Fascist Patch for Civ3

[omichyron]

The entire debate over whether or not the Aryans were a warlike culture seems a bit off topic, not to mention unimportant to whether their mythology deserves to be associated with Nazi Germany. I think we can all agree (I hope we can all agree, I do not feel like arguing about this) that the Vikings and that most of the cultures from scandinavia during the middle ages were quite violent. On the other hand, their mythology has had a heavy influence on ours (to the extent that we can be said to have a mythology). Wouldn't it be a shame if some lunatic tried to conquer the world in the name of the norse, and this mythology was looked on in a negative light as a result. Just because the Aryans may have been quite warlike doesn't mean that

What a bunch of B**t ! Aryans were war loving barbarian tribes, which partially destroyed (it is not completly clear though) partially incorporated ancient Mohendjadaro-Harappo Indian civilization and mediterranian Crito-Mikenian civilization (Here they were called Dorians (spelling ?)). Their only advantage was chariots.

can be considered a valid response to someone's complaint of Hitler's use of the swastika. Certainly similar things could be said of the Rus, but there is no way that they can be compared to Stalin, even though their actions created the nation that that dictator controlled.

now look how far off topic I got....

 

[Shastram]

S3d, well it looks like either you have READ the Bhagwat Gita, or you saw this snippet of yours on a website. If you want to start quoting, I have no problem with that, I can quote you HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of instances in Hindu mythology where Aryans are shown as NON-VIOLENT and peaceful race. By the way, let me tell you what that SNIPPET of yours was all about (just curious, do you know what that snippet from Mahabharata is all about?). Mahabharata, the ultimate battle in Hindu mythology, the battle between Good and Evil. Krishna and Arjuna on one hand representing all that is Good, divine, because Krishna the supreme Lord himself is assisting Arjuna and his 4 brothers in this ultimate battle (Maha = Ultimate). On the other hand, Arjuna's own relatives who happen to be relatives of Krishna also (Krishna is an Avatara of Supreme Lord Vishnu, an avatara is the human form of a God) are standing in a glorious battle lineup. Warriors (Kshatriyas) that are renowned in the world for their fighting abilities with several weapons, they are amazing, they are the best but they are being forced to fight for their kingdom because their LOYALTY lies for their kingdom, the same kingdom which is under the 'evil' reign of Duryodhana, the bad cousin of Arjuna and his brothers.

I'll stop here cause this can get really long. Without knowing the full story, you shouldnt assume that YOUR SNIPPET represents the Aryan Culture or the Hindu Culture for that matter as in my opinion, these terms are interchangable. Mahabharata represents the biggest battle ever fought against evil and evil can exist in any form. Krishna simply wanted to make sure that Arjuna carries out the DUTY or DHARMA of a Kshatriya, a warrior (Kshatriya by the way is a cast, one of the five casts in Hinduism). Its a duty of a warrior to fight, its not only his dharma but his karma as well to fight against evil, whether it is his own family or not, but he has to fight. Now, warriors is only one of the casts mind you, we have brahamans also, the main cast, the top level, and they are NOT warriors, they are PRIESTS, HOLY MEN, men who worship peace and God.

So if you knew what story that snippet came from, you wouldnt base your assumption on the fact that Aryan race was a barbarian race. They were very very civilized! Probably you should read the mahabharata, you will learn something about Aryan/Hindu Mythology.

And there is no such a thing as "pre-Vedic" Aryas culture[/QUOTE

And yes, there are PRE-VEDIC aryans... after all, Vedas are Aryan Scriptures, to be able to write them, there must be Aryans BEFORE the Vedas existed, dont you agree? Very logical reasoning.


Any arguments on that? Be my guest, i love this discussion...

===============
Barbarians:

Wandering tribes without writing commonly called barbarians.

War-loving:
==================

oh and by the way, they had WRITING, THEY WROTE THE VEDAS, the MAHABHARATA, THE GITA, THE PURANAS, and nameless other scriptures, they invented the language SANSKRIT!!!! Where are you getting your facts from man??? Did you know that all the languages in Europe share the root with Northern Indian subcontinent languages.. and that root goes to Indo European language called: SANSKRIT.. you know which race invented that language??? Let me say it again: ARYANS!!! You know what historians study when they study the aryan culture? let me answer that for you: They study the migrations, modifications and whatever the heck happened to Sanskrit throughout the history of mankind.
Hope i'm not shocking you much here.. so please, before you argue or discuss on something, please get your facts straight, dont rely on some snippets that you may have read somewhere!

Shastram

 

[Shastram]

To Omichyron: (and party to S3d again)

You are right, the debate does seem off-topic. I had just mentioned that Aryans might be a good civ to add to the game but our friend S3d doesnt seem to know who or what Aryans were and he wants to argue that on his facts that have no ground what-so-ever! Just wanted to make a point. Aryans gave a lot to our civilizations, they might just be the craddle of civlizations and to have people think like that about their tribe.. calling them war-loving-barbarian tribes just kinda seems unfair. They were much more.. much better.. civlizied and religious tribes. In those times, war was a reality, every civilization fights for their rights, their freedom and good always fights evil. The allies fought the Nazis, should we consider the allies as war-loving bunch of barbarian tribes coming together to beat the nazis??? I dont think so.

Your last comment was on the dot. Thanks for that.

Shastram
p.s. S3D : Just one more comment, the bold comment that you inserted in your email: Killed you will receive heaven and victorious you will rule the earth... its based on the KARMA theory. You see, a Kshatriyas Dharma and Karma is to fight without thinking about the fruit of his action. If he does that properly, he reaches heaven...whether killed or not...If he is killed while doing his duty, he reaches heaven. Read up on Karma and Dharma as two important Hindu concepts (consequently Aryan concepts).

 

[s3d]

Originally posted by Shastram
S3d, well it looks like either you have READ the Bhagwat Gita, or you saw this snippet of yours on a website. If you want to start quoting, I have no problem with that, I can quote you ....

Shastram

Well if you think that Vedas were written (well they were written later of cause) during the aryas invasion you should read some more books.

 

[Shastram]

I think YOU should also read some books regarding ARYAN INVASIONS. If you still think that the eurocentric views of Aryan invasions are the right ones, then open your mind up a little bit, actually do research on it, and see if they actually did invade or were they from the area they mythically invaded.

I agree, Vedas were passed on for years and years using the verbal tradition, but you cant consider a civlization barbarian because they invented a beautiful language like Sanskrit.. and you certainly cant consider a civilization barbarian based on a snippet from a book that TALKS about the ultimate battle between Good and Evil... read more snippets.

Shastram

 

[s3d]

I should read more ??? that is not healfy

Ok, little chronology here :

1700 BC Aryan invasion and destruction of Mohenjo-Daro
1450 BC The first Veda written (Rigveda)
before 500 BC first Sanscrit writings.(well, may be couple of hundred years earlier)

You was telling Vedas were written in Sanscrit, arn't you ?

And if you considering Kauravs evil you have not read Mahabharata at all.

 

[Shastram]

umm.. chronology seems kindaa off to me! Historical debates my friend, Vedas were not written in Sanskrit? (its spelled SANSKRIT)

once again, you are still going on and on about aryan INVASION, DUDE! how many times do i have to repeat it, look at the other face of the coin, history does argue the fact that aryan invasion might just be a MYTH! They originated from Sindh and returned to Sindh which got coined as INvasion, there was NO INVASION. Do a search on Yahoo on ARYAN INVASION MYTH, you will see some interesting articles pop up. Man chronology can also be argued and debated because its based on the language, but thats not true, read some more on that also.. why do you guys have to close your mind after reading an eurocentric view of the damn history?
If the Vedas are written in Sanskrit, how can the language be invented or be written after? Think aobut that! Aryan language WAS Sanskrit.
Point your browser to the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/vedic_temple/hinducentum/q10.html

Read it.. VEDAS WERE WRITTEN IN VEDIC SANSKRIT

http://www.connect.net/ron/sanskritliterature.html

oh and these are once again, years or dates based on the study of the language pattern... these CAN be argued.

I am a hindu, not only have I read Mahabharata, I have read a lot of other Hindu Scriptures. KAURAVAS are not considered evil, i never said i considered Kauravas evil, i never even MENTIONED the word Kauravas, i said DURYODHANA was considered evil... if not EVIL, he was certainly considered bad, he did not rightfully belong to the throne, he made the Pandavas suffer needlessly, he go the kingdom by fraud and he did a lot of othe things that were not worthy of a Kshatriya of his standard. The Battle was of course his idea... should you not consider him wrong or evil, then the whole teaching in the Gita about doing your Dharma and Karma are in vain!

I am not going to argue with you on any of these points anymore, its useless. Your mind is closed. You dont talk facts and you are trying to pick on anything i have typed in my posts. I firmly believe that Aryans were NOT A BARBARIAN WAR LOVING RACE AT ALL. They were civilized people who were powerful, intelligent, scientifically and liguistically advanced. Their origins can be argued upon, whether they actually invaded or not can also be argued upon, whether they exsited in about 2000 BC or in about 5000 BC (as some history books tell about them) can also be argued upon, but your arguments are not supported. Are mine supoorted? I have read books yes, i am only talking from what I have read. Get your hands on this book: RETURN OF THE ARYANS, a historian friend of mine doesnt like the fact that the author doesnt have any SOLID historical proof for his theories, he said it's one of those books written by Indians to glorify their pasts! He is an Indian historian himself, he told me to go and read certain authors who give convincing proofs on their theories about Aryan origins. But in my opinion, Bhagwan S. Gidwani, the author of the book who consequently resides in Montreal Canada wrote the book after 20 years of ardent research. His research material: FOlk Songs, folk stories history books, scriptures, located or found THROUHOUT the Indian subcontinent till Europe. Folk Songs and Folk stories become very important in his research because according to him, as the history was orally transmitted initially, the poems written during that time period can give u a more or less idea of what the world was like that time. He presents his story in a fictional manner starting in the year 6000 BC. Yes its fictional, it perhaps is not supported with SOLID historical proofs, a lot of historians out there do give a somewhat similar account of Aryan history. SHould we not open our minds and realize that the original Aryan history written was written by European historians who had a very strong Eurocentric cultural background and Eurocentric views about Civlizations? Who would find it insulting to know that the craddle of civlization could be outside Europe and be part of some other religion than Judaism, Catholics or Islam? After all, Hinduism is a completely different religion, Arya Samaj is a completely different way of living! It is not arrogant or expansionist at any cost.

I'm trying to talk reason and not to throw flames at you. SO think about it and get to know the other side of the coin!

Shastram

 

[Wolfshanze]

Hanti... thanks for the support! I don't even know what all this other talk is about... it has NOTHING to do with the Fascist Patch or Civ3?!?!?!

 

[s3d]

(its spelled SANSKRIT)

Hmm, arguable point of view. That word transcribed to english by at least 3 way.

aryan invasion might just be a MYTH!

_That_ is a myth. Or at least most of scholars reciognize Aryan invasion.

If the Vedas are written in Sanskrit, how can the language be invented or be written after?

They weren't.
Vedic languadge related to Sanscrit, but is not a sanscrit.

I am a hindu, not only have I read Mahabharata, I have read a lot of other Hindu Scriptures. KAURAVAS are not considered evil, i never said i considered Kauravas evil, i never even MENTIONED the word Kauravas, i said DURYODHANA was considered evil... if not EVIL, he was certainly considered bad, he did not rightfully belong to the throne, he made the Pandavas suffer needlessly, he go the kingdom by fraud and he did a lot of othe things that were not worthy of a Kshatriya of his standard. The Battle was of course his idea... should you not consider him wrong or evil, then the whole teaching in the Gita about doing your Dharma and Karma are in vain!

Well, he was not a knight in whight armor, but the rain of flowered poured on his body after he was defeated by treacherous hit of Bhimasena. So may be he had some merits.


I am not going to argue with you on any of these points anymore, its useless. Your mind is closed.

Hmm, you aryan theory is not what most of people calling science.

 

[omichyron]

Hmm, you aryan theory is not what most of people calling science.

Actually, its not that dissimilar to what my world history class covered last year. Don't you think a new thread should be created on this topic? It is quite irrelevant to this patch.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Okay... this "conversation" on a thread is getting a little out of control... I don't even see the link between the Fascist Patch, Civ3 and the migrations and history of the Aryan race... this seems odd, even for me!

Could this back and forth discussion on the Aryan race be taken or started on a new thread someplace else? What does it have to do with the Fascist Patch or Civ3?

 

[Shastram]

You guys are right, we will stop the discussion here. Vedic language is called VEDIC SANSKRIT (i think you didnt read the two web pages i pasted in my reply did you S3d?).

Sorry to all who got bothered by the discussion on the Mythic Aryan Invasion and whether Aryans were barbarians (what crap!) or not.

I'll just make a last point to S3D, if you know Mahabharat, you probably know the Ramayana too, did you know that Ravana, the Evil Asur who abducted Rama's wife Sita was considered the most learned man in the Universe? Did you know that if he hadnt used his abilities, his knowledge and his intelligence in the wrong way, he could have been considered a GOD.. higher than Rama Himself! Did you know that his knowledge was considered so great that he was compared to Brahma in that sense?
Just because the story says that Duryodhana had flowers showered on him upon his death doesnt make him a Good person. He WAS bad because he DID bad things, maybe he was influenced by his uncle, but he still did what was NOT right... thats an interesting discussion, i should get on some Hindu newsgroup and see how many people (there might be scholars lurking there) consider Duryodhana a good person and how many ocnsider the battle of Mahabharata to be a battle between Good and Evil.

Once again, my apologies to all, I just thought it was unfair for the Noble Aryan race to be considered barbarians.

Shastram
p.s. i'm closing this discussion, with regards to Fascist patch, I hear that Firaxis is coming out with a upgrade to CivIII, an addition, hopefully they will have the Fundamentalist and Fascist governments in there.... who knows

 

[s3d]

Sorry to all for this OT thread, I was carried away a bit. So I'll not answer what I think about good and evil in Mahabharata, relations of Rakshas and heroes and of cause peacful or barbarian arian invasions.
Sorry to all again.

 

[omichyron]

Okay... this "conversation" on a thread is getting a little out of control... I don't even see the link between the Fascist Patch, Civ3 and the migrations and history of the Aryan race... this seems odd, even for me!

That's what I've been saying! I do, however, apologize for getting involved in the stupid argument even to the limited extent that I was.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Hmmm, yes, it's known that there will be an expansion pack of SOME SORT to Civ3.

Though the "official" contents have not been made public to my knowledge, I can pretty much assure everyone, Fascism will NOT be included in the expansion!!!

In fact, I DARE Firaxis to include it in the expansion (nay, TRIPLE DOG DARE).

Simply put, Firaxis has made themselves as clear as Microprose did before them.

Civ3 is a "family game" and ergo, to make it so, Fascism is not "fun" or "family friendly". Somehow, Firaxis deams that atomic weapons, Communism and 6,000 years of constant warfare is fun and family friendly, but Fascism isn't... go figure.

If Sid Meier ever intended on including Fascism, it would have been done LOOOONG ago... I made the initial Fascist Patch for Civ2 long before ANY expansion packs were ever released... it was VERY POPULAR all over the net, and one of the widest distributed patches for Civ2, and even mentioned in Computer Gaming World magazine... but after all the expansion packs that came out, Fascism was never included in Civ2... then there were the CTP games, both of which included Fascism, and finally, Civ3 came out... and did it come with Fascism as a government type? Nope.

So I seriously doubt it will be included in any expansion pack, but if anyone from Firaxis is reading this post...

I Triple Dog Dare Firaxis to make Fascism an official government option in an expansion pack!

 

[Anglophile]

First of all, since governments are so easy to mod, who cares if Firaxis adds extras in their next patch/add-on? Second, does anybody else think that the 'modern' governments are available too early, including Fascism in most of the mods where it is included? I added that bit just to stay within the official thread topic but it is relevant. Democracy comes way too early for historic validity. You can't really have a democracy if you have slaves (ancient Athens, USA until 1865) or a powerful monarch (GB until 18 something) or exclude more than 50% of the population (women, for those of you who don't get out much). So there was no real democracy in the real world until early in the 1900's and New Zealand would appear to have the best claim to being first. So I linked Democracy to electricity and both Fascism and communism have to come a little later than that. That leaves a huge gap - in time - between the ancient governments and the modern ones, so I added a couple of intermediate monarchy based governments to fill the gap - representing monarchy after the Magna Carta and the formation of Parliament. I realize that this is not quite on topic, although closer than Hindu/Aryan mythology, but I wonder how people feel about the 'timing' of when governments become available and what governments should be included - and fascism & theocracy seem obvious omissions?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well thanks Anglophile, we're getting much better on-topic than Hindu/Aryan mythology.

As for "who cares" if Firaxis makes it official, I personally don't really care, because I have included Fascism pretty darn well, and everyone else can modify it to their own likings if they don't like my interpretation. It's just in an earlier post someone mentioned Firaxis and the expansion packed and commented on the possibility of Fascism becoming "official", that's the only reason why I commented.

As for the timing of late-game governments, I'm not 100% sure if the modern governments come too soon or not. The only thing I believe in is that Fascism should always FOLLOW Communism, and not come before. To me, Fascism is often a counter-government to Communism, often born out of hatred or fear of Communism, which is why I made espionage the pre-req for Fascism, which means you need BOTH Nationalism AND Communism to become Fascist.

 

[Minuteman]

Steven,

As you've probably heard by now, Firaxis is releasing a new patch on Friday. I'm not certain if your mod will work with the new patch installed, but in case it doesn't, I just wanted to urge/encourage you to keep updating your mod.

As I mentioned here before, I can't ever recall seeing a modder for any game be on the receiving end of so many vicious ad hominem attacks as you have. So I wouldn't blame you if you just decided to save yourself the aggravation and not continue updating your mod. But just know that there are plenty of people out there, like me, who have used and enjoyed your mod, and would certainly like to continue doing so in the future.

So, keep up the good work.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Dang... yet another patch? Well, I'll definately update the Fascist Patch yet again to ensure compatability.

Like I'd ever quite because of what some other people think!

I'm the last guy in the world to bow to that sort of pressure!

I'll keep an eye out for the patch... write me when it's out in case I miss it!

 

[El gran capitán]

At last some hipocrit-less opinions. This is becaming an interesting debate.
Must the fascism be included as a goverment?. My opinion is, yes of course.
And I´m not fascist, I´m not racist, I´m not anti-semite, I´m simply pro-historical accuracy. The fascism did have a very important histrorical relevance. If the political correctness blind some persons, I feel sorry for them, get more culture and think it againg.
All the reasons about the tragic trascendent of the fascism were explained beforel by another well informated persons.
I must recognice that some persons here have defended the fascism as a viable goverment option, I´m not agree with them, but the fascism, as a goverment (not as an ideology) was very effective in some fields. For example, their tech developement sistem was even superior to the democracy one. At the end of the war, they not only developed the first V2 bombs, they also created the first reactor plane (the Mershemmit) that was NEVER shooted down, they started the first nutrition programs, they developed the clolour TV, a night visor for the tanks (at the very end of the war, they didn´t have much time to test it), and they had in project an atomic bomb that thanks God they never trew (the US did that for them).
About the stupid reason "buhu, is a so horrible goverment that musn´t be represented", I must say 2 things:
1-THe german fascism wasn´t the only one. All the persons remember this one, but there was also fascist goverments in Italy and Spain, and none of the made a "racial cleaning", even if they repressed all the internal opposition. As a significative anecdot, the Spanish ambassador in Germany saved a lot of jews by giving them "diplomatic inmunance" (and of course noone made a film about him as Spielberg did with Schindler), with the aprovation of the Spain fascist goverment and causing anger of the German fascism. Maybe fascist means "close minded", but this don´t also mean "bloody killer". The semitc hate was a characteristic of the Hitler´s Reich.
2-Too horrible?. Let´s take a critic look to the civilizations here:
Babilonians: THey were punished by God. What else can you say?
Egyptians: THey slaved the jews as Hilter did.
Zulus: THey are commiting racial cleanings in Africa everyday.
English: THey made a protestant inquisition during Cromwell reging, they broke a lot of diplomatic treatys, they colonizated the half of the world...
France: The french revolution were VERY bloody. Napolean started the first massive executions.
Germany: Well, we all know what they did.
Russia: Ask for the Stalinist goverment, or the Zar massive repression.
India: THey have created a second cold war with nuclear weapons with their neightbours (Pakistán).
China: Tianmmen, the red revolution, etc.
Japan: THey also had a fascist goverment. they used Chinese and Koreans for experiments during the WWII.
Iroquoise: Everyone has seen western films, right?. BUt they are not the worst ones...
Aztecs: They made human sacrifices in mass. A mini holocaust each day.
Americans: (...) Vietnam, Hiroshima, Nagashaki, the extermination of their natives, the Cuba war, the support to the south american dictatorships, their slave multinationals, Nixon... etc, etc.
Spain: Let´s be autocritics: THe inquisition, the European wars, the Franco dicatatorsip... etc, etc.
In resume: all goverments and countries all guilty of something. Don´t face it or don´t recognice it is to be hipocrit.

And finally, I must admit that the owner of the webpage looks a bit "fascinated" by the fascist stetic (even If I destest this goverment, I must admit that too that these b*******s had a real good taste)., but this doesn´t mean nothig.
The patch was well balanced (maybe I would have include less production and a science bonus, but anyway), and is a joy to fight against Hitler and stop him. Anyone dis/agree?.