Favorite Wonder -Ancient

[Old n Slow]

I think that ElephantU may know more about this with the recent activity at ‘Poly for Early Landing games. If I recall correctly, it takes ten beakers to research your first tech, twenty beakers for the second & +10 more for each additional up to 20 or so. Any “free techs” from huts or trades get added in, so if you research a couple (10, 20) pop a few huts & meet another civ & trade for a few more -- the next tech might be #7, (70 beakers) which could take two dozen turns if your three cities are generating a beaker each per turn.

At tech #20, the cost jumps dramatically. Afterwards, the techs have an additional marginal cost of +20 beakers each. Other modifiers (such as “kev civ’s” number of techs) add in as well just to complicate things.

But then again, the gains from trade include beakers as well as gold…

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

It takes more than number of techs*10 to complete your early research (before tech 20). It is number of techs * an increasing number between 10-17. One you hit 20 techs, the "other" number jumps up to 26.

In other words, it costs 1*10 =10 for your first tech, 2*11 =22 for your 2nd tech. your 4th tech costs 4*12=48. So in those early years, additional techs not only increase the number of techs in the equation, but they also give you a higher "other" number, compounding the penalty.

Then add in you penalties for having more than your key civ and it really goes up.

See samson's excellent research for the details.

In the Deity+2 succession game, we've got some pretty pitiful science, but we've traded with AIs for a bunch and gotten several from huts. Unfortunately we're now trying to research Trade, and it's something like 43 turns to complete a tech because we crossed over into the +20 realm. Sometimes you have to do it, but there is definitely a price to pay on targeted research if you get techs indiscriminantly like from the GL.

 

[ElephantU]

Tim's summary is pretty good, and the link to Samson's thread is the definitive detail. You also may not have heard about the KeyCiv; see this thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2683

Some practical matters:
- "Turns to next discovery" is really "total number of beakers needed for next tech" divided by "number of beakers you are researching each turn". You can find the first number by setting your Science slider to 0: the "number of turns" it displays is really the number of beakers needed (make sure you do not have any Scientists working in your cities when you check). The second number can be found using F5; you can manipulate it a bit by moving workers onto tiles that have trade arrows and by adjusting your Science rate versus Taxes and Luxuries.
- There is no display of exactly how many beakers you have already researched beyond the rough "bar" display on F6, which becomes unreadable after 5 or 10 techs. Keep a running total by checking F5 at the beginning of each turn BEFORE you move any workers around. Add to that beakers from caravan deliveries.
- Map size (S/M/L) changes the multiplier between tech numbers. For Small it is 20 rather than 26.
- Techs that you get before your first move at 4000BC are "freebie" - they do not count against your tech number. Same for other civs, so if it seems you have gifted everything to your KeyCiv and you are still getting a penalty, they may have started with more freebie techs than you.
- Tech "costs" in beakers go up with each tech you get, whether researched, stolen, won in battle, traded for or discovered in a hut. Between your 16th and 20th they start going up faster, and at 20 they take a big jump, then go up by the same multiplier (20/26) for subsequent techs.
- If you "skip" a tech, like trading for Wheel without having Horse, it does not count against you, unless you need Horse as a prereq for some other tech.
- Great Library will give you a tech when the second or subsequent player discovers it. So if one AI discovers Gunpowder, you don't get it right away. When the second one discovers it, or gets it from a hut or in trade, then you get it too. If you get the GL, you do not automatically get older techs that you have neglected to research. The next time anyone discovers something, or trades something, if they are the second receiver of that tech you get it too.
- You cannot control which techs you get from GL, nor when you get them. If you are just about to finish researching MonoTheism and get a suprise tech from the GL, the number of beakers you needed to finish will increase. If you are near your 20th tech, it will go up significantly. If you get several one after another you may see MT put off 10 or more turns. Very frustrating for the planner types.
- The GL costs 300 shields. Four Libraries are about the same cost, and will probably produce more tech gains for you than the GL, plus you get to choose the techs developed. Or you could say that the GL is six caravans, and early in the game each caravan is nearly worth a tech by itself, if you are delivering fairly far away overseas.
- Building the GL is a good diversion for the AI. Let them work on it while you shoot for Colossus, Shakes and Copes in your Super Science/Trade City. Same thing for Pyramids and Great Wall. Once you have your SSC going, pass by Electricity early and obsolete the thing.
- My personal feeling is that I get more tech trades, attitude improvements, and map exchanges out of Marco Polo than I would get out of Great Library, and again Marco Polo lets me see ahead of time what they have so I can choose what I want. It's also cheaper at 200 shields.

BTW, Florian, welcome to CFC!

 

[Florian]

Thanks all of you for your interesting and detailed replies. I'm glad this board is a living board, although the game is an old one.

I need to experiment with getting Colossus instead of Library, I guess. But not in my present game... On was Emperor level I hadve this huge continent to myself. No one to conquer, no one to trade with. It's almost 1900 AD now, and I still haven't SEEN a city from another civilization, except the few they've cheekily founded in my space in the past few centuries. With such isolation and so much land, I just colonized like mad, which gave me great potential but had me well-back in tech. The Library let me catch up and put that potential to work. This particular game, at least, would not have worked without it. The fact that the computer usually takes a long time to get around to building it is a bonus. This game, with all that frenetic colonizing, I didn't even have a shot at contesting the Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, or Colossus.

 

[ElephantU]

If you cannot find them, build Marco Polos Embassy. Its cheap, gives you access to intel on other civs, and by tech trading you can get what you want or need in your own time frame. Gifting techs can improve their attitudes too, keeping you out of wars, and Marco Polo makes it easier to get them happy enough to trade maps with you (works on Cordial, Enthus, and Worsh). They already know what the world looks like, so you are not giving anything away, just gaining an idea of what their empire looks like and where to send your trade caravans.

Sounds like you did not try to build ships and get off the continent. There is a bonus to delivery of caravans to "overseas" locations and foreign civs that makes contacting them and trading with them early worth while. There is also a bonus to setting up special "optimal trade roads" between cities joined by a trade route on the same continent, especially if the other city is a foreign civ. Sometimes it is worth it to let the other guys get a toehold on your continent, if it is convenient to make an optimal road/rail line from your SSC to their beachhead city. Garrison it as close to their city as you can, and watch for spies or explorers poking around. The bonus to your trade routes is big-time. I've got three trade routes to a size 6 AI city on my continent, each producing +15 trade arrows with just an optimal road; upgrading that to a rail line should put me over 20, and adding SuperHighways in ten or so techs should put me near 30 each!

 

[Florian]

This game was weird. The Sioux built Marco Polo's when I was still way back in tech, colonizing like a backward beast. And now that all that colonizing has paid off, and I'm the big power, everyone hates me, and no one will trade tech.

Usually I do make ships and try for foreign trade, but this time I had such a huge landmass all to myself that I had my hands full simply colonizing. All my trade is internal this game, and still pretty good, especially since I get both halves of it. This is by no means a standard game. I had about five times the land and breathing space to work with as is usual.

 

[ElephantU]

When your power rating gets to Supreme, which is chiefly due to number and size of cities, everyone will hate you anyway unless you have kept them happy on your way up. And if you are playing MPG, everyone will hate you no matter what. 2.4.2 is a little easier.

I'm suprised no other civs started on such a large land mass. Did you limit the game setup to only 3 or 4 civs? If you have spent too much time on expansion and not enough on exploration and research you may get a nasty suprise when your Knights meet some Armor and Paratroopers...

 

[Florian]

No, it was a full 7 civs. It was just a weird game. And when I got Apollo finally, and got a look at the map, it made sense. There were big landmasses all over, and just enough water to make it interesting. But I did get the biggest, and the first runner-up had 2 civs on it.

Early on I was worried about that knight-meets-a-tank scenario, especially when one of the enemy civs started building King Richard's Crusade before I had any wonders at all. But they left me so spectacularly alone for such a long time that when they did start poking around, I was ready. I felt like China in real world history: huge and insular. Only unlike China, my nation was guided by an intelligence from beyond the world, and so used all that breathing space to advance consciously along the path of civilization.

 

[ElephantU]

China is a fun one to play on the large world map, too: great starting position, lots of room to expand, and deserts isolate you from early contact with neighbors.

 

[talismanjayuk]

Its GOTTA be the pyramids!

I can usually find a use for any of the early ancient wonders!

Collosus and Hanging gardens are good for specific cities and great wall is good against barbarian attacks, Oracle would be better if effect lasted longer!!

No, its the pyramids for me! last forever and free garanrys mean no starvation in ALL your cities!!!

 

[The Person]

Pyramids are the best. It gives all your cities a free granary, and that should be enough.

I also like the Colossus.

 

[DasMan]

But Pyramids can compound unhappiness problems at higher levels especially early on. Much better to give your SSC a great boost with Colossus and if you delay Flight as much as you can, it's effects last a substantial time (and can be used conjuntively with Superhighways too!)

 

[United We Stand]

my vote goes to the hanging gardens... it gives you a way better start then the piramids, because you won't have to click away lands so fast. and come on ... building a gran doesn't cause that much time. although that wonder is my nr 2 option ^.^

 

[Achinz]

Colossus - mainly through my initiation into OCC.

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by United We Stand
my vote goes to the hanging gardens... it gives you a way better start then the piramids...

Welcome to CFC, United We Stand!

Hanging Gardens is pretty powerful: some players make it their first goal, especially if they are trying an ICS-type start. There is a trick where you build dozens of size 1 or 2 cities with NO garrison and HG converts the double-unhappy citizens to happy.

The downside of HG is that you need Pottery tech, which drastically increases the number of Salt commodities you will find in your cities once you get Trade. The number of AI cities demanding Salt seems disproportionately low, probably due to a bug in the demand for Dye and Copper. Someone patched the game once to eliminate the Dye/Cop bug and it seemed like the demand for Salt increased (I only tried a couple of games with the patched version, so this is not authoritative), but since the patch only exists for version 2.42 the majority of Civ2 players were left out and it was not promoted as a solution. Anyway, just so you know who to blame when you are stuck with a bunch of undemanded Salt caravans...

 

[United We Stand]

thanks for the explanation , im having that problem this game. i never knew that was the reason...

and thanks for the welcome

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

Might as well bump them all.

 

[Marx]

The Pyramids.

As Cathedrals, grananies are improvements I'll build in almost every city. They will save you a lot of building time. Time is money.. Money is power and you need power to win games.

 

[Ravena]

I like the Great Wall early on. I know that it eventually becomes irrelevant but it gives your civilization some great advantages over others earlier if you play very aggressively--they hate your guts but can't do anything about it

 

[Fundamentality]

Hanging Gardens since they will keep it a bit easier to maintain happiness