[Feature] Additional Wonders

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Steb

    Steb King

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    Absolutely. Or merchant maybe.
     
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  2. BaneFire

    BaneFire Warlord

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    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/visionary-wonders-thread.663557/#post-15928663
    I proposed some wonders in this thread (posted below to streamline discussion)

    Volkshalle
    Requires Totalitarianism and Secularism

    Whipping gives Great Person points in the city Volkshalle was built in.
    +6 Great Artist points

    Commentary: Volkshalle was the Nazi German project for Berlin planned for the post-war victory. This is represented by Totalitarianism and Secularism, and if possible I'd say a settled great general in the city. The reference to whipping is due to Albert Speer's role in the Nazi slavery program, and serves to connect that with an idea of lots of post-war Europe being whipped to help serve the central govt in Berlin.

    ---

    Palace of the Soviets
    Requires State Party

    +25% trade route profit with Communist countries.
    +6 Great Engineer points.

    Commentary: The Palace of the Soviets was envisioned as a statement of revolutionary success in the Soviet Union, but was also an international effort designed to bring attention to the USSR. This is represented by the trade route affect, you could also add in positive relations with Communist countries.

    ---

    Other possible ones:
    Prora (civ 5 reference anyone)
    Chicago (The) Spire
    Big Bend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bend
    Bionic Tower
    Third Temple of Jerusalem
    Gibraltar Dam (??)
     
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  3. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Prince

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    I'd like to make another pitch for adding the

    Great Bath of Mohenjo Daro.
    • Requires Masonry, 120 :hammers:, double production with marble, inspires a Great Engineer, obsolete at Medicine
    • +2 :health: in every city (taking the effect from Aqua Appia
    The Harappans are the only 3000 BC civilization that isn't represented with a wonder, and a wonder like this would mesh very well with their unique power (health contributes to city growth).

    If we are talking about taking the effect away from Aqua Appia, we are going to need to replace it with another effect, something more helpful. The +2 :health: in every city in the classical era is almost never utilized, in my experience. I think we should take a page out of Sunset of Civilization's book (@Imp. Knoedel) and change the

    Aqua Appia
    • -33% hurry cost
    the same effect as the Kremlin from the base game. The Romans may not need extra health in their cities, but a wonder that makes their whipping more efficient would make this a very important wonder for them to build.

    And lastly, I was playing as the Greeks again when I noticed the Temple of Artemis is a total dud of a wonder (in my humble opinion). The effects are all over the place: +100% trade route yield, a free priest, and it inspires a Great Merchant. +100% trade route at this point of the game isn't going to net you more than an extra :commerce:, maybe two. In fact, if you are running Redistribution, it might not give any benefit at all!
    Spoiler My Temple of Artemis City :
    20220515172438_1.jpg
    And providing a free priest while inspiring a merchant is a bit odd. I know this wonder and its effects go back to vanilla Civ 4, but I'd like to make an argument for changing its effects to

    Temple of Artemis
    • Free Pagan Temple in every city
    With the Greeks running Deification, this wonder would effectively give every city in their empire +1 :) and 2 :culture:. Fairly helpful, seeing how they might be doing a lot of whipping and needing the :culture: in newly captured cities to reach good tiles. It would also help showcase the Hellenistic culture, and Greeks building temples all over the Mediterranean. And if the Romans capture this wonder, then they receive the benefit as well, with pagan temples to their gods springing up in all of their cities.
     

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  4. Steb

    Steb King

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    Already included in the spreadsheet with effects like "Double construction speed of health buildings" and "+4 health", but taking Aqua Appia's effect isn't a bad idea.

    This wouldn't really fit the Aqua Appia, though? Why would an aqueduct help with hurrying construction. But it could be an alternate effect for the Flavian Amphitheater, or the proposed Pantheon wonder. I kind of feel like the mod could do without the Aqua Appia altogether.

    Disagree with this. The Temple of Artemis was used as a bank and indeed was one of the first banking establishments, that's why it inspires great merchants. And having a hybrid religious/commercial wonder is more fun than yet another purely religious one. The effect might be a bit underwhelming, but it's up to the player to build it in a strong commercial city.
     
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  5. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Prince

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    "Hurry construction" in the classical era is basically a euphemism for "whipping population with despotism", and the regular aqueduct helps cities recover from sacrificed population. So a wonder of an aqueduct basically does the same thing, but better. I guess the logic falls apart when you start using citizenship to rush units, but I don't think that ability is used too much by players, so it could stand to gain a small boost from a wonder.

    I did not know that about the temple, that is definitely interesting. I guess my biggest gripe is that, from a gameplay perspective, it has to justify investing 140:hammers: (with marble) into it. And in the classical era, most of the pagan/Persian world inevitably goes to war with one another, breaking trade routes, leaving mostly domestic routes. And you can only get up to 3 trade routes in the classical era, with merchant trade and a lighthouse. It just seems to me that, in practice, in this mod, the wonder nearly always falls flat on its face. And wonders should be exciting!
     
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  6. Publicola

    Publicola King

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    Alternately, we have a bunch of World Wonders that are basically a super-sized version of an existing building, and most of them give a free copy of that building for every city (Krak des Chevaliers giving free castles). Applying the same principle to Aqua Appia would lead to a wonder effect: "Gives a free aqueduct in every city".

    Personally, I'd love to include more Wonders that, rather than provide a building for free, add extra benefits to that building type in every city. Most religious wonders do some variant of this, by giving extra science (Nalanda), espionage (Hagia Sophia), food (Khajuraho), gold (Spiral Minaret), culture (Sistine Chapel), etc. to state religion buildings. For Aqua Appia, given how it represents Roman engineering at its peak, I wonder if we could attach an effect like "Aqueducts give +10% production and 1 engineer specialist slot"


    I feel like Toby Ziegler in The West Wing. "I agree Josh and I agree with C.J. and I agree with Sam. And you know how that makes me crazy."

    The Temple of Artemis is decidedly underwhelming, especially given its role as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. Ideally, it should be a must-build like the Pyramids or the Great Wall.

    OTOH, the Temple of Artemis is a really cool wonder, in combining religious and commerce effects.

    So the question is... could we find a different effect that also acts as a hybrid but with a bit more punch? The first thing that comes to mind is, given that it was a temple serving as a banking establishment, make an effect that makes it act like a bank. 'Gives +50% gold in this city'. Alternately, to borrow the 'bonus to similar buildings' effect from above: "Pagan Temples give +10% gold in every city and 1 merchant specialist slot", or even "Pagan Temples give one free merchant specialist", though that might be a bit too OP. (Aqua Appia = "Aqueducts give one free engineer specialist"?)
     
  7. Dracosolon

    Dracosolon Warlord

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    Free specialists seem pretty powerful in that stage of the game, especially Engineers who otherwise come pretty late (I think it's just one slot from Forge until the industrial era?). +50% :commerce: in city, +10% (or even 20%) from Pagan Temples sounds reasonable. I don't find the hurry bonus from Aqua Appia inappropriate but it could be changed to additional city growth (or a :food: bonus) for Aqueducts?

    I also added a proposition to the spreadsheet but didn't bother to post it here:
    The Limes (Generalship?, requires Paganism and Foreign territory):
    -Engineer :gp:.
    -Defeated Barbarians on this continent generate Great People Points in capital.
    -Alternatively, remove the Foreign territory requirement and instead make the bonus applies to Barbarians defeated near the city where it is built, with a greater bonus.

    The intent is for the wonder to be attractive for pagan civs facing a lot of Barbarian waves (Rome especially, but it should be marginally useful to others) without providing a military bonus that would trivialize these waves. The Limes also make a bit more sense than Hadrian's Wall since Londinium is typically poorly developed and isn't threatened at all until the Vikings come along.
    The alternate effect should make for more interesting strategic positioning but might be too frustrating to use if Barbarians refuse to spawn near the city (though that could be fixed with a sufficiently big area of effect, maybe three tiles from the city?).

    Edit:

    France probably doesn't need more wonders, but if it does get more I think they should be outside of Paris. Some proposals:

    -Mont Saint-Michel (Theology?, requires Catholicism and Coast):
    -Prophet :gp:.
    -State religion monasteries provide additional science (+5% :science:?) per culture level.
    -Should obsolete early enough that the player doesn't get to abuse it too much.

    -Palais des Papes/Palace of the Popes (Doctrine?, requires Catholicism):
    -Artist or Prophet :gp:.
    -Can defy Apostolic decisions without consequences.
    -Might need some stronger effect. Maybe another :culture: bonus to represent its architectural legacy, or something to reflect the centralization of the Church it helped foster.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palais_des_Papes

    -Great Vignoble (Crop Rotation?, requires Wine):
    -Merchant :gp:.
    -Doesn't obsolete.
    -+1 (or 2) :) in core cities.
    -+1 :food: and +X :commerce: on improved Wine resources in every city.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_wine

    Other candidates are:
    -The ramparts of Carcassonne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcassonne), with the issue that Carcassonne is the name of the city so it's awkward to have it as a wonder name.
    -The Châteaux of the Loire Valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Châteaux_of_the_Loire_Valley), or one of them in particular.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  8. Derdan

    Derdan Chieftain

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    I really like the idea of Aqua Appia giving an engineer slot to Aqueducts. I think it would need another small effect though. +1 :health: to Aqueduct? It would be cool for it to make Bath construction faster but that would be too much given Rome's UP.
     
  9. Steb

    Steb King

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    There are only three wonders in the last column of the Renaissance era, representing roughly the 18th century.

    One idea from that time period: the Trevi Fountain in Rome, built in 1762. It's one of the most famous fountains and one of the most famous Baroque buildings (of which there are very few among currently included wonders). Rome already has several wonders (and I've proposed the Pantheon already), but if any city deserves to be overrepresented in wonders, I think it should be Rome.

    It's also cool that the fountain uses a modern incarnation of an ancient Roman aqueduct. The tech would be Hydraulics, obviously.
     
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  10. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    -Charles Bridge (Machinery + Catholicism + Judaism + River)
    -Engineer :gp:.
    -Double production speed with Stone
    - +2 trade routes in all cities on a river
    - +4 :culture:
    - Obsolete with Urban Planning



    Thoughts: Major economic benefit encourages a drive to gain Judaism in a city. Bridge wonders are cool. If possible to code, it gets unobsoleted with the Tolerance Civic. Even though Orthodoxy wasn't in Prague at the time, since it was relatively close by I can imagine it could have the option to be (Catholicism or Orthodoxy) plus Judaism. This gives Orthodox Poland, the Byzantines, or Russia a chance for another wonder, as Catholics have the bulk of them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
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  11. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    This might be OP AF, but:

    -Capitoline Museum (Academia - no religious requirement)
    -Scientist :gp:
    -Unobsoletes great wonders within your Core, Historical, and Contested Territory
    - +2:culture:
    -(Ironically) Obsolete in Industrial Age

    The wonder doesn't last too long, but it does have some interesting possibilities.
     
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  12. Steb

    Steb King

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    I added your two suggestions to the spreadsheet, feel free to edit them!
     
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  13. Gahan

    Gahan Chieftain

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    I wanted more Korean Wonders, so I suggest these heritages carefully

    Tripitaka Koreana
    (or Palman Daejanggyeong)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripitaka_Koreana
    - Requires: Printing, Buddhism(State Religion), 300:hammers:?
    - +6:culture:, Prophet :gp:
    - Can Draft 3 Archers per turn with no :mad: in city with Buddhism when you are at war with a stronger civilization and their military units are at your tile
    - Obsoletes: Nationalism
    - Photo: Haeinsa Janggyeong Panjeon, Storage area of the Tripitaka

    Hwaseong Fortress
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwaseong_Fortress
    - Requires: Urban Planning(Enables), Scientific Method(Just Requires, reflecting Silhak), Confucianism(State Religion), Walls, 800:hammers:
    - +6:culture:, Engineer :gp:
    - 50% Defense (Except vs. Gunpowder-based Units)
    - +1:gold: and +1:hammers: per fully fortified Gunpowder Unit in this city (well maybe this is OP I think)
    - Double production speed with Stone
    - Obsoletes: Labour Unions?
    - Photo: Paldalmun, South Gate of the Fortress
     
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  14. Darnokthemage

    Darnokthemage Warlord

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    Tre Kronor castle
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tre_Kronor_(castle)

    - Requires: Printing Press maybe? Something late medieval, Catholicism or protestantism and iron or copper ore
    - +3:culture: -2:food:
    - Great General :gp:
    - 50% Defense (Except vs. Gunpowder-based Units) (?)
    - +1:gold: +2:hammers: +1:culture: -1:food: to Mines
    - double production with iron

    Represents the early modern rise of Sweden from backwater prinvince to Great power. Meant to play on the large-scale export of copper and iron done at the time, and also some suggestion of the Warrior Kings of Sweden such as Carolus Rex and Gustavus Adolphus. It is also meant to represent the periods of manpower draining that the Wars meant for the Swedes.
     

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  15. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    I don't think Sweden needs any fortification bonus so there's not much of a reason to pursue that wonder. Also there's not many protestant wonders so I'd definitely keep it protestant. Though I do like the idea of a Swedish wonder, what Sweden could use the most is a stability bonus. So I recommend, based on you saying it's based on export of ores, I recommend a +2 stability bonus to Foreign for traded iron or copper resource. As Sweden, in the current map has 3/4 resources (malmo, Trondheim, Finland, and Scotland), A plus 6/8 would be huge. And if you're not playing Sweden, but want to keep them as an ally, as a player you can try to trade them for that resource to try to keep them afloat.

    I'd also recommend having the great leader be a statesman instead of a general.

    I predict Leoreth will make Sweden a separate civ from Vikings in the new map, so maybe they probably won't have the same stability issue. And in the new map, there'll be 7 copper and iron in Scandinavia alone, so perhaps a +1 stability bonus.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
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