lasombra1984
Prince
<--- no discussions. Cataphracts.
Cataphracts even look better than traditional Knights
Cataphracts even look better than traditional Knights
Favorite UU Part I
- Thread starter Darth Caesar
- Start date
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
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- 27,995
<--- no discussions. Cataphracts.
Cataphracts even look better than traditional Knights
Not when it's the other side that has them
.Fighting against byzantine in medieval w/o denying them horse or iron is serious hell and I avoid it at all costs. Fortunately the AI is pretty easy to manipulate for him.
Well, I agree that 1/7th sounds a lot better than 1/13th. However, the advantage is the same, regardless of game speed: you save 1 turn, at best. If neither worker needs the 3rd point of movement, there's no advantage (unless there's some bonus for unused movement points).
I voted for War Chariot (withdrawing from combat is always cool). The Quecha is boring, and is only "good" because of barbarians and the poor AI.
However, 1 turn means much more in Normal than it does on Marathon. It's a larger percentage of the game.
Anony1200
Chieftain
I vote Panzer simply because of how well it works in harmony with Germany's UB and how great it is lategame-when the AI has gotten to get a sizable stack of units in cities.
Basically,not only can the Panzer roll down Infantry and Tanks with ease-You get so many of them from your Assembly Plant that late in the game(And you SHOULD have them,they're a wonderful UB),that you can just roll down an enemy before he gets a chance to react.AT units are a snag,but infantry (or modern infantry) and artillery should be cheap enough to reliably spam-Remember?AP?-which makes it even greater.
Plus,remember the Forge still counts with an AP and Bismarck still has his traits.
I know what you're thinking."Anony,you suave man,aren't Quechas better for rushing that early in the game-Removing the need for panzers to rush lategame in the first place?"
Well,think again.Remember that a few civs-Like,well,Germany-start with mining,and can beeline to Bronze Working.If they find some Bronze around-And trust me,they usually will-Suddenly your Quechas are a little ineffective against large amounts of Axemen.
Basically,not only can the Panzer roll down Infantry and Tanks with ease-You get so many of them from your Assembly Plant that late in the game(And you SHOULD have them,they're a wonderful UB),that you can just roll down an enemy before he gets a chance to react.AT units are a snag,but infantry (or modern infantry) and artillery should be cheap enough to reliably spam-Remember?AP?-which makes it even greater.
Plus,remember the Forge still counts with an AP and Bismarck still has his traits.
I know what you're thinking."Anony,you suave man,aren't Quechas better for rushing that early in the game-Removing the need for panzers to rush lategame in the first place?"
Well,think again.Remember that a few civs-Like,well,Germany-start with mining,and can beeline to Bronze Working.If they find some Bronze around-And trust me,they usually will-Suddenly your Quechas are a little ineffective against large amounts of Axemen.
Quechua rush is generally early enough that axemen rarely show up. Besides, I don't think anyone, whether human or AI, would tech BW right off the bat in most normal game situations. Usually they tech whatever allows them to improve resources (Fishing, Agriculture, Hunting).
Also, I think I read somewhere that even if the AI has copper, it will continue to build/whip archers as defense. (Which is why some people on this thread have said Quechua is only good because of poor AI.)
Anyways, Quechuas aren't the only early UU, and certainly not the only UU that comes before the Panzer (actually the Panzer is the latest).
How does that make the FW any better on Normal than Marathon?
For instance, at Normal speed, a Fast Worker vs. a Worker both do the same 9 improvements (2 chops, 1 mine, 1 pasture, 4 roads, and 1 farm). The fast worker finishes 3-4 turns sooner, building the farm last. At this point, the Worker is still building his farm, so your advantage is +1 food for the next 3-4 turns.
Switch the game speed to Marathon, and nothing changes. The FW will finish 3-4 turns ahead, and you'll get an extra +1 food per turn advantage for 3-4 turns.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
because to paraphrase George Orwell , "not all turns are created equal" . 1 turn on normal is speed is far more valuable than 1 turn on marathon . Someone smarter than me may explain why better but as there are far more turns in a game at marathon speed , it stands to reason that a turn has less value
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
or think of it this way...........imagine you had a speed "ultra marathon" where a farm took 100 turns to build . would you still say the 1 turn of movement you saved on the fast worker was as valuable at this speed as on "ultra quick" where a farm took 1 turn ? obviously not .
now just apply the same logic to more realistic speeds and there is your answer
now just apply the same logic to more realistic speeds and there is your answer
plasmacannon
Emperor
Fast Worker on Epic and Normal speed. Any faster speed won't let you enjoy the early units long enough.
Quechas good early, Redcoats good mid-late game.
Conquistadors not up there - best horse unit - imho.
Samaruis were fun.
Hwachas - just because the Special Effects are just so cool.
For this list, I have to choose my favorite earliest machine gunner and Stack of Doom Killer
Cho-Ko-Nu.
Nothing like having Drill4, shock, formation, and atleast combat1 on Cho-Ko-Nus.
They can damage stacks of spearmen, axemen, swordsmen, pikemen, macemen.
Combat1 and shock gives them an 11.1 vs all melee units.
Add formation to make them 8.1 vs all chariots and horse archers.
And they recieve terrain and fortify defenses. So, fully fortified on a wooded hill adds 6 more to those numbers above. If they have Hills2 add another 4.5
So, if you specialize 1 as combat1, formation, hills2, and fortified as above, you have an 18.6 defense from an early unit. Send in the Knights, Cataphract, Cuirisers, Concuistadors, or even Calvary. It can take it.
And the defense is higher vs. melee at 21.6
There is a reason this is the longest continuously used weapon in history.
Have Fun!
Quechas good early, Redcoats good mid-late game.
Conquistadors not up there - best horse unit - imho.
Samaruis were fun.
Hwachas - just because the Special Effects are just so cool.
For this list, I have to choose my favorite earliest machine gunner and Stack of Doom Killer
Cho-Ko-Nu.
Nothing like having Drill4, shock, formation, and atleast combat1 on Cho-Ko-Nus.
They can damage stacks of spearmen, axemen, swordsmen, pikemen, macemen.
Combat1 and shock gives them an 11.1 vs all melee units.
Add formation to make them 8.1 vs all chariots and horse archers.
And they recieve terrain and fortify defenses. So, fully fortified on a wooded hill adds 6 more to those numbers above. If they have Hills2 add another 4.5
So, if you specialize 1 as combat1, formation, hills2, and fortified as above, you have an 18.6 defense from an early unit. Send in the Knights, Cataphract, Cuirisers, Concuistadors, or even Calvary. It can take it.
And the defense is higher vs. melee at 21.6
There is a reason this is the longest continuously used weapon in history.
Have Fun!
Which is irrelevant: you're not playing at different speeds in the same game.
Whatever speed you play at, your Fast Worker takes just as long to improve a tile as a Normal Worker. You can save a few turns moving, that's it. However, since you can improve tiles a lot faster than your population grows...your advantage is short-lived and probably never amounts to much (chopping being the exception).
It would still be the same. The extra movement is worthless in both cases--a Normal Worker would build the farm in 1 turn, too.
Fast workers are far better on quicker speeds, I'm not sure who thinks they are arguing what, but that's the statement I and every general consensus would stand behind. They don't make so much of a difference especially on a speed like Marathon.
And for Quechuas - I always go against praising Quechuas in principle, because really, it's just an accidental design flaw and exploit that makes them so uber. Quechua rushes are no better than a regular warrior rush, ie. often worthless, against an opponent with warriors, that's the end of the story, the AI never being smart enough to build warriors (and at high levels, starting with archers as a default in an ironic way) is just a mistake. Quechuas are actually a really great and balanced UU if not exploited - they work well enough against barbs and of course are basic and upgrade, but the whole problem with the AI is something I don't like to endorse.
Praetorians are the most broken military unit in multiplayer games undoubtedly though, and I prefer to recognize them for that, and they're not shabby just in single player either of course. Always agreed they should just go to 7 STR, retain the city bonus and regular cost.
And for Quechuas - I always go against praising Quechuas in principle, because really, it's just an accidental design flaw and exploit that makes them so uber. Quechua rushes are no better than a regular warrior rush, ie. often worthless, against an opponent with warriors, that's the end of the story, the AI never being smart enough to build warriors (and at high levels, starting with archers as a default in an ironic way) is just a mistake. Quechuas are actually a really great and balanced UU if not exploited - they work well enough against barbs and of course are basic and upgrade, but the whole problem with the AI is something I don't like to endorse.
Praetorians are the most broken military unit in multiplayer games undoubtedly though, and I prefer to recognize them for that, and they're not shabby just in single player either of course. Always agreed they should just go to 7 STR, retain the city bonus and regular cost.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
this example is obviously where the farm is 2 squares away so the movement DOES count . I`m not normally one to say "everyone else agrees so it must be the case" , but I`m pretty sure in this case you will struggle to find 1% of people on this forum who would argue that fast workers are equally effective on slower speeds .
DrPepper836
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2007
- Messages
- 134
For me (I voted FW), the benefit of them is that it allows you to move onto a forest or hill tile (but not both) and improve it the same turn that you move onto the tile. That, combined with the turns gained from getting from point a -> point b faster (which, I think, gains you less turns than what I mentioned first) allows you an insane number of gained turns from like turn 10 on normal speed (Or maybe less, I play marathon. Still like them though).
Also, they are the only consistently useful UU. No iron, no prats. No close enemy, no quechas. Tech lead, no panzer.
Oh, and who voted musketeer? They are so outclassed by oromos it isn't funny.
Also, they are the only consistently useful UU. No iron, no prats. No close enemy, no quechas. Tech lead, no panzer.
Oh, and who voted musketeer? They are so outclassed by oromos it isn't funny.
azzaman333
meh
Only if you disable Barbarians. Otherwise, Quecha are still insanely useful.
My point is that regardless of game speed, the result is always the same. No matter if it takes 1 turn to build a farm, or 6, or 20, you only ever get +1 turn of production on that tile over a regular worker. You're not getting a "free" turn, or an "extra" turn: you're getting 1 extra turn of production for that tile, period. And you're only getting that (roughly) 1/3 of the time (the other 2/3 you don't need the 3rd movement point).
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