Featured Game 3 Pre-Discussion: Darius

[Thalassicus]

Download Game 3
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• About the GotVEM competition.
• Early game discussion (pre-Renaissance).
• Late game discussion & post final victory save.

This thread is to discuss strategies ahead of time for the Game 3 start location. Please DO NOT post details here after you start. Two spoiler threads will be opened to discuss games in progress.

Game 3 Start Location

(3-tile range revealed for better first-turn strategizing.)
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• King difficulty.
• Normal speed.
• Normal map size (8 players).
• Modified Perfect World map script.
• Default advanced game options.
• Any victory type allowed except Time.
• Darius of Persia:
  • Units move +1 faster during Golden Ages.
  • Satrap's Court replaces Markets, giving 200 + 3/turn Golden Age points.
  • Immortal replaces Spearman, with +2 and faster healing.

No paid DLCs will be used for this game. Before the game starts on Friday, take these 2 simple steps to temporarily disable any paid DLCs you have:

1. On your Windows desktop, create a new folder "DLC - Backup."
2. Move all paid DLCs* to the backup folder from:
   C:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC

*The Shared folder and DLC_01 (free Mongolia pack) must remain installed.

The Perfect World map script by cephalo uses fractal altitude and wind patterns to create Earth-like terrain. For VEM I modified this script to generate isles and volcanic island chains. I also adjusted the balance of rough and open terrain to achieve approximately the same ratio as vanilla (the default Perfect World script favors rough terrain).

 

[Ahriman]

Yuck. Nasty start. Lots of jungle and marsh, bonuses are all lots of different tech paths (calendar for plantations, mining needed to chop the forest, archery for the deer, animal husbandry for the cow, masonry for the stone).

 

[RedRover57]

I will probably settle in place.

Build order: Scout - Scout - Monument - Great Library - Pyramids (buy a Granary as soon as cash is available) - Settler (may need to slip an Immortal/archer or 2 in there somewhere depending on closeness of AI and severity of barbs; also may need to slip in a water mill for the production)

SH doesn't seem too important on this map, with additional silk being the only special tile in the third ring.

SP's: Tradition - Liberty - Free worker - Free settler (I would like to try all Tradition sometime but will likely cave to get the free stuff. Free settler plus free worker = more wonder spam in my capital).

Techs: Mining - Pottery - Writing - AH - BW/Masonry/Archery/Calendar/The Wheel (not sure what order yet as they all seem of equal importance)

Settle 3 additional cities (if there are 3 good sites nearby) - 2 free settlers plus build one.

Science victory maybe?

 

[Gamewizard]

Nice PerfectWorld map! Great script.

I will settle in place, move the warrior toward the ruins north. Build scout first and probably a second scout or granary. Save gold for a worker. Tech to Calendar then to Masonry. Not sure yet if I want to go Tradition with a high pop/production capital, likely a culture win, or go for a Liberty start for a quick second worker, likely a science win.

 

[black213]

Settling in place seems to be the best option.

 

[Thalassicus]

I like this start because of the wide variety of options. The resources don't push us into an obvious tech path. Every path except Sailing is useful here. Calendar is a strong early priority, but what route to take after that will likely depend on what the 2 ancient ruins give, and what we discover in the unrevealed areas. The Jungles and Forests are great because we can customize our land to suit our needs... chopping jungle converts 1 -> 1, and chopping forest does the reverse. It's a flexible start with numerous resources, rivers, grassland and hills, but will take time to develop. I'm thinking of this build order:

1. Honor opener
2. Liberty left side
3. Professional Army
4. Finish Liberty
5. Finish Honor

1. Scout
2. Scout
3. Worker
4. Stonehenge

Stonehenge is a strong first build because Silk is on the same tech. The 4 from Stonehenge increases policy rate to 170-200% (palace+monument+tradition = 6), and with Stonehenge plus the engineer from a wall, we can generate 3 Engineer points per turn. This gives a Great Engineer in about ~50 turns (1gpp until wall, 3gpp after, 100 points required). The massive border radius will allow the capital to immediately access all useful tiles. Of the river tiles, 11/14 are in the outer rings, and 7/10 of the hills. The high food close to the capital means those outer hills can be quickly put to good use. Many of these tiles will likely be useful for our later cities as well. There might also be useful resources in the 4th ring.

Other world wonders will not be a priority for me in this game because of the lack of Marble. I plan on pursuing early conquest with lots of Immortals to take advantage of Darius's early game strength. I will likely found a 2nd city, conquer nearby citystates, then conquer major civs. The order of CSs or major civs might change depending on who's closer.

 

[Txurce]

This was very much what I was hoping you would do with Darius - provide a situation allowing a very flexible civ to go in just about any direction. This may be the first game where I don't settle on a VC before I start. I want to maximize Persia's flexibility, and may take a relatively unorthodox approach to whatever I choose (for the fun of it).

How good a start you get is all about how you choose to work the land. That's what I'm focusing on right now. A second worker seems essential. Do I get it from Liberty or do I buy one?

By the way, 117.2 looks good.

 

[Gamewizard]

I haven't played with the new Satrap's Court yet. Seems to favor a wide empire of small cities in order to build as many as possible. I wonder how many more GA's you can realistically pump out in a 200 ~ 250 turn game than without them. Should be interesting. However, this starting position really makes me want to build a super production capital...quite the dilemma.

Also, if most of the map looks like this, rough terrain, that should help the AI out, considering their promotion choices.

 

[Gamewizard]

The Jungles and Forests are great because we can customize our land to suit our needs... chopping jungle converts 1 -> 1, and chopping forest does the reverse.

If you chop a jungle on a grassland tile, you go from 2 -> 2, right?

You could keep them around for the science later on though!

 

[Txurce]

If you chop a jungle on a grassland tile, you go from 2 -> 2, right?

You could keep them around for the science later on though!

Not if there are plains underneath. I think that's the case sometimes, but am not positive.

 

[glider1]

Yeeeeeh Perfect World returns bigger and better thanks Thal! A jungle based science city sounds like fun! Is it possible? If we domesticate the wild cattle on pastures, trap the wild deer in camps and turn the marsh into farmland while leaving the rainforests untouched except for roads, it could be a really cool Pandora movie like city of the future. There's a mountain nearby, does that mean we can build Macchu Picchu?
Cheers

 

[void_genesis]

Very interesting starting position. I've done some trial tall cultural games for Darius recently, something he does very well.

I'm inclined to try something different for this game and get the wide/aggressive policies (liberty/piety/tradition) out of the way with three core tall cities then go on a mid-late game rampage (honour/autocracy/~order).

All of that could easily change depending on what comes from the early ruins.

A quick question- will everyone get something different from the ruins, or do we all get the same bonuses?

 

[eazyseeker]

Jungles are always on plains, no matter what.

 

[Thalassicus]

As eazyseeker pointed out, Jungle is restricted to plains. We cannot place it on grassland in the world builder, and changing jungle to grassland removes the jungle.

2 Grassland
2 Jungle chops to ->
11 Plains

It's basically a way to convert grassland to plains. Usually it's better to leave it as jungle, since jungles get from later science buildings. The only time I chop jungle is when I want to maximize food and production, typically around a military production city.

 

[glider1]

The jungle implementation in civ5 is great. In the real world jungle always grows on top of poor soils (this is why plains and not grassland). Jungle provided so much naturally growing food varieties that in ancient times farming jungle didn't provide that much benefit until more modern times. At some point jungles do get cleared as the relentless pressure to maximize production compel the clearing, but this is at a significant loss to science and medicine as biodiversity is lost and cannot be replaced.
Cheers

 

[void_genesis]

I'm definitely going to try a two phase strategy to see if I can make the most of Darius's flexibility.

To begin I'll be going for a tall cultural/scientific game with 3-4 cities. My goal is to fill out tradition and piety first, to make use of the happy/golden age bonuses of Darius. I'll spam a good number of immortals (at least 6) to discourage AI attacks but leave them on fortified to drop the maintenance cost (thanks to tradition).

Phase 2 will be to go wide after I start filling out honour (extra happy from coliseums) to go on a puppeting spree. Once autocracy is mostly filled then I start annexing. The extra healing policy of autocracy on upgraded immortals with medic vanguards for support should be pretty unstoppable (getting blitz would be even better).

I'll be determined to limit my usual wonder whoring ways. I reckon one wonder per era is a good yardstick
Ancient- Pyramids (fast expansion essential in phase 1 without liberty, chop some forests to get it)(Great library is tempting too....no...must resist)
Classical- Oracle (faster culture/policies)
Medieval- Chichen Itza (bee-line civil service to boost food on the many river tiles as well)
Renaissance- Depends on whether I am ready to go to war yet.

 

[void_genesis]

Just been play testing a culture then conquest approach with Darius.

By 300 AD had Tradition and Piety filled with three cities. ~1300AD for honour to be filled. Autocracy opening as I took down Rome (who had dowed me on turn 30 and never made peace, until I left him with one crappy island city). Keeping up with a runaway Japan in science, and about to take down a very tall Aztecs. Still have an AI or two to meet- just bought some caravels to find them.

At the height of cultural output before I started my war I was at about 50 happy. Got Chichen and golden ages started to roll. Even though my happiness has dropped my puppets are all cranking out satrap's courts and keeping me in a permanent golden age. Will annex/courthouse the bigger roman cities for a happy/culture/science boost shortly once the autocracy courthouse boosting policy kicks in. As it currently stands Autocracy is rather lovely and worth the wait.

From here I could still go for any victory type, though I am curious to try a wide conquest game where I try out colonising every scrap of land in the late game to see the effect.

 

[Txurce]

Even though my happiness has dropped my puppets are all cranking out satrap's courts and keeping me in a permanent golden age. Will annex/courthouse the bigger roman cities for a happy/culture/science boost shortly once the autocracy courthouse boosting policy kicks in.

From here I could still go for any victory type, though I am curious to try a wide conquest game where I try out colonising every scrap of land in the late game to see the effect.

You were right - that was a very informative approach you took, leaving every option viable.

What was the upside to waiting to annex the bigger Roman cities - not having the gold to buy monuments and temples?

 

[Thalassicus]

Puppets do have lower happiness than normal cities. Even when we have surplus happiness, annexation reduces our rate of happiness golden ages, which are 20 turns long and especially useful for Darius.

 

[Txurce]

Puppets do have lower happiness than normal cities. Even when we have surplus happiness, annexation reduces our rate of happiness golden ages (which are 20 turns long).

So your first point is an argument for annexing and then building beneficial structures in cities?

Presumably annexation lowers happiness GA's by adding more population to the count than can be covered by luxuries and happiness buildings. But it also seems to raise happiness, as per above. Is there a percentage for how much happiness goes up upon annexation (even if it's simultaneously reduced by population)?