[Feature] Additional Wonders

[Publicola]

• Kilwa Kisiwani/Stone Town (Companies, Islam, Ivory, coast): +50% production towards lighthouses, wharfs, and markets in all cities; +2 trade routes in this city

I'd really like a Swahili wonder, but I really dislike the tendency of Civ 5 and 6 to treat entire cities as wonders. 'Petra' is borderline but okay, since the name of the city is so often confused with the 'Al-Khazneh' edifice. But 'Jebel Barkal' is merely the small mountain next to the city of Napata, capital of Kingdom of Kush. Worse still, Ruhr Valley is an entire region filled with cities -- that's like making the U.S. 'Rust Belt' into a wonder).

Anyway, Kilwa Kisiwani was a city, the capital of the Kilwa Sultanate and one of the biggest centers of Swahili culture for hundreds of years. If we're going to add a Swahili wonder, I'd prefer it be the Husuni Kubwa -- the fortress-palace built by the greatest of Kilwa sultans, at the heart of his capital.

 

[trevor]

To be fair though, it is a district in Zanzibar so the model could follow the same layout as the one for the Public Transit building. We've also got a lot of palaces & forts as great wonders & it'd be nice change of pace to have a wonder be an example of urbanism.

I may be partial as I had an urban planning professor in grad school who did his doctorate on Stone Town & worked on it's UNESCO application.

 

[Krieger-FS]

Giving our recent discussions in the Suggestions and Requests thread, I’ll necromance this thread to propose some possible Wonders.

Steb’s overview shows a lack of Wonders for Africa in general (except Egypt) and that currently only two civs don’t have a “personal” wonder: Harappa and Argentina. So, I decided to give a shot with some suggestions:

Floralis Genérica
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Artist (3)
Great People Points: Great Artist (+2)
Special Effect: Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve and Solar Collector +2; + 2 Relations with civs with Public Welfare or +1 Happiness to Recycling Center, Solar Plant and Park.
Unlocked by: Ecology
Special Requirements: Public Welfare civic
Production: 1000 , double production with Iron or Aluminum
Obsolete:

Great Adobe Mosque
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Priest (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Floodplain and Marsh tiles produces +1 and +1
Unlocked by: Theology
Special Requirements: Islam, Marsh tile within city radius
Production: 360 , double production with Ivory?
Obsolete: Urban Planning

Fasil Ghebbi
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Statesman (1); Engineer (1)
Great People Points: Great Statesman (+2)
Special Effect: +25% defense in core cities; can only collapse to the core or Military Units receive 10% inside cultural borders
Unlocked by: Statecraft
Special Requirements: Orthodoxy, Incense
Production: 800 , double production with Stone
Obsolete: Assembly Line

Hassan Tower
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Priest (1), Merchant (1)
Great People Points: Great Merchant (+2)
Special Effect: New Naval Units receive +2 exp; 25% chance of capturing enemy naval units
Unlocked by: Patronage or Compass
Special Requirements: Islam
Production: 560
Obsolete: Nationalism

Mosque of Uqba
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Priest (1), Scientist (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Reduces maintenence of nearby cities; faster culture conversion; Priests produce +1 or double production to Monasteries
Unlocked by: Architecture
Special Requirements: Islam, City in a different continent than the capital
Production: 260 hammers, double production with Stone
Obsolete: Education

Meenakshi Temple
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Priest (2); Merchant (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Priests produce +1; double value for Trade Routes in the city
Unlocked by: Patronage
Special Requirements: Hinduism
Production: 600
Obsolete:

Stave Church
Base Yield: +2
Specialist Slots: Priest (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Double from pillaging
Unlocked by: Compass or Paper
Special Requirements: Catholicism, Whale
Production: 260
Obsolete: Urban Planning

Great Bath
Base Yield: +4 ; +2
Specialist Slots:
Great People Points: Great Engineer (+2)
Special Effect: Double production for Health buildings
Unlocked by: Masonry
Special Requirements: Paganism, No major religion present
Production: 120
Obsolete: Medicine

Ulugh Beg Observatory
Base Yield: +2; +30%
Specialist Slots: Scientist (2)
Great People Points: Great Scientist (+2)
Special Effect:
Unlocked by: Cartography
Special Requirements: Islam
Production: 480
Obsolete: Scientific Method

AFAIK, we have art assets for all proposed wonders except Fasil Ghebbi.

 

[freethink]

Is there a way the Stave Church could be required to be built in a nation that has Asatru as its native/pagan religion? As the Stave Church has many pre-Christan motifs? I like these inclusions otherwise, and I am especially happy about the inclusion of the Great Bath!

 

[Steb]

Giving our recent discussions in the Suggestions and Requests thread, I’ll necromance this thread to propose some possible Wonders.

Steb’s overview shows a lack of Wonders for Africa in general (except Egypt) and that currently only two civs don’t have a “personal” wonder: Harappa and Argentina. So, I decided to give a shot with some suggestions:

Floralis Genérica
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Artist (3)
Great People Points: Great Artist (+2)
Special Effect: Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve and Solar Collector +2; + 2 Relations with civs with Public Welfare or +1 Happiness to Recycling Center, Solar Plant and Park.
Unlocked by: Ecology
Special Requirements: Public Welfare civic
Production: 1000 , double production with Iron or Aluminum
Obsolete:

Great Adobe Mosque
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Priest (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Flodplain and Marsh tiles produces +1 and +1
Unlocked by: Theology
Special Requirements: Islam, Marsh tile within city radius
Production: 360 , double production with Ivory?
Obsolete: Urban Planning

Fasil Ghebbi
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Statesman (1); Engineer (1)
Great People Points: Great Statesman (+2)
Special Effect: +25% defense in core cities; can only collapse to the core or Military Units receive 10% inside cultural borders
Unlocked by: Statecraft
Special Requirements: Orthodoxy, Incense
Production: 800 , double production with Stone
Obsolete: Assembly Line

Hassan Tower
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Priest (1), Merchant (1)
Great People Points: Great Merchant (+2)
Special Effect: New Naval Units receive +2 exp; 25% chance of capturing enemy naval units
Unlocked by: Patronage or Compass
Special Requirements: Islam
Production: 560
Obsolete: Nationalism

Mosque of Uqba
Base Yield: +4
Specialist Slots: Priest (1), Scientist (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Reduces maintenence of nearby cities; faster culture conversion; Priests produce +1 or double production to Monasteries
Unlocked by: Architecture
Special Requirements: Islam, City in a different continent than the capital
Production: 260 hammers, double production with Stone
Obsolete: Education

Meenakshi Temple
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Priest (2); Merchant (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Priests produce +1; double value for Trade Routes in the city
Unlocked by: Patronage
Special Requirements: Hinduism
Production: 600
Obsolete:

Stave Church
Base Yield: +2
Specialist Slots: Priest (1)
Great People Points: Great Prophet (+2)
Special Effect: Double from pillaging
Unlocked by: Compass or Paper
Special Requirements: Catholicism, Whale
Production: 260
Obsolete: Urban Planning

Great Bath
Base Yield: +4 ; +2
Specialist Slots:
Great People Points: Great Engineer (+2)
Special Effect: Double production for Health buildings
Unlocked by: Masonry
Special Requirements: Paganism, No major religion present
Production: 120
Obsolete: Medicine

Ulugh Beg Observatory
Base Yield: +2; +30%
Specialist Slots: Scientist (2)
Great People Points: Great Scientist (+2)
Special Effect:
Unlocked by: Cartography
Special Requirements: Islam
Production: 480
Obsolete: Scientific Method

AFAIK, we have art assets for all proposed wonders except Fasil Ghebbi.

I like these a lot, but I want to voice special support for the inclusion of the Meenakshi Temple. We don't actually have any Tamil wonder at the moment. The closest thing is the Jetavanaramaya, coded as Tamil because it's in the Tamil sphere of influence in Sri Lanka. But it was built by the Anuradhapura kingdom, which was ethnically Sinhalese, not Tamil; religiously Buddhist, not Hindu; and linguistically Indo-Aryan, not Dravidian.

We also have fewer Hindu temple wonders than I thought. The only one in the Indian subcontinent (besides the Hindu shrine) is Khajuraho. Southeast Asia further has the Prambanan and Wat Preah Pisnulok. All of these are from before the 11th century. So a Hindu temple that represents the unique Dravidian architecture, the Tamils, and early modern Hindu architecture (the current Meenakshi Temple was build in the 16th-17th centuries) would be a welcome addition to the mod's roster of wonders.

 

[freethink]

I like these a lot, but I want to voice special support for the inclusion of the Meenakshi Temple. We don't actually have any Tamil wonder at the moment. The closest thing is the Jetavanaramaya, coded as Tamil because it's in the Tamil sphere of influence in Sri Lanka. But it was built by the Anuradhapura kingdom, which was ethnically Sinhalese, not Tamil; religiously Buddhist, not Hindu; and linguistically Indo-Aryan, not Dravidian.

We also have fewer Hindu temple wonders than I thought. The only one in the Indian subcontinent (besides the Hindu shrine) is Khajuraho. Southeast Asia further has the Prambanan and Wat Preah Pisnulok. All of these are from before the 11th century. So a Hindu temple that represents the unique Dravidian architecture, the Tamils, and early modern Hindu architecture (the current Meenakshi Temple was build in the 16th-17th centuries) would be a welcome addition to the mod's roster of wonders.

I would like to add something here, shouldn't the Meenakshi temple be rebuildable if destroyed or associated with great generals? As it was the center of the largest Islamic-Hindu religious war and was rebuilt after destruction?

 

[Steb]

I would like to add something here, shouldn't the Meenakshi temple be rebuildable if destroyed or associated with great generals? As it was the center of the largest Islamic-Hindu religious war and was rebuilt after destruction?

Not sure it's worth getting into this level of detail — lots of other wonders were destroyed or rebuilt in various circumstances and we don't make a big deal out of it — but that could serve as inspiration for a cool effect.

 

[freethink]

Not sure it's worth getting into this level of detail — lots of other wonders were destroyed or rebuilt in various circumstances and we don't make a big deal out of it — but that could serve as inspiration for a cool effect.

+10% military production? or provides happiness bonus when civ is at war with other religion?

 

[Krieger-FS]

Is there a way the Stave Church could be required to be built in a nation that has Asatru as its native/pagan religion? As the Stave Church has many pre-Christan motifs?

That's part of this wonder charm and what make it unique. But I really don't know if it is possible to add this requirement and even if we do it may be too much railroaded for the Vikings. The Whale resource requirement should ensure that it will be mostly built by them, but if you guys think about other ideas, I'd love to hear.

We also have fewer Hindu temple wonders than I thought. The only one in the Indian subcontinent (besides the Hindu shrine) is Khajuraho. Southeast Asia further has the Prambanan and Wat Preah Pisnulok. All of these are from before the 11th century. So a Hindu temple that represents the unique Dravidian architecture, the Tamils, and early modern Hindu architecture (the current Meenakshi Temple was build in the 16th-17th centuries) would be a welcome addition to the mod's roster of wonders.

Agreed. There is also the Vijaya Stambha in India, but most of later wonders are Mughal ones. I suspect that we may see new Hindu wonders after the new map with possible new Indian civs. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear more ideas, because I honestly know quite little about the Indian subcontinent. Maybe the Konark Sun Temple could be another fine addition?

 

[Steb]

Agreed. There is also the Vijaya Stambha in India, but most of later wonders are Mughal ones. I suspect that we may see new Hindu wonders after the new map with possible new Indian civs. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear more ideas, because I honetly know quite little about the Indian subcontinent. Maybe the Konark Sun Temple could be another fine addition?

The Vijaya Stambha is a military monument, not a temple! And I don't think it's worth adding temples just for the sake of adding temples. But southern Indian architecture needs some sort of representation.

Somewhat relatedly, I was counting the Buddhist temple wonders for comparison, and I realized that there's one that doesn't require Buddhism at the moment: the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing. It was a Buddhist pagoda, so if possible I think it should require Buddhism in the city instead of, or in addition to, Confucianism/Taoism.

 

[freethink]

The Vijaya Stambha is a military monument, not a temple! And I don't think it's worth adding temples just for the sake of adding temples. But southern Indian architecture needs some sort of representation.

Somewhat relatedly, I was counting the Buddhist temple wonders for comparison, and I realized that there's one that doesn't require Buddhism at the moment: the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing. It was a Buddhist pagoda, so if possible I think it should require Buddhism in the city instead of, or in addition to, Confucianism/Taoism.

But the Buddhism in China has unique Chinese influences, if its given to Buddhism the Tower will almost certainly not be built in China, and I think it was meant to show how Mercantilism profited China in the Ming Dynasty. Would it be possible that the wonder require the presence of both religions in the city?

 

[Steb]

But the Buddhism in China has unique Chinese influences, if its given to Buddhism the Tower will almost certainly not be built in China, and I think it was meant to show how Mercantilism profited China in the Ming Dynasty. Would it be possible that the wonder require the presence of both religions in the city?

You could require that the state religion is Confucianism/Taoism, as is already the case. On the other hand, I think a Buddhist China should still be able to build the Chinese wonders, so I would personally add Buddhism as an alternative state religion requirement for the pagoda and the other wonders. In any case we should accept that wonders can and should be buildable in civilizations other than the "canonical" one.

 

[Dracosolon]

Is there a way the Stave Church could be required to be built in a nation that has Asatru as its native/pagan religion? As the Stave Church has many pre-Christan motifs? I like these inclusions otherwise, and I am especially happy about the inclusion of the Great Bath!

I don't think that's possible because Pagan religions are more cosmetic than mechanical. And anyway lots of current religious wonders have pagan influences to them. Whale (or Fur, if you want a less restrictive requirement) should make the Vikings the prime candidate for building it too.

You could require that the state religion is Confucianism/Taoism, as is already the case. On the other hand, I think a Buddhist China should still be able to build the Chinese wonders, so I would personally add Buddhism as an alternative state religion requirement for the pagoda and the other wonders. In any case we should accept that wonders can and should be buildable in civilizations other than the "canonical" one.

Maybe just the presence of Buddhism + (Confucianism or Taoism), then.

 

[Cacaso]

Some wonder suggestions for the Latin American region.

Plaza Libertad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Salvador#Plaza_Libertad
Base Yield: +6
Specialist Slots: Statesman (2)
Great People Points: Great Statesman (+2)
Special Effect:
- Great Statesman can lead troops and give 20 XP to land units. Great Generals gain some of the powers of a Great Statesman (reform government, settle as a "great statesman" super expert, boost research as if he were a great statesman, EXCEPT being able to start the Golden Age or build the Unique Building Administrative Center).

MAYBE - +2 Attitude towards leaders of Civs who gained their independence from the same European Civ OR +2 Attitude towards leaders of Civs who gained their independence from some European Civ

MAYBE - Liberate cities to other Civs through military conquest generates more positive attitude.

Unlocked by: Statecraft
Special Requirements: Catholicism
Production: 1000 , double production with Stone
Obsolete: Civil rights

As in the history of Latin America many generals were statesmen who fought for the independence of their people, I think it would be very interesting to allow the Great Statesman Unit to lead troops. And as many of these generals became presidents or political notables in their countries I think it would be interesting to give the great general some of the powers of a great statesman unit, but not the power to start GA or build the administrative center otherwise wonder will get very overpower.

It was built in 1911. The actual location of this square is in San Salvador, capital of El Salvador in Central America, . But I believe that wonder would fit perfectly in Civs like Gran Colombia, Argentina, or maybe even mexico, peru, chile (if added).


Mint de Potosí - (Silver Foundry in Bolivia)
Effect - Maybe give a silver resource with a mine on a tile mountain adjacent to the city center.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potosí
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potos...livia_1409_crop_Potosí_sRGB_(26204037299).jpg

Teatro Cristóbal Colón - (Theatre in Bogotá, Colombia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatro_de_Cristóbal_Colón

 

[Temujin8k]

Statecraft is too early for an early 1900's wonder. Not sure if it can be a late Industrial (column 15) or early Global wonder (column 16), since the Latin American civs tech up a bit more slowly. Journalism or another tech on that column can be a more attainable option.

 

[Leoreth]

Is there a way the Stave Church could be required to be built in a nation that has Asatru as its native/pagan religion? As the Stave Church has many pre-Christan motifs?

Not really, that would just hardcode this wonder to Vikings and iirc Holy Rome and Germany. Many wonders feature cultural motifs but can be built by everyone, even if its requirements encourage the "correct" builder.

I like these a lot, but I want to voice special support for the inclusion of the Meenakshi Temple. We don't actually have any Tamil wonder at the moment. The closest thing is the Jetavanaramaya, coded as Tamil because it's in the Tamil sphere of influence in Sri Lanka. But it was built by the Anuradhapura kingdom, which was ethnically Sinhalese, not Tamil; religiously Buddhist, not Hindu; and linguistically Indo-Aryan, not Dravidian.

We also have fewer Hindu temple wonders than I thought. The only one in the Indian subcontinent (besides the Hindu shrine) is Khajuraho. Southeast Asia further has the Prambanan and Wat Preah Pisnulok. All of these are from before the 11th century. So a Hindu temple that represents the unique Dravidian architecture, the Tamils, and early modern Hindu architecture (the current Meenakshi Temple was build in the 16th-17th centuries) would be a welcome addition to the mod's roster of wonders.

Yes, you are definitely correct about the lack of Hindu wonders, especially from the medieval period and later. Part of the reason is that I did not want to just stack even more wonders for the Indian civ, which already has a good deal of them. However, another reason is that I do not want to include Hindu temples just for the sake of having more temples. It would be bad if wonders felt like they are just another temple complex with little distinguishing them. It's similar with Europe where I am cautious to turn every cathedral into a wonder. Also, temples often suggest religious effects and I think we are almost out of "religion also gives this bonus" type effects.

That said, I definitely want to find more wonders, and being from a different time period is a good argument for inclusion. To be quite honest, we are currently a bit inconsistent about where to locate wonders that were built and rebuilt multiple times on the timeline: for instance, the current Shwedagon Pagoda is also from the 15-16th century but we currently treat it as an early medieval wonder.

I generally like the Meenakshi Temple and the Konark Sun Temple suggestions here. But another thing I would like to highlight in connection with the argument that we should have a genuine Tamil wonder is Vijayanagara. This is a hugely important chapter in Indian history and the mod currently does too little to represent it. At some point in the future, I would like to retool the Tamil civilization into a broader Dravidian civilization so that it can better represent all of South Indian history and include Vijayanagara more explicitly. Especially considering the site of its capital is known for its monuments, and probably was the second largest city in the world at its height.

Not sure it's worth getting into this level of detail — lots of other wonders were destroyed or rebuilt in various circumstances and we don't make a big deal out of it — but that could serve as inspiration for a cool effect.

Yeah, my first thought upon seeing that suggestion was letting Great Generals rush wonders. That probably wouldn't be a good idea though, due to the lack of other wonders to rush.

The Vijaya Stambha is a military monument, not a temple! And I don't think it's worth adding temples just for the sake of adding temples. But southern Indian architecture needs some sort of representation.

Somewhat relatedly, I was counting the Buddhist temple wonders for comparison, and I realized that there's one that doesn't require Buddhism at the moment: the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing. It was a Buddhist pagoda, so if possible I think it should require Buddhism in the city instead of, or in addition to, Confucianism/Taoism.

True, it should be Confucian/Taoist state religion plus Buddhist city religion. I hope that works out though, I would need to review if Buddhism is actually present enough in China to make that work. We don't want to accidentally lock the wonder into Korea.

 

[Steb]

Yes, you are definitely correct about the lack of Hindu wonders, especially from the medieval period and later. Part of the reason is that I did not want to just stack even more wonders for the Indian civ, which already has a good deal of them. However, another reason is that I do not want to include Hindu temples just for the sake of having more temples. It would be bad if wonders felt like they are just another temple complex with little distinguishing them. It's similar with Europe where I am cautious to turn every cathedral into a wonder. Also, temples often suggest religious effects and I think we are almost out of "religion also gives this bonus" type effects.

That said, I definitely want to find more wonders, and being from a different time period is a good argument for inclusion. To be quite honest, we are currently a bit inconsistent about where to locate wonders that were built and rebuilt multiple times on the timeline: for instance, the current Shwedagon Pagoda is also from the 15-16th century but we currently treat it as an early medieval wonder.

I generally like the Meenakshi Temple and the Konark Sun Temple suggestions here. But another thing I would like to highlight in connection with the argument that we should have a genuine Tamil wonder is Vijayanagara. This is a hugely important chapter in Indian history and the mod currently does too little to represent it. At some point in the future, I would like to retool the Tamil civilization into a broader Dravidian civilization so that it can better represent all of South Indian history and include Vijayanagara more explicitly. Especially considering the site of its capital is known for its monuments, and probably was the second largest city in the world at its height.

More Vijayanagara representation sounds good, and I think Meenakshi can sort of serve this purpose since it was rebuilt under them? Another idea would be something with rock-cut architecture. For instance this statue in Karnataka is the largest monolithic statue in the world: Gommateshwara statue. It would also give Jainism some representation!

And yeah I agree that the bar should be high to include a new temple as a wonder. I think Meenakshi clears it in part because there are few Hindu temple wonders already and they're all from the same period across multiple civs. (Khajuraho and Wat Preah Pisnulok actually require the same tech!)

For comparison and for fun, there are a total of 34 wonders that are temples / places of worship according to my own classification (which excludes tombs, monuments etc. as well as the shrines):

• Olympian: 3 (Oracle, Parthenon, Artemis)
• Teotl: 1 (Kukulkan)
• Shinto: 1 (Itsukushima [requires Buddhism in game])
• Hindu: 3 (Khajuraho, Prambanan, Wat Preah Pisnulok)
• Buddhist: 5 (Jetavanaramaya, Borobudur, Shwedagon, Emerald Buddha, Porcelain Tower [requires Confucianism/Taoism in game])
• Orthodox: 4 (Hagia Sophia, Monolithic Church, Saint Sophia, Saint Basil)
• Catholic: 8 (Notre Dame, Santa Maria, San Marco, Sistine Chapel, Guadalupe, Salt Cathedral, Las Lajas, Sagrada Familia)
• Protestant: 2 (Saint Thomas, Crystal Cathedral)
• Islam: 4 (Mezquita, Spiral Minaret, Dome of the Rock, Blue Mosque [requires Orthodoxy in game])
• Judaism: 1 (Old Synagogue)
• Bahai: 1 (Lotus Temple)
• Sikh: 1 (Harmandir Sahib [requires Hinduism in game])
• Confucian: 0
• Taoist: 0
• Zoroastrian: 0

Of course this doesn't necessarily need to be balanced, and there are plenty of non-temple wonders that are associated with the various religions.

I do have an idea for an effect that could be applied to a temple wonder, but only a really early one: Boost the usefulness of pagan temples by giving them +1 Priest slot and possible other effects (e.g. more happiness/culture or faster construction speed). This would help paganism function more like a religion in the early civs that flourish before the "formal" religions appear, such as Egypt and Babylon. This effect would work well for e.g. an Abu Simbel Rock-Cut Temple wonder, or for a Great Ziggurat of Ur one. The Pantheon in Rome would also fit thematically, and really deserves to be in the game IMO, but it was built too late for the effect to be useful.

True, it should be Confucian/Taoist state religion plus Buddhist city religion. I hope that works out though, I would need to review if Buddhism is actually present enough in China to make that work. We don't want to accidentally lock the wonder into Korea.

In my experience Buddhism typically spreads to a few cities, though not all unless you make a point of it. But it's been a while since I played China.

 

[black213]

A wonder, or two, exclusive to Judaism state religion would be neat

 

[Leoreth]

More Vijayanagara representation sounds good, and I think Meenakshi can sort of serve this purpose since it was rebuilt under them? Another idea would be something with rock-cut architecture. For instance this statue in Karnataka is the largest monolithic statue in the world: Gommateshwara statue. It would also give Jainism some representation!

And yeah I agree that the bar should be high to include a new temple as a wonder. I think Meenakshi clears it in part because there are few Hindu temple wonders already and they're all from the same period across multiple civs. (Khajuraho and Wat Preah Pisnulok actually require the same tech!)

Agreed. I definitely think Meenakshi is good and it already has art that I know of. Pretty sure it was in consideration during the pass that added all these wonders but I passed it up for "not another temple" reasons, but like you said that was probably hasty because it is from a different region and time period. Still, in the above post I was also thinking about a building from Vijayanagara City (aka Hampi) itself.

Of course this doesn't necessarily need to be balanced, and there are plenty of non-temple wonders that are associated with the various religions.

Not to bring this thread back to Europe of all places but the lack of Protestant religious wonders also strikes me as odd. Maybe Westminster Chapel should be in after all? Although Westminster Palace and Chapel both as wonders would also be weird, and London already is wonder heavy.

I do have an idea for an effect that could be applied to a temple wonder, but only a really early one: Boost the usefulness of pagan temples by giving them +1 Priest slot and possible other effects (e.g. more happiness/culture or faster construction speed). This would help paganism function more like a religion in the early civs that flourish before the "formal" religions appear, such as Egypt and Babylon. This effect would work well for e.g. an Abu Simbel Rock-Cut Temple wonder, or for a Great Ziggurat of Ur one. The Pantheon in Rome would also fit thematically, and really deserves to be in the game IMO, but it was built too late for the effect to be useful.

Oh, this reminds me of an earlier idea I had, which isn't exactly any specific wonder, but rather a national wonder built by great prophets that requires no state religion, basically taking the role of the shrine for major religions. Like for pagan temples, there could be name/art alternatives for this wonder depending on the pagan religion. That way, we could fit in all those candidates for pagan religious wonders that cannot all become wonders, like Abu Simbel could become this for Pesedjet, the Great Ziggurat could be the version for Anunnaki etc. The effect doesn't necessarily have to be shrine income either.

In general though you have to be careful with pagan religions because it is important that major religions are still a clearly superior choice.

 

[Steb]

Looking at the list some more, I realized that almost all wonders towards the end of the game are feats of engineering or science; there is almost nothing religious or cultural, except the Lotus Temple and Harbour Opera. I think a strong contender for a cultural wonder at the end of the tech tree is the Guggenheim Museum (the Bilbao one). As Wikipedia puts it:

One of the most admired works of contemporary architecture, the building has been hailed as a "signal moment in the architectural culture", because it represents "one of those rare moments when critics, academics, and the general public were all completely united about something", according to architectural critic Paul Goldberger. The museum was the building most frequently named as one of the most important works completed since 1980 in the 2010 World Architecture Survey among architecture experts.

In game, I think the most fitting tech is Aerodynamics or Computers, representing the fact that advances in materials science and computer technology were necessary to build it. The associated Great Person would be the Great Artist. It would give a fair amount of culture, maybe +25% or +50%.

The effect would have to be fairly powerful for the wonder to be worth building at the end of the game, when culture has no time to accumulate much anymore. I suggest a two-fold effect: Great Works can be done by Great Engineers, and +100% Culture from Great Works. This would make the wonder useful for players trying to complete a culture victory.

Now I'm not aware of a 3D model for the museum, which may make this proposal infeasible, but I think it'd be worth creating one if we can.