitalism or whatnot, I personally call it fascism. The US itself keeps looking like it will go to qualify for fascism, but those bills that would do so don't pass through both houses. (recently the ACLU was concerned about a bill that would allow for phone-tapping and e-mail reading without reason in which any illegal activity could be prosecuted and dissent could also be recorded; the FBI had a huge file on Einstein for his leanings; the bill passed through the senate in a day, but to my knowledge still hasn't passed through the house).

 

[Wolfshanze]

Giorgicus, okay, I'm not one to name people directly, but since you obviously are WAY off track here, please go back to my website and READ THE HOMEPAGE DISCLAIMER.

If you can't read the homepage, please stop talking your nonsense.

Frankly, your "hidden motives of the author", and "hate oriented website" crap really has to go, and I'm putting an end to your slander here and now.

Do you think I have hidden motives to turn everyone in the world to Fascists by offering a GAME PATCH that offers the Fascist Government?

If you think that, then please start flaming Sid Meier for having "hidden motives" of turning everyone Communist by putting communism in the game... oh wait, Communism is okay with you, but Fascism isn't... that's really consistent.

Furthermore, the Fascist Patch website being refered to as a "hate" page. Please, for the love of God tell me EXACTLY what is hateful on that page?!?!?! Yes there are Swastikas, yes there is Hitler's image... yes there is the Horst Wessel Leid. It pretty much ends there... no messages of hate, no slander, nothing telling anybody to do anything other than play Civ2/Civ3.

Have you campaigned to justify the "hidden intent" of the History Channel, Id software, or Tom Hanks for starring in Saving Private Ryan? All of the above have images of the Third Reich and Swastikas aplenty on them too... so I hope you're just as disdainful of them as you are of my own "hidden motives".

For the record, as of this moment. I am typing to you from Saudi Arabia, as my happy little behind is serving your country in Operation Enduring Freedom, so you have the right to go about slandering me with nonsensical garbage about "hidden motives" and "hate" oriented websites.

Please cease and desist your slander... and NEXT TIME... read the freakin' first page.

It's a game... lighten up... I'm not converting the world to Fascism despite your looney ideas.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Fascism has no connection to Nazism.
Nazism is Racist Government that uses Terror and Fasicm to continue its ways.
The best example of Fascism is Fasicst Italy, FASCISM HAS NO FRIGGIN CONNECTION TO THE HOLOCAUST OR RACISM
If you can include despotism or monarchy in the game, fasicm is not less politically correct.
just dont friggin use the nazi's symbol, use the symbol of fascist italy.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were BOTH Fascist Regimes... just like saying modern day US and UK are both "Democracies", even though technically one is a republic and one is socialist.

You say Tomato, I say Tomato... both were Totalitarian regimes that were radically extreme nationalist nations.

To say one is Fascist and not the other is like the pot calling the kettle black... they're both one and the same.

Severity of attrocities commited are not necessarily a reflection on the form of government as much as the policies directed by specific people (ie: Hitler and co). Simply because Hitler commited more attrocities than Mussolini does not make Nazi Germany less Fascist than Italy, any more than an action in England makes the US less a democracy.

As for symbols, I used what is obviously more notoriously associated with Fascists... the Swastika... if you prefer the Fasces, it is included in the Fascist Patch as an option. Please download the latest version and read the install instructions.

People around here do read I hope... seems a lot of people would save a lot of trouble if they read what is out there!!!

(Install instructions, website warnings, etc, etc)

 

[IceBlaZe]

The Fasce is a symbol of fascism, while the swastika is not.
The italian fasicsm was born way before the german fascism by the way, and the nazi regime was not as pure fascist as the italian was, it included many other things.
And you can say that two countries are democractic but one is more than the other, USA is more democratic than Israel for example, both democratic, one is purely democractic while the other is also social.

 

[Enforcer]

Whinging about facism and saying that it shouldnt be in a game is basically the same as parents whinging about (and sueing in some cases) games companies creating violent games that 'cause' their children to kill people.

I think its sad

Personal freedom is a good thing to have.
You have the choice to do what you want, even if you choices have consequences.

If parents think that violent computer games influence their children, why dont they enforcer (hehe) their beliefs so that their children dont play the games. You cant whinge about something that you let your children do.

Same with a facism government in Civ. If you dont wanna use it, then dont. Dont criticise people because of what they choose to do or use.

History is something that we cant change. And you cant abolish something from history because you dont think its "politically correct". Your "virtual history" is just that, so if you dont want facism, you dont have to have it, but if you do want it, then you can.


*wipes forehead*

Ok if that made any sense to anyone, then my mission is accomplished



Enforcer

 

[ComradeRed]

On Italy, it was racist too, just not as extreme as Germany. The idea behind the italian fascism was to recreate the roman empire. There was a belief that italians were superior. Yet, they didn't make the superiority law per se. They didn't kill minorities, and there were some in powerful positions still. But there still was a racism which was strongly tied with nationalism.

 

[mfauzi]

I never liked Hitler any more than you do and I find the holocaust to be terrible event but history is just history. You don't change it. If you want to censor history, you're doing just like what Hitler did. Remember those book burning events they use to hold? It's the same.

If you can't stand the mod, just don't play it. And if you can't stand the swastika, do what he said, replace it with the fasces when you install the mod

 

[IceBlaZe]

I didnt say fascism should not be in the game, I just said nazi germany and the swastika does NOT symbol fascism even if they were half fascist.
About "racist" italy:
Every nation thinks it is the best, Every man thinks he is better than others, consious or sub-concious you think you are better than others.
Does that make everyone racist? Maybe. Can you compare it to what hitler did? Gimm'e a break

 

[Hitro]

Of course Nazi Germany was a fascist country. And of course it looked different from Italy.
Fascism is a strongly nationalist ideology, so the focus on national (also racial/ethnic/cultural) identity leads to much bigger differences between two fascist countries than between two modern capitalist countries with shared music, TV, movies, etc.
But they are still both fascist.
I think Nazi Germany should be the model forr fascism in CIV3 simply because it's the "best" known example for it.
Communism is also modeled after Stalisnism although that's wasn't really that what Marx for example thought about.
But as you have to choose one, you pick best known.

Considering political correctness: Who doesn't like it, doesn't have to play it. I also think the page is "a little" pro-fascist (precisely pro-nazi), in Germany it's even illegal to watch it (sh*t..committed a crime...). But as much as I hate fasicsm, I think it belongs into the game, simply because it exists and was/is a part of civilization (or something trying to destroy it...).

Btw, if you just play your fav form of government, only despots might start a new game...

 

[mercurycrusader]

Okay, I've been reading the arguements that have been coming from the dozens and dozens of camps in this whole discussion on Fascism and such, so here I am. I know I'm a newbie in these here forums, yada yada, etc., but whatever. My forum status has nothing to do with my intelligence. So...

I have nothing against the patch itself. I think it was made well and displays modern history, which we should all understand. If we don't, history will repeat itself. The only problem I have with the patch is the idea that "Fascism" and "Nazism" being portrayed as the same thing.

The Nazi party used a form of Fascism as a sort of piggy-back towards totalitarianism. Saying Nazi Germany IS fascism would be like saying Soviet Russia IS communism. I'm going to argue that Stalin was no more a communist than Hitler was a fascist, which I believe I am the only one that has brought this up unless I missed something through all of that reading. Now that I read more, Wolfshanze hit it right on the money saying both were totalitarians (BTW, thanks for making the patch).

Now, Socialism is state ownership and control of property, while Capitalism is private ownership and control of property. Those are givens. Democracies and Republics are more inclined towards Capitalism, while Communism would be Socialistic. Now, where does Fascism fall? Right in the middle of this. Fascism allows private property, but the state controls it. Nazism had both at one time, so in a sense, it was fascist. Keyword is "was". Later on, it restricted private ownership, so in a way, it was turning Socialist. That didn't stop Hitler from trying to exterminate the socialists and communists, though.

I wouldn't say Mussolini had racist or genocidal intent, but that's just turns into a "what if" question. Italy, or Rome, whatever you want to consider it, always had strong nationalism. Back in the ancient times, killing off Carthaginians meant destroying the civilization to ensure Roman dominance. Where was "race"? I argue that they never though much of race, seeing as how ancient Rome was always eager to accept other countries to expand their empire. I believe if Mussolini wanted to recreate the glory of Rome, genocide wouldn't be the real answer. Hitler thought otherwise.

Franco... Well, would he really be racist or genocidal? Spain has expanded so much in the course of history that "pulling a Hitler" would seem odd, as a significant portion of the world traces back to Spain anyway. All he did was crush opposition, which is what most fascist or communist rulers do anyway.

Now to Hitler. He didn't have blonde hair or blue eyes, so I don't know where THAT idea came from. He didn't create the Nazi party, but joined and became their leader. He wasn't even German. He was a guy from Austria that wanted to be an artist. Simply put, the guy is, was, and always will be crazy. A pretty idealogical guy for someone who didn't even have the credentials for his own views. It would be like, for example, an armless man wanting to mass exterminate all of the armless people of the world. Hitler was just insane, and most of you will agree.

There is a distinct difference between "nationalism" and "racism". I find it strange to pair the two, but it often is. This is mainly due to the impact of Nazism in the world. If I believed in "what ifs", I'd say that nationalism and racism would never be considered the same by many if Nazism never surfaced. And probably Fascism would never be considered the same as Nazism.

For me, the Fascist patch seemed more like a Nazism patch. Accordingly, I added the patch to my game (the form of government only) and renamed it "Nazism". The reason for this is because I believe that Nazism was nothing more than a totalitarian system. But that would mean I'll have to find a way to make Fascism fit into the equation. In my "Governments Patch" (WARNING: Don't download and install it. It sucks. Needs a lot of work.), Fascism was basically the same as the fascism in the Fascist patch, with the exception of resistance modifiers and assimilation. Since the Fascist patch's Fascism is basically the same as my version's Fascism, I'll need to work on differentiating them. It probably won't work, but a little research helps a bit...

I'm not a supporter of Fascism, Nazism, or Communism. I'm both a history buff and basically a Republican in my ideas. That doesn't mean I want the things I hate missing from a game like Civilization III that does a "rewrite history" theme. I want historically accurate references and such in my games. That doesn't mean I want things like America only beginning in the late 1700s or anything. It just means I want some kind of historical backing in my games. History makes my games more enjoyable. Making it out like the Nazism never existed in history seems out of place to me. Even if I do hate it, I want to know that it's there to at least crush. It gets tedious when I have to crush Democrats and Communists over and over again...

Oh, and my ancestory is split in two. One side comes from Austria while the other comes from the Philippines. Therefore, my view on "race" is simple. I don't believe in "race" diversity, and I believe that as time goes by, "race" won't be as "clear cut" as the politically correct people will want it to be. People are people, so why should it be that you and I should get along so awfully? Sorry, Depeche Mode stuck in me brain.

Summary:

* Nazism WAS a fascist movement, but soon became totalitarian. (arguement)

* Hitler is a psycho. (fact)

* Nationalism and racism are not the same. (arguement)

* Fascism and Nazism are different, though almost resemble each other, much like Marxism, Socialism, and Communism differ, although almost alike. (arguement)

* Lesser animals are tasty and money rules! (unimportant opinion, so ignore)

* Neo-Nazi's are just like Hitler: a lot aren't blonde, a lot aren't German, and a lot are psycho. (arguement, opinion)

* Hate groups suck! (opinion)

* Political correctness sucks! (opinion)

* Always relish in the history of the world: it's a model for the future. (statement)

And that's the end of my rant.

 

[Hitro]

Why do you say Nazism WAS a fascist movement and THEN turned totalitarian???
Fascism is clearly a totalitarian ideology.

Agreed on Hate Groups and pc

 

[Wolfshanze]

MercuryCrusader, I pretty much agree with most of what your saying, and agree with your points (on Hitler, Political Correctness, etc, etc).

As for Fascism vs Nazism, I know that "technically" there is a differance in terms, but in "reality" there is little that seperates them, both are certainly totalitarian, and certainly in gameplay of Civ3, there is NO DIFFERANCE, hence the Fascist Patch covers both under one.

Which brings another point... all these people adding in 3, 4, 5 or more new governments must be insane... though there are lots of differant types of governments in the world, as far as Civ3 goes, it is very difficult to have more than say 3 differant types of governments at any point in the game before the gameplay differance essentially disappears. The idea to add a ton of governments is nice, but the reality of Civ3 begs to differ the need for so many. Certainly trying to "split hairs" between Fascism and Nazism is pointless in Civ3 terms... hell, it's damn near impossible to define the differance in the real world.

Which brings one back to the original topic. There really isn't a differance between the two, and trying to say there is seems to just be pointless. If Germany wasn't Fascist, who really is? What is Fascism? If it's some idea that has never really existed, does it even merit saying it exists at all? Instead of Germany at one point being Fascist and moving away from it, I say quite the opposite, Germany itself defined what it was to be Fascist... much the same way Stalin defined what it was to be Communist... which of course brings us to another point...

We all know Communism as defined by Marx is nothing like Stalinist Russia... but when has there ever been in the history of mankind a "true Communist" nation? Simply put... NEVER. There never will be either, because "true Communism" is a pipe dream and can't ever be realized by the very nature of man... so what the hell is the point in trying to make a "true Communist" government in Civ3, when no such form can exist in nature? Ergo, I propose that the very definition of Communism in this world (in any real sense) was defined by Stalin, much the same as Fascism was defined by Hitler.

So, by it's very nature of how man is, and what we HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THE COURSE OF CIVILIZATION... Communism in the game should be and is modeled on Stalinist Russia, as there cannot be any "true Communism"... Fascism should and is modeled on Nazi Germany, for it truely is Hitler who defined what is commonly refered to as Fascism.

You could continue this onwards towards other types of governments... the United States is clearly a Republic, but is often refered to as a Democracy, and is clearly modeled as one in Civ3. So why can't Nazi Germany be labeled "Fascist" if the US is labeled a "Democracy", and Stalinist Russia is labeled "Communist"?

Finally, would somebody please answer me this:
Why is the Civilization Fascist Website labeled "Pro-Fascist", "Pro-Nazi" or "Hate" oriented... I'd like one solid answer instead of all the slander and insinuations.

I assume anyone who goes there can read... if you have the intelligence enough to read, and the inclination to label other people's work, I should hope you can comprehend the CLEAR warnings of the sites content and CLEAR statements that the site is NOT pro-Fascist, pro-Hate or anything of the nature... there is NOT one single message stating hate, NOT one single message saying "go be a fascist", and the site CLEARLY does not encourage anyone to do anything other than play Civ3. Does it contain sites and sounds of the Third Reich... yes... is it "in your face"... yes... did I make it because I hate political correctness... yes... but sorry to bust all your politically correct "lets point fingers and accuse others of being this or that" mindsets... hate to let you all down, but the site supports a patch for a game... nothing else... I'm not converting the world to Fascism... sorry to burst your bubbles... but it's not me.

Wanna go bash real Fascists, go to a real Fascist website and see the differance... I garauntee you, the differance is HUGE.