Fascist Patch for Civ3

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Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Fascism, while it does support the idea of a centralized government, does not entail leadership of that government by one man, thats Despotism friend.

This is not true. Every fascist regime entails the leadership of one. More than that, the leader, the fuhrer, the caudillo or il duce, as you prefer to call it, is believed to be the most enlightened of all. This extreme cult of personality reveals itself on many things, including art, propaganda, etc. This is unquestionable.

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Fascists are people who place loyalty and responsibility to the state above all else, including family, friends or religious creed. They do not inherently value strength above all else. To put it simply, Fascism is an attempt to instill a military like cohesive loyalty and fraternity to the entire "unit" (state), in essence to live for the state.

I sort of agree with you here. But, you are forgetting the reason behind this loyalty to the state exists: fascist believe that the state and themselves, are inherently superior to everyone else. And they often try to base this "evidence" in some distorted "historical reason". Roman heritage for mussolini, arian race for hitler...

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Again, just because the Nazis were called Fascists at the time, does not mean they were fascists in character. I would consider Nazism to be a more "refined" version of Despotism: unquestioned rule by a single individual, enforced by the army and/or paramilitary groups (i.e. brownshirts).
Look, I'll concede that Nazism definitely has fascist characteristics (nationalistic pride, military-like loyalty to the state, elevation in social class of the armed forces, etc) but Nazism has several other characteristics which divorce it from Fascism (a cult of personality around a single leader, persecution and elimination of minorities, etc).

Nazism is often considered fascism because in its essence NAZISM IS FASCISM ! As i explained earlier, the leadership of one enlightened leader and the personality cult is a fascist "feature". The para-military organizations, like the S.A. (brownshirts), or the black shirts in italy, is another "feature". The economic corporativism and the control of the major sectors of the economy directly by the state is present also in every fascist regim, including nazism. What distinguishes nazism from another fascist regims is in fact the persecution of jews. However, Italians, portuguese and spanish did discriminate africans...

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

As for Hitler being the best known Fascist leader: He is, if you get your entire understanding of Fascism from coffee-table books and the equally slap-dash popular press. But in truth, Hitler was a despot, not a fascist. Just as Catherine the Great, Stalin, Quadafi (spelling?), Hussein and so on were/are despots.

Of course Hitler was a despot. But every fascist leader is by definition a despot, because despotism includes fascism. If you want, fascism is a practical application of despotism, as it is monarchy...
 
Since Fascism preaches loyalty to the state above all else, the rise of an individual to lead the nation is inherently impossible. To be loyal to some "enlightened" individual contradicts the idea of loyalty to the body politic as a whole. How can you do both? The instant a cult of personality develops, the government ceases to be Fascist.

The leadership of one enlightened leader is not Fascist. By your definition, absolute monarchies are Fascist. Secret police are not a distinct feature of fascism, look at the former USSR and the "communist" China.

While fascists may consider themselves superior to others, this is true of any supporter of a particular style of government. Look at how US citizens boast the superiority of their government. This belief is not exclusive to Fascism. As for basing this on ""historical evidence", again, this is part of the arguements of any advocate of a particular system.

Italy and Germany, although known to have been fascist countries in pop-history, they ddi not conform to the theoretical outlines of Fascism. No more than modern day "democracies" subscribe to the theoretical definition of Democracy.

Monarchy is not the practical implementation of despotism. As a despot, one person rules solely because he has the power of the armed forces behind him. Monarchs rule because of blood and/or divine right.

Fascism is not synonymous with despotism.

As for dictionary definitions of Fascism: considering they were all conceived of during the early thirties and (mostly) the 40s and early 50s, their interpretation is false. Try reading actual research articles and other academic texts.

Of course the ever eloquent Wolfshanze will disagree with me....
 
For all you nuts out there, TWO more versions of the Fascist Patch have been released.

Both are fully compatible and based on v1.16f of Civ3.

Versions 2.0 and 2.0NH of the Fascist Patch are available for download now at the official Civilization Fascist Website.

Version 2.0 features an all-new (well sorta), improved Hitler for Germany, while v2.0NH has No Hitler at all, for those who enjoy the Fascist Patch sans Hitler.

Visit the site here (not for those with weak stomachs or loud mouths):
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm
 
Ooh, what a can of worms that one opened!

Get a grip kids; as has been said before, it's a GAME - you vs the various infidel PC players, and one that you are out to win, by whatever devious means possible. And if one of those options is a Fascist goverment, then, hey, go for it.

I have not yet tried the option myself (having just downloaded it) and I am new to Civ3, but I have played a lot of CTP (which comes with an in-built Fascist govt) and yes, sometimes you use it - especially when the evil hordes are beating up on you, and you gotta grab anything to keep yourself from going under - Fascism gives you a kick-butt unit, and massive production, but most other areas slow down.

When you've wiped the smiles off the ugly invaders and the dust settles, bet your last dime you aren't going to keep Fascism - no sir, first chance you get it's onto Democracy and all that personal freedom stuff.

So keep it in context - some bloke has come up with an enhancement (whether you object to the decor of the site or not) to a bloody good game. Use it if you wish, ignore it if you don't.

Now, I'm heading off to try it out...
 
It doesn't bother me that someone created a fascist patch for Civ III. However, fascism is perhaps the most abhorrent of all political movements only equalled by Stalinism. As a University graduate who majored in history I can see the validity of including fascism in Civ III. One of the subjects I completed was called "Fascism and National Socialism". Being from a Romany background I needed to (try to) understand the phenomena of fascism - particularly the German variety.

Roger Griffin wrote a great book called "The Nature of Fascism" (Routledge: New York, 1991). The book mostly tries to define fascism as a generic term, whilst giving a detailed history of various fascist movements and states.

"Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic (read - reproduction of ancestral characteristics) form of popular ultra-nationalism" (Griffin, p.27)

I think there are a few posts here that deny that Nazism was fascist. I disagree, Nazism was an extreme form of fascism. Here is a sort of checklist for fascism as a political ideology - again courtesy of Griffin.

Fascist Minimum

1)"The values and worldview which fascism embodies will be expressed not only in theoretical writings, speeches, propaganda and songs, but in the semiotic rallies, symbols, uniforms: in short, the whole style of its politics."
2)"Fascism will exhibit a utopian revolutionary aspect when attempting to overthrow the existing order but proceed to assume a reactionary, oppressive one if ever installed into power, even if some idealists will constantly seek to 'reform' it by narrowing the gap between the theory and the practice."
3)"The utopia which fascism seeks to implement will never be realised in practice, only a travesty of it."
4)"No matter how 'propagandistic' fascist thought will appear to those who do not sympathise with its world view. its most committed activists and supporters will find in it an outlet for idealism and self sacrifice."
5)"Despite rationalizations of the fascist world-view by appeals to historical, cultural, religious or scientific 'facts', its effective power is rooted in irrational drives and mythical assumptions."
6)Commitment to fascism can exist on various levels of emotional intensity and active support and its ideas will express themselves in various degrees of sophistication or simplification."
7)"Genuine support for fascism stems in each individual case from a largely subliminal elective affinity to it based on material and psychological interests."
8)"Though a fascist movement may appear a cohesive ideological community and present itself as such, on closer inspection its support will prove to derive from a myriad of personal motivations for joining it and idiosyncratic conceptions of the movement's goals."
9)"Fascist ideology and the impact it achieves as the basis is not reducible to the theories and policies of any one idealogue or leader, for it acts as a transpersonal historical structure whose emergence and success are conditioned by its interaction with other structures ideological and non-ideological."
10)"Generic fascism is definable ideal-typically in terms of a cluster of values and goals common to all its permutations, in other words an ideological core."
(Griffin: pp.26-7).

I hope this helps readers understand the nature of fascism. The debate on defining a fascist minimum still rages, but for my money Griffin's analysis remains the best. Fascism is a term often used carelessly. I don't think the fascist patch site is offensive as it only shows related/relevant images from the most extreme form/period of fascism - National Socialism.


:cool: :sheep:
 
Many people saying Nazi-Germany wasn't a fascist regime. I find that rather strange because isnt' that where the contemporary definition of the term came from?

Many more people upset about a website. I find that rather strange because the internet is full of material that is going to be offensive to someone, so it shouldn't be a surprise or affect someone that much. What I find even stranger is that they would come back here to piss and moan about it.

America is becoming like Nazi-Germany, but this website can say it better than I can though.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

And for the love of Christ, actually read it before commenting. I know the website name looks a little skin-heady, but it isn't that kind of site.
 
Originally posted by The_Ironman

And for the love of Christ, actually read it before commenting. I know the website name looks a little skin-heady, but it isn't that kind of site.

Well I read it and I have to ask, why does it state Afghanistan declaring war? Bin Laden is not an Afghanistan citizen as such but an international terrorist. He is not the Afghani leader, that is Mullah Omar.

As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celibrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes. Tyrants become obvious only when looking back, after what they have done becomes known. The German people did not stand up to Hitler because their media betrayed them, just as the American media is betraying the American people by willingly, voluntarily, even proudly, abandoning its traditional role as watchdog against government abuse.

The media is not as controlled as in German despot time, since we recieve critism about our own respective leaders. Is this a clever ploy to lull us into believing it is not controlled ? I don't know.

Nazism in the game is okay, but I'm still waiting to see if an official version of Bonapartism is made. We need a strong dictorial government which doesn't lose money in that time period which isn't fascist.
 
Wolf,

I have absolutely no problem with you distributing my custom Hitler leaderheads bundled as part of your Fascism patch (in fact, that was partly why they were created by me to begin with). Additionally, I am truly flattered that you consider it good enough to include with your own work.

However, all I ask in return for their use is the courtesy of a simple one line credit for my work in the ReadMe.txt of your download and on your website's description of the patch that includes the Hitler graphics.

I am sure you understand where I am coming from with this.

Thanks and keep up the good work,

ccm01
 
Originally posted by ccm01
Wolf,

I have absolutely no problem with you distributing my custom Hitler leaderheads. . .

:lol: :lol: :lol:

If I was distributing pictures of Hitler I would NOT want credit for it. :rolleyes:

Distribute Il Duce images instead. HE started Fascism, not Adolf.
 
This might seem like a simplistic assessment, but I would have thought most peoples problems come from the use of nazi imagry in the fascist mod, such images are powerful for a range of complex reasons and so shouldn't be treated lightly. Use of these images in the promotion of an item is, I think, essentially in poor taste and morally dubeous regardless of freedom of speach arguments.
 
CCM01.... ooops, my bad... I thought I already did that... I did update my links page with your website, and I thought I put you into the readme... I'll do that and re-upload the file.

My apologies!


UPDATE:
Okay, it's done now... you're properly listed in the readme credits! Thanks again for your excellent work.
 
I cant believe all the hubbub about this modpack.

To begin with its terrible. The guy who made it doenst know his ass from a whole in the wall about even and fair gameplay. Look at Kino's excellent post on page number one. Who the hell would want a modpack so ridiculously unbalanced? I could create a Facist government type much more balanced putting about 30 seconds worth of thought in it.

Nothing wrong with a Fascist gov in a game, especially a game about Civilization...But to create a webpage with pictures of Nazis and Hitler all over the place and create a ****ty modpack with tremendous benefits to Fascism...well lets just say you dont have to be very perceptive to see what this guys about.

I also thought your comment about communism and the Russians that died was quite telling. Did I sense a slight bit of Anti-Seminism? lol

Look I cant stand politically corrrectness as much as the next guy but this guys a joke and his modpack sucks.

He must be pretty happy though 115,000 people went to his website. I just dont get it.
 
So WHY is it unbalanced in your opinion? Or do you have one of your own? You don't back up at all why you think it's unbalanced.

For the record, the Fascist government type as depicted in this mod is VERY WELL BALANCED... a lot more thought went into the mod than went into your 20 second flame (without any reason).

The Fascist Government has more corruption, less science and less money-generating capability than Democracy. The Fascist Government has fewer free units, and an unbalanced corruption scale than Communism. Communism is CLEARLY better than Fascism in War, while Democracy is CLEARLY better than Fascism in Peace.

So why is it so "ridiculously" unbalanced? Or can you form your own judgement?

As for the website, you obvioulsy can't read, because you clearly missed the statements on the opening page.

Do you also think the History Channel is racist for showing images of the Third Reich (which frankly, are far worse than those on my website)... why not write Id software and complain about the clearly racist game Return to Castle Wolfenstein... the mere presence of images from the Third Reich does not make someone racist my friend. Or are you that short-tempered and near sighted? I suppose if you had the chance, you'd start throwing rocks too?

Also I suppose what you were trying (so poorly) to say is "Anti-Semitic", which means of or pertaining to the Semites, esp Jewish or Arabic. I clearly am NOT that, but then again, I'm not surprised your flame post was so poorly written and without merit. Whatever word you used is not part of the English language.

Now if you want to talk about the game and this patch and it's effect on the game, FINE... but please, instead of random mindless babble, please try and use some cohesive phrases that have thought behind them, instead of mindless rants. The patch is balanced, if you don't think it is, then please tell me WHY you think it's not, and stop throwing racial and ethnic slurs around, that's really uncouth.
 
Fair enough Wolfshanze. If your truly created an even and fair facist government type, and also the webpage is more of a attack on politcal correctness than your personal admiration of Hitler and Nazism then I believe I owe you an apology.

But lets be honest here. Comparing your website to the History Channel is quite a stretch. And of course the mere presence of Nazi material does not make one racist, but I can say with confidence your website does not merely have occassional Nazi references, and is much closer to glorifying Hitler and Nazism. And all just to battle politcal correctness? Lets just say I'm skeptical. Why be around the bush? So whats your opinion on Hitler. I'll be glad to give you mine. He was perhaps the most persuasive orator in the 20th century. He united a defeated country, (mostly through fear), and was in large part responsible for the armageddon that Western Civilization went through in World War 2. Was he as evil as the political correct amongst us believe he was? In my opinion Yes. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and Hitler deserves every bit of criticism he gets in his role through history.
 
I think that it's absolutely amazing that this thread is not only still active after all these months, but still flaming hot, as it were. I can't recall ever seeing any modder take as much flak for his/her creation as Steven has for his. If anyone needs evidence of what a pernicious, domineering, out of control monster that "Politcal Correctness" has become, they need look no further than this thread.

Wolf, for what it's worth, I think you've done a fantastic job with this mod. In fact, it's the only user-created mod for Civ 3 that I've been able to use extensively without growing tired of it. Lamentably, I suppose, that probably makes me as bad as you in the eyes of some your more emotional detractors.

At any rate, thank you for creating this mod.
 
Hey Minuteman if this is your best example of political correctness run amok, you dont get out too much. Don't accuse me of being PC, I am FAR over to the right politically and absolutely hate political correctness. But I'll also call a spade a spade and not sugar coat what I think. Members of my family died stopping that madman, and I'm asking Wolf a straight question. He doesnt have to answer...trust me I wont lose any sleep over it.
 
There are images of the Third Reich... there are swastikas, there are pictures of Hitler, there is the Horst Wessel Leid anthem. All of the above are seen and/or heard on the History channel.

The website's actual content contains no referances to Hitler's "greatness", no praise of the Nazi's, no words, verbage or inuendo telling anyone that they should be a nazi, or do "nazi things".

The only things spoke of on the website are of the patch, and the changes made to the game.

So please tell me in your infinate wisdom, why I'm "glorifying" fascism. Does the mere presence of sites and sounds glorify? If they do, I'd say the world is full of easily duped and influenced people. I'd like to think that people have a little stronger will than to think that if they look at a picture and hear an anthem, their immediately living in glory... if that is the case, I'll take down Hitler's image, remove the Horst Wessel Leid, and paste my own image on the site with the "Steve is great" anthem... then maybe everyone will love me.

Please, let's be real here... only fools are so easily duped by the mere presence of an image. I spoke of no glory of the Third Reich, nor repeated ANY of their propoganda. The sights and images there are no more than you'd ever see on the History Channel.

The ONLY text on the website is pertaining DIRECTLY to the GAME of Civilization. Yet you are still fond of pointing fingers and labeling people you've never met or talked to.

I am not fond of "Guilty until proven Innocent", but perhaps that's your mentality. Read any of my posts, and not one time will you ever here me mention being a Fascist is wonderful or anything to that effect, yet once again, it is so easy to point fingers and label people without merit.

Please cease and desist your slander, it's really getting old.

For the record, Hitler was the true definition of "Evil Genious" and I am fascinated by his rise and fall from power. He was a warped man and a monster, yet influenced millions. Fascinated yes... Fascist... sorry, not in a longshot. Sorry to disapoint you, but you can throw rocks at someone else, I'm not the fascist you seek.

I made a game patch, not a political movement. Go harass someone else.

P.S.
Thanks minuteman for your support... glad to know some people enjoy the patch for being a game enhancement and don't turn and twist it into some sort of political statement.
 
On the opening page of the website:

WARNING

You are about to enter the Civilization Fascist-Mod Site (Civilization II & III). This website focuses on adding the government type of Fascism to a GAME that covers important milestones and events in the history of man. Due to political correctness, Microprose & Firaxis (the makers of the game) chose to ignore the impact the rise of Fascism had on the 20th century. How can one have good without evil? This site is geared towards those individuals who care less about political correctness, and more about the inclusion of all history, good or bad. This website not only offers the Fascist Patch, but also contains images, sights and sounds from the Third Reich and other related fascist regimes. This is NOT a pro-fascist site, anymore than watching a documentary is, nor does the site promote any such beliefs. There are no images of death, and no insults or slurs... but if the mere sight of a swastika or Hitler is illegal in YOUR country, offends you, or inspires you to write flaming e-mails that tell everyone else we must obide by your personal views of right and wrong (which is kind-of a fascist outlook itself isn't it?), please go elsewhere and flee now to someplace safe!


NOTE:
This page and it's linked sites and files relating to fascism are not intended to be taken as the views or thoughts of the author...

"I believe that our most important mission is to make past history known correctly, to reflect on what should be reflected, to forget the hatred, to cooperate for man's happiness and the maintenance of the earth, and to teach these matters to the children of the next generation"
 
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