Feedback: Civics

[Xyth]

Right, then. I'm ready to begin working on 1.19.
One of my goals is to revamp the starting civics. They do nothing at the moment, and that's such a waste.

Agreed. It was always my intention to eventually develop them and 1.19 seems like a good time to tackle them.

(My other goal is to revamp all 50 UBs. Many of them are quite boring, offering only +25% on a random building. They should be unique.)

Yeah, UBs are in definite need of an review. UUs too.

Warfare
No Technology Requirement
Low Upkeep
• No War

The new starting civic, under which conquest is seen as a way of life, and no distinction is made between soldiers and civilians. I'm not happy with the name but I can't think of any better: Clan Warfare sounds too ancient, Total Warfare sounds too modern, and Endemic Warfare sounds too technical. Any suggestions? The civic is set to Low Upkeep because every civilization should have the option to abandon the benefits of a more organized military in exchange for No War when fighting (and probably losing) a bitter, drawn-out war.

Total Warfare definitely isn't appropriate. Endemic Warfare is the correct name but I think Clan Warfare works well enough. Many cultures today are still clan-based in some form or another.

I'm not sure about switching Clan Warfare to the default Military civic. Not all civilizations developed it, while militias were essential in defending almost every early settlement.

The default "Warfare" category should describe a poorly-organised, unprofessional conscript military whose size varies with campaigns, threats and seasons. I don't think that a no-war-weariness bonus is appropriate. Its only benefit is that it costs little, and this could better be reflected by an increased number of free units. That gives it a greater value as a fall-back position, and still leaves a contrast with civics that provide X conscripts per turn.

I'm trying to get away from the default civics being primitive and inferior, and this latest redesign will hopefully complete that process. Neolithic societies weren't undeveloped, their customs just didn't necessarily translate well to larger populations.

The name: Anything involving the word "Warfare" isn't appropriate because the civic also applies when no war is being waged. Some ideas: "Summary Army", "Warrior Army", "Heroics", "Civil Defence" (I prefer the latter).

Not true, the entire idea of Endemic/Clan Warfare is that conflict is continually happening, just internally rather not externally. It's part of the culture.

Militia
Requires Employment
Low Upkeep
• Can Draft X Units per turn
• +100% Experience gained from Combat within own Borders
• +1 from Walls

The old Conscription civic, renamed Militia, because many different forms of military organization rely on conscripts. Picks up bonus happiness from Walls since it is no longer the only civic that enables the draft.

Makes sense as Militia. Happiness from Walls is good. Depending how these all end up I'd probably shuffle some tech requirements a little.

Mercenary
Requires Riding
No Upkeep
• +100% from Pillaging and Capturing Cities
• -50% to Upgrade Military Units
• +1 Support Cost per Military Unit

A new civic to replace Clan Warfare; I'm particularly pleased with this one. No national military but mercenaries, hence no civic upkeep but support costs per unit. Players must hope that more plunder and more efficient upgrades (from private military contractors) can pay for the mercenaries. A good option for aggressive ancient empires (the Nubian Medjay for Egypt) and powerful midgame empires (Swiss mercenaries for France). Also: an excellent "favourite civic" option for many leaders.

I like the concept, it just might not be possible as is. A crucial problem is that both the positive effects here are custom coded. This means that AI does not understand their value or when they are useful. I try to pair such effects with standard bonuses that are already reasonably attractive.

There is an option to add more 'weight' to a civic, which makes the AI think a civic is more valuable than its calculations show, but I'm unsure how it works exactly and haven't used it to date. I'll see what I can find out.

Something else to note is that 'No Upkeep' is quite powerful. It's a bigger reduction in costs going from 'Low' to 'No' than it is from 'High' to 'Low'. Not a problem, just something to factor in.

The name "Mercenary" is grammatically inappropriate but "Mercenarism" is clumsy! What about "Mercenary Army"?

'Mercenary Army' is probably the best choice and contrasts with 'Standing Army'. Or perhaps just 'Mercenaries'?

Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can Draft 2X Units per turn
• +25% in all Cities
• +2 from Castle

Vassals can draft twice as many conscripts as militias; I hope this is possible to code. The ability to draft units is so powerful that I feel it should be available on more than one civic. Besides, I've never liked "Reduced Unit Upkeep Costs:" the formula that determines the number of free units is terribly obscure and convoluted. I hope to recast the bonus as "No Unit Upkeep Costs" for Despotism civic.

I can set the draft limit to anything we want. I'd like to look at the unit upkeep mechanics and see what's possible before deciding to ditch it as a bonus.

Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 Experience Points
• +100% Great General emergence
• +1 from Bunker

The upgrade discount is replaced with a weaker flavour bonus on Bunkers. Of the four most advanced military civics, two allow conscripts, two do not, but all provide happiness with the building most closely associated with them.

I'd prefer to have this as a 2 bonus civic, perhaps boosting the amount of xp a little if needed.

I think you should be more clear when describing the Aggressive trait and the proposed Mercenary civic: not merely "increased from Pillaging and Capturing Cities" but "+100%" or whatever the case may be.

They're both +100% (additive, not multiplicative). Done.

Minor, pedantic note: the names of the civic categories should be either nouns or adjectives, not both. Either Government/Law/Economy etc. or Political/Legal/Economic etc. I prefer nouns.

They're all nouns now except Legal. I'm not bothered by changing it to Law.

I'm still sorting out the bonuses for the other civic categories. I'm wondering what might be possible in terms of bonuses for specialists and state religions. How about: +5 from State Religion? +1 from State Religion? +2 from State Religion? +1 per specialist? +1 per specialist? +1 per specialist? I realize that the AI might not recognize these bonuses but they would still be useful for flavour and diversity.

I cannot add any other bonuses to specialists; there's no python event fired when they're changed so there's nothing to attach extra code to. State Religion bonuses are doable with custom coding.

Why not use the chic word "Bushido" to replace "Warrior Code"? It's already been absorbed into English, if I am not wrong.

I wouldn't call it 'Bushido' for the same reasons I wouldn't called it 'Chivalry'. The civic represents many warrior cultures from all over the world, not just Japan and Europe. Warrior Code works perfectly in my opinion.

 

[Azoth]

Total Warfare definitely isn't appropriate. Endemic Warfare is the correct name but I think Clan Warfare works well enough. Many cultures today are still clan-based in some form or another.

I'm not sure about switching Clan Warfare to the default Military civic. Not all civilizations developed it, while militias were essential in defending almost every early settlement.

That's just it: Clan Warfare works well enough, but not as the default Military civic. What are our other options? Ritual Warfare, Tribal Warfare, and plain old Irregular. Or, how about this: we could borrow Tribalism from the Labour column and replace it with Nomadic. Thus: Tribalism/Mercenaries/Militia/etc. and Nomadic/Agrarianism/Slavery/etc.

I'm trying to get away from the default civics being primitive and inferior, and this latest redesign will hopefully complete that process. Neolithic societies weren't undeveloped, their customs just didn't necessarily translate well to larger populations.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I think we need to revamp the Law column. Barbarism is simply another name for the traditions you disagree with; and Codification and Jurisdiction, though they make sense to me, are very abstract descriptors.

I would prefer something more along the lines of: Tradition/Proclamation/Authoritarianism/Civil Code/Parliament/Equal Rights. Tradition is the default civic. Proclamation is a new civic, unlocked at Oration. It represents ad hoc legal rulings: royal edicts under Monarchy, papal bulls or fatwas under Theocracy, executive orders under Democracy, etc. Civil Code is the end-product of Codification: a written code of laws. Parliament, as a representative body (whether appointed, elected, caste-based, or otherwise) establishes proper Jurisdiction. We can tailor the names to fit but that's the general outline. What do you think? (I'm still mulling over the exact bonuses for each civic.)

I like the concept, it just might not be possible as is. A crucial problem is that both the positive effects here are custom coded. This means that AI does not understand their value or when they are useful. I try to pair such effects with standard bonuses that are already reasonably attractive.

There is an option to add more 'weight' to a civic, which makes the AI think a civic is more valuable than its calculations show, but I'm unsure how it works exactly and haven't used it to date. I'll see what I can find out.

Something else to note is that 'No Upkeep' is quite powerful. It's a bigger reduction in costs going from 'Low' to 'No' than it is from 'High' to 'Low'. Not a problem, just something to factor in.

I thought about that. I'm hoping that No Upkeep will be a big enough draw to cancel out the per unit penalty. (I think they will cancel out in practice: you rarely pay more gold in upkeep for a single civic than you have units in your army.) I think the bonuses are near-perfect, though, so I wouldn't be too worried if the AI can't be convinced of their merit. Fact is, the AI gets steep discounts on civic upkeep (or, at least, it does in BtS) so No Upkeep is not as significant as it is for the player. That's why so few AIs adopt Pacifism in BtS.

I can set the draft limit to anything we want. I'd like to look at the unit upkeep mechanics and see what's possible before deciding to ditch it as a bonus.

My current thinking is to keep "No Unit Upkeep" in the Military column, as the bonus for the default civic. "No War " might then move to Despotism. I certainly don't want to ditch it entirely.

I'd prefer to have this as a 2 bonus civic, perhaps boosting the amount of xp a little if needed.

Sounds good. I'd suggest +4 Experience Points, equivalent to a Barracks. That way, we could reuse +2 Experience Points for the default Labour civic.

I cannot add any other bonuses to specialists; there's no python event fired when they're changed so there's nothing to attach extra code to. State Religion bonuses are doable with custom coding.

A pity about the specialist bonuses but the state religion bonuses will come in handy. Another question, then: What bonuses can you attach to buildings, besides health and happiness? I remember you had trouble with +2 from Courthouse. How about +2 from Harbour? +8 from Palace? +2 from Stable?

 

[Nightstar]

That's just it: Clan Warfare works well enough, but not as the default Military civic. What are our other options? Ritual Warfare, Tribal Warfare, and plain old Irregular.

How about "Raiding" or "Tribal Raiding"?

 

[Xyth]

That's just it: Clan Warfare works well enough, but not as the default Military civic. What are our other options? Ritual Warfare, Tribal Warfare, and plain old Irregular. Or, how about this: we could borrow Tribalism from the Labour column and replace it with Nomadic. Thus: Tribalism/Mercenaries/Militia/etc. and Nomadic/Agrarianism/Slavery/etc.

My current thinking is to keep "No Unit Upkeep" in the Military column, as the bonus for the default civic. "No War " might then move to Despotism. I certainly don't want to ditch it entirely.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should leave Militia as the default Military civic, even in its proposed new form. Drafting available from gamestart could be quite interesting; it won't be too powerful as populations are low and you cripple your economy if you overuse it - but it could reduce the effectiveness of early rushes, which is never a bad thing in my opinion.

Clan Warfare can remain as it is in 1.18 and Mercenary Army can be no upkeep, +1 unit support cost, cheaper unit upgrades, and perhaps add something different as the third bonus so it isn't entirely about .

I don't think I can explicitly set 'No Unit Upkeep', though I could set the number of free units to be very high. I'll have to look into it.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I think we need to revamp the Law column. Barbarism is simply another name for the traditions you disagree with; and Codification and Jurisdiction, though they make sense to me, are very abstract descriptors.

I would prefer something more along the lines of: Tradition/Proclamation/Authoritarianism/Civil Code/Parliament/Equal Rights. Tradition is the default civic. Proclamation is a new civic, unlocked at Oration. It represents ad hoc legal rulings: royal edicts under Monarchy, papal bulls or fatwas under Theocracy, executive orders under Democracy, etc. Civil Code is the end-product of Codification: a written code of laws. Parliament, as a representative body (whether appointed, elected, caste-based, or otherwise) establishes proper Jurisdiction. We can tailor the names to fit but that's the general outline. What do you think? (I'm still mulling over the exact bonuses for each civic.)

Yeah, Barbarism needs to go and I think Tradition moving to the default civic position makes perfect sense. Proclamation ---> Codification ---> Jurisdiction makes for a good progression. I'll have a think about the name changes.

I thought about that. I'm hoping that No Upkeep will be a big enough draw to cancel out the per unit penalty. (I think they will cancel out in practice: you rarely pay more gold in upkeep for a single civic than you have units in your army.) I think the bonuses are near-perfect, though, so I wouldn't be too worried if the AI can't be convinced of their merit. Fact is, the AI gets steep discounts on civic upkeep (or, at least, it does in BtS) so No Upkeep is not as significant as it is for the player. That's why so few AIs adopt Pacifism in BtS.

I'll investigate this once I've finished the Dynamic City Naming framework (nearly done).

A pity about the specialist bonuses but the state religion bonuses will come in handy. Another question, then: What bonuses can you attach to buildings, besides health and happiness? I remember you had trouble with +2 from Courthouse. How about +2 from Harbour? +8 from Palace? +2 from Stable?

With the new civics framework I coded for Corporations I should be able add any yield or commerce type to buildings. As always, we need to pair any such bonus with AI recognizable ones.

 

[Azoth]

The more I think about it, the more I think we should leave Militia as the default Military civic, even in its proposed new form. Drafting available from gamestart could be quite interesting; it won't be too powerful as populations are low and you cripple your economy if you overuse it - but it could reduce the effectiveness of early rushes, which is never a bad thing in my opinion.

Yeah, let's keep Militia as the default Military civic - only without the drafting. Drafting available at game start would not be pretty:

1. It would probably strengthen the effectiveness of early rushes, since only offensive units can be drafted in the early game: Axemen and Heavy Footmen, not Archers or Crossbowmen.
2. It would more effective with small city sizes, not less: the smaller the city, the less food it needs to grow back after drafting, and the less it needs to stay happy under the draft penalty.
3. It would further favour from Farms and Pastures over from (polluting) Mines and Workshops, especially when Granaries and Smokehouses are factored in. We don't want drafting to become the the default method for training units.

I say we leave drafting at Vassalage.
+100% Experience gained from Combat within own Borders and +1 from Walls is plenty for a default civic.

Clan Warfare can remain as it is in 1.18 and Mercenary Army can be no upkeep, +1 unit support cost, cheaper unit upgrades, and perhaps add something different as the third bonus so it isn't entirely about .

Agreed. I'll think of something.

I don't think I can explicitly set 'No Unit Upkeep', though I could set the number of free units to be very high. I'll have to look into it.

That would work.

Yeah, Barbarism needs to go and I think Tradition moving to the default civic position makes perfect sense. Proclamation ---> Codification ---> Jurisdiction makes for a good progression. I'll have a think about the name changes.

If you're happy with Codification and Jurisdiction, I see no reason to change them. I only wondered whether you or anyone else found them obscure. You might want to move them earlier in the tech tree, though. Many societies codified their laws in classical times and established jurisdictions with formal authority to administer justice shortly thereafter. (Jurisprudence, the study and analysis of years of established legal rulings, is a more modern tradition.)

But, yes: out with Barbarism, in with Proclamation.

With the new civics framework I coded for Corporations I should be able add any yield or commerce type to buildings. As always, we need to pair any such bonus with AI recognizable ones.

Excellent. That opens up a lot of possibilities. I'll try to have a draft up by the weekend. In the meantime, here's a change I was mulling for the Religion civics.

The religion system in HR has a few unintended consequences:

• It is always better to spread as many religions as possible in every city. More religions provide more happiness, science, gold, culture, and priest specialists, without any drawbacks. In BtS, religions are unlocked by technologies, so chasing religions is a risky business that requires sacrificing progress in other areas. That's not the case in HR: all players can unlock religions by building Cemeteries, and any early Great Person apart from a Prophet seems a waste. Not to mention: inquisitors are seemingly useless.
• Beyond that, the optimal diplomatic strategy is to avoid adopting any state religion at first, allowing religious hatred to develop between the AI leaders. Later, it's best to adopt the dominant world religion, no matter how far it has spread in your cities. This is both ahistorical (there were few premodern 'secular' societies, whose rulers explicitly followed no state religion) and imbalanced (the AI will always adopt a state religion at the first opportunity).

As I recall, Pie's Ancient Europe has a neat response to these issues which we should consider: All non-State produce 1.

This is represented in the happiness tooltip as "We demand religious freedom."
The simplest way to code it is to add "+1 per non-State " to every civic in the Religion category apart from Pluralism. Pluralism provides "No from non-State " instead.

I think this change brings many advantages:

• Founding religions becomes more of a choice, with both benefits and drawbacks.
• Adopting a state religion early, to avoid the happiness penalties, is key. Theocracy and the Religion civics are suddenly more important.
• Founding new religions is disruptive. New non-state religions cause unhappiness at first, become happiness-neutral with temples, and provide bonus happiness with great temples and the Pluralism civic.
• A city with three religions and three temples is not three times as happy but just as happy as a city with one religion and one temple. Each religious community has a place of worship and feels respected. (+1 per non-State religion is cancelled out by +1 from temple.) Only under Pluralism does the fact of religious diversity produce extra happiness. (Religious diversity is always a net plus for science and culture.)
• Religious tensions have a greater effect on diplomacy. Open Borders are an invitation for missionaries to spread foreign religions. These produce unhappiness, unless accompanied by temples - or countered with Inquisitors.
• It's another way to reduce the amount of happiness available in HR.

Thoughts?

 

[Xyth]

I say we leave drafting at Vassalage.
+100% Experience gained from Combat within own Borders and +1 from Walls is plenty for a default civic.

Good points. Agreed.

As I recall, Pie's Ancient Europe has a neat response to these issues which we should consider: All non-State produce 1.

This is represented in the happiness tooltip as "We demand religious freedom."
The simplest way to code it is to add "+1 per non-State " to every civic in the Religion category apart from Pluralism. Pluralism provides "No from non-State " instead.

I like this a lot; several issues are addressed all at once and in a simple, elegant way. Lets do it.

 

[Azoth]

Good points. Agreed.

I like this a lot; several issues are addressed all at once and in a simple, elegant way. Lets do it.

Awesome. Two questions:

1. Do you have a link to the list of standard modding options for civics in BtS? I'd like to have a complete list of which bonuses the AI will understand. I think you posted it once before...

2. Do you mind if some civics have four bonuses/penalties? Will they all fit on the civics screen? It's just that adding "+1 per non-State " to Fundamentalism and Rationalism will tip them over our informal three-bonus limit. I'm sure I can make it work either way.

 

[Xyth]

1. Do you have a link to the list of standard modding options for civics in BtS? I'd like to have a complete list of which bonuses the AI will understand. I think you posted it once before...

http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4CivicInfos

2. Do you mind if some civics have four bonuses/penalties? Will they all fit on the civics screen? It's just that adding "+1 per non-State " to Fundamentalism and Rationalism will tip them over our informal three-bonus limit. I'm sure I can make it work either way.

I think four is fine when its a category-wide effect like we're proposing for the Religion civics. They should fit on the civic screen, if not I can probably make some adjustments.

 

[Azoth]

Right, then. The first draft of the civics for 1.19:

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• +X free units
• +X free military units

Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital
• +1 from Palace

Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Medium Upkeep
• +2 per city with state
• +25% military unit production in cities with state
• Can train Missionaries without a Monastery

Feudalism
Requires Heraldry
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Castle
• No foreign trade routes
• No maintenance costs from number of cities

Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• No foreign corporations
• No maintenance costs from distance to palace

Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +10% in all cities
• +50% birth rate
• +1 from Village, Town​

Notes

• Despotism: Lots of free units and military units based on population; effectively, no support cost for units. "+X free units" handles ordinary unit support costs. "+X free military units" handles added unit support costs from Mercenaries civic. Thus, in flavour terms, despots are more likely to hire mercenaries.
• Monarchy: "+1 from Palace" replaces the innate happiness bonus from the building.
• Theocracy: Returns to Medium Upkeep and picks up "Can train Missionaries without a Monastery." It's a natural fit: under Theocracy, the government sponsors missionaries. It also avoids the question: If Orthodoxy allows missionaries, why not Fundamentalism?
• Feudalism: Suggested name change from "Aristocracy, requires Nobility" to "Feudalism, requires Heraldry." Aristocracy and Nobility mean nearly the same thing and are not specific to the early medieval era. Feudalism is a distinct form of government and Heraldry a specific social advance. (A few technologies could stand to drop Heraldry as a prerequisite, thus resolving the bottleneck at that point in the tree.) Also: "No foreign trade routes" is intended as a flavour penalty for reduced city maintenance.
• Confederation: Extra production from Fishing Boats and Harvest Boats is a more interesting maritime bonus than extra happy from Harbours. Like Feudalism, "No foreign corporations" is intended as a flavour penalty for reduced city maintenance.
• Democracy: Returns to High Upkeep and picks up "+10%" instead of a specialist bonus. Across the civics, there are five such bonuses: one +10% science, one +10% gold, one +25% espionage, and two +25% culture.

--- LAW ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in X largest cities
• +100% Great General emergence within own borders
• +50% in capital

Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• No non-state spread
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city
• +1 per specialist

Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +10% in all cities
• +50% in capital

Jurisprudence
Requires Civil Liberties
High Upkeep
• +2 from corporations
• +1 per specialist
• +2 from Courthouse

Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +2 from Civic Square
• Happiness penalty for civs without Equal Rights​

Notes
Completely redesigned column.

• Tradition: Culture bonus helps resist border pressure in the early game.
• Proclamation: New civic. Note that bonus espionage in capital competes with bonus culture in capital at Codification.
• Authoritarianism: "No non-state spread" is a much more interesting penalty than reduced Great People birth rate. As always, it forbids natural spread and foreign missionaries but still allows domestic missionaries. Authoritarian states take great care to limit the spread of ideas in their cities. Since all the other civics in this category have been strengthened, I don't think a stronger penalty is necessary.
• Codification: Improves tax collection (bonus gold in all cities) and leaves behind a legacy of law making (bonus culture in the capital.)
• Jurisprudence: Minor name change to Jurisprudence, a better name for the late game. The corporation bonuses have been reshuffled: sound Jurisprudence leads to lower corporate corruption, hence more commerce. Note that bonus science from specialists competes with bonus espionage from specialists at Authoritarianism.
• Equal Rights: Now, the only civic with free specialists, with an added flavour bonus from Civic Squares.

 

[Azoth]

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience points
• +1 from Oasis

Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Pasture
• +1 from Farm
• +1 in all cities

Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 50% faster
• +1 from Workshop

Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• +2 in all cities
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 from corporations

Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 from Village, Town
• No from Corporations
• Can spend wealth to finish production​

Notes
Most civics are unchanged.

• Tribalism: Bonus experience on units, to terrorize the 'sedentary' civilizations under Agrarianism, Slavery, and Caste System. Plus, a flavour bonus on Oases.
• Agrarianism: Upkeep raised to Medium to match Slavery and Caste System, making for a bigger contrast with Tribalism.
• Industrialism: Industrialization is associated with a major population boom in urban centres; hence, bonus food from corporations. Bonus production from corporations moves to Free Market, so that Industrialism isn't only about production, and Free Market isn't only about commerce.

--- ECONOMY ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Kiln, Tannery
• +8 from Palace

Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Camp, Mine
• +1 from Granary

Barter
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 per city
• +1 from Orchard, Workshop
• +2 from Market

Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +100% in capital
• +1 from Lumbermill, Watermill

Free Market
Requires Economics
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50% from
• +2 from Corporations

Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +100% in capital
• No from corporations
• +2 from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve​

Notes

• Reciprocity: Negates the health penalty from the Kiln and Tannery, as these still operate on a small scale. Like Monarchy, "+8 from Palace" is intended to replace the innate bonus from the building.
• Barter: Name change to Barter, for a nice contrast with other civics in the category: gift economy (Reciprocity) and command economy (Redistribution). No society relied exclusively on barter, but the name captures the flavour of the civic: a society that encourages labourers to specialize and exchange goods, instead of relying on the land or the court.
• Free Market: Free Markets make corporations more efficient, hence the production bonus. Upkeep raised to High to compensate.
• Environmentalism: Bonus science in capital competes with bonus gold in capital at Bureaucracy.

 

[Azoth]

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Walls
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders

Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
High Upkeep
• Military units can be produced with
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

Mercenaries
Requires Employment
No Upkeep
• +1 support cost per military unit
• -50% upgrade cost for military units
• No war

Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft X units each turn
• +25% in all cities
• +2 from Fort

Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Barracks
• +25% military unit production
• +25% in all cities

Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• New units receive +4 experience points
• +100% Great General emergence​

Notes

• Clan Warfare: I think "military units can be produced with " deserves another try. Changes to improvements have reduced the availability of food and production in the early game. And with High Upkeep and no other recognizable bonus, I think the AI won't be too attached to it. We can always add a penalty such as "-25% military unit production" (which would only affect production from ) if it still feels too strong.
• Mercenaries: No war weariness moves here, which seems logical. But the price for zero war weariness is steep: 1 per military unit. It can easily hit 20-30 gold per turn by the time Employment is discovered, whereas even High Upkeep costs would only amount to 8-10 gold per turn at that time. So I still think No Upkeep is justified.
• Vassalage: The only civic that enables drafting. Loses bonus happiness from Castle to Feudalism but picks up bonus commerce from Forts.
• Standing Army: Now offers +4 experience points to compensate for its lost third bonus.

--- RELIGION---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Cemetery
• +1 in cities with state religion
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Orthodoxy
Requires Divination
High Upkeep
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster
• +1 per specialist
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• +2 experience points in cities with state religion
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +50% in cities with state religion
• +3 in cities with state religion
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +5 in cities with state religion
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religion
• +1 per specialist​

Notes
Category wide effect added. No civic exceeds three bonuses anyway, so that's not a problem.

• Paganism: Early religions celebrated fertility and the harvest, hence bonus food from state religion. It also gives players an incentive to pick a state religion earlier rather than later.
• Orthodoxy: Bonus gold from specialists makes the most sense here, as a tithe. Competes with bonus culture from specialists at Pluralism.
• Fundamentalism: Loses "No non-state religion spread" to Authoritarianism. Fundamentalist movements are often inspired by the presence of religious minorities in their midst. If they want to be rid of heretics, they should use Inquisitors. Also: we still need to find a different icon for this civic.
• Altruism: Picks up bonus health from state religion and falls to Low Upkeep.
• Rationalism: Bonus research from state religion ensures that every civic in this category has a religion-related bonus. Bonus science from specialists had too much synergy with Unlimited Scientists anyway. Upkeep is reduced to Medium. Flavour bonus from Schools can be added back, but it's not necessary.
• Pluralism: A better spot for bonus culture from specialists, I think.

 

[Nightstar]

Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• +2 experience points in cities with state religion
• +1 per non-state religion in a city

Loses "No non-state religion spread" to Authoritarianism. Fundamentalist movements are often inspired by the presence of religious minorities in their midst. If they want to be rid of heretics, they should use Inquisitors.

If we don't mind having four "bonuses" on this one, what would you think of this:

Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• Can train Inquisitors without Holy Office
• +2 experience points in cities with state religion
• +2 per non-state religion in a city

So minority religions create additional unrest, but the problem is also more easily "corrected".

 

[Simon_Jester]

Problem one: the AI will see +2 unhappiness per non-state religion as a very serious drawback, and may avoid Theocracy.

Problem two: "No spread of non-state religion" in the new system isn't a disadvantage, not really. Under many circumstances, you're better off preventing the spread of non-state religions, to keep happiness up. So that's a problem with Authoritarianism.

 

[Xyth]

As usual, some things I really like and a few things I'm not so keen on. I've had a busy couple days but I've started working on a second draft in response. Just a couple quick comments for now.

Theocracy: Returns to Medium Upkeep and picks up "Can train Missionaries without a Monastery." It's a natural fit: under Theocracy, the government sponsors missionaries. It also avoids the question: If Orthodoxy allows missionaries, why not Fundamentalism?

This is a really good change.

Feudalism: Suggested name change from "Aristocracy, requires Nobility" to "Feudalism, requires Heraldry." Aristocracy and Nobility mean nearly the same thing and are not specific to the early medieval era. Feudalism is a distinct form of government and Heraldry a specific social advance.

I've avoided 'Feudalism' as a civic or a tech for the same reason I've avoided 'Capitalism' or 'Communism'. These don't fit into a single civic category, they span several. I think Aristocracy is the best name for the civic; 'Oligarchy' is probably the other candidate but I don't think it captures it quite as well.

Nobility is a poor name for a tech, I agree, but I don't feel Heraldry is the right replacement. It's a bit too specific and associated with certain cultures. What about 'Title'?

 

[Keinpferd]

Nobility is a poor name for a tech, I agree, but I don't feel Heraldry is the right replacement. It's a bit too specific and associated with certain cultures.

But so is Writing. Or Currency. Or Elephant Taming, or… There are countless examples of culture specific things, that can't easily be "neutralized" and made equal in terms of anti-eurocentrism.

When I was watching an episode of Game of Thrones lately, I noticed a scene, in which a noble introduces herself to somebody, who at once starts to associate heraldic colors and symbols to that family name. That brought to my attention, how important heraldry must have been in a medieval consciousness as a means to map the social.

What about 'Title'?

"Title" is indeed very universal, but too general, just like you wouldn't make water a Civ ressource. Even interexchanged family relative's names like uncle or aunt are in a way titles, that are reimbursed, so to say, in exchange for a girl or boy that is given to the other family in a marriage agreement. Probaly, "titles" were used by stone age societies already. "Biggie", "Blacky", "Umpf" as offices rather than nicknames.

 

[Azoth]

As usual, some things I really like and a few things I'm not so keen on. I've had a busy couple days but I've started working on a second draft in response. Just a couple quick comments for now.

I'm in the same boat, myself. I'm happy with some things: missionaries at Theocracy, wealth from specialists at Orthodoxy, bonus science in the capital at Environmentalism, bonus unit experience at Tribalism, the swapped corporation bonuses for Industrialism/Free Market/Jurisprudence, and the new Law category in general. Others I'm less sure of: the new Clan Warfare and Mercenaries civics (which are a good idea I'd like to test in game), moving bonus science from specialists away from Rationalism, and attaching Palace bonuses to Monarchy/Reciprocity. I'm still not happy with Aristocracy/Confederation. I don't think the penalties will be much fun. The trouble is that reduced city maintenance is so powerful that the civics become all about the cost savings, with little to distinguish them further. Not to mention: no maintenance from number of cities is much more powerful than no maintenance from distance to palace. Number of cities inevitably rises as empires grow, while distance to palace can be controlled with sound placement of the Seasonal Palace and possibly Versailles. As with Democracy, I think improvement bonuses are a good option for Aristocracy/Confederation: if it isn't Orchards/Watermills, it might be Forts/Fishing Boats. What else, though?

Nobility is a poor name for a tech, I agree, but I don't feel Heraldry is the right replacement. It's a bit too specific and associated with certain cultures. What about 'Title'?

How about Genealogy? Medieval societies placed great importance on family history and tracing lineage. It's specific, sure, and might be associated with certain cultures more than others, but it's also a universal impulse. (The family trees of the prophets Mohammed and Confucius are quite extensive and interesting.) Frankly, I'm still keen on Heraldry, but as a replacement for Stirrups, enabling Knights. Heraldry was quite widespread if interpreted broadly: not only the making of coats of arms, but crowns, flags, and seals. Maybe the word needs changing? How about Insignia? Stirrups is a bit too specific in my mind, a military advance like 'The Crossbow' or 'Entrenchment,' too narrow for the grand scale of History Rewritten. (And Title I'd probably lump together with Property.)

 

[Simon_Jester]

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to completely purge Eurocentrism from a game like this. Because the whole idea of modeling civilization as a linear progression from Stone Age beginnings through Iron Age middle to post-Industrial Age end is very typically European. For a lot of other cultures, 'history' looks more like: "Develop some stuff. Get invaded by foreigners who come with other, scary and possibly advanced stuff. Throw them out, repeat process."

Civilization doesn't replicate that. It assumes that the power and resources of your society will keep increasing along a monotonic curve throughout history, and that at all times the 'protagonist' societies will be independent and militarily strong. The struggle of your society to redefine and rebuild its own native institutions, in the wake of imperialism and the light of the new technology and ideas the imperialists brought with them, is just not something the game is well equipped for.

And since we can't change the game drastically enough to get rid of that, we might as well accept that some of our ideas are going to be strongly associated with certain cultures. "Scientific Revolution" and "Charter" are very Eurocentric tech names, for example. "Land Tenure" is largely a European concept. The idea of "Equal Rights" is arguably West-centric too; that's where it originated and in a lot of other places it hasn't really caught on.

Once we get out of physical technologies (like "The Crossbow,") it's very hard to define all social progress without using at least SOME words that reference specific interesting things that happened in specific societies.

 

[Azoth]

As usual, some things I really like and a few things I'm not so keen on. I've had a busy couple days but I've started working on a second draft in response. Just a couple quick comments for now.

While we wait for your second draft, I thought we could begin on the second half of the civics overhaul: updating favourite civics.

Here are the favourite civics, as of 1.18:

--- GOVERNMENT ---
Despotism: Tiglathpileser (0 +1)
Monarchy: Arp Arslan, Amanirena, Brian Boru, Casimir, Clovis, Corvin Matyas, Joao, Knut, Le Loi, Peter, Piye, Ramkhamhaeng, Yekaterina (16 -4)
Theocracy: Abu Bakr, Lalibela, Musa, Songtsen Gampo, Suleiman (7 -2)
Aristocracy: Herod, Julius Caesar, Maximilian, Robert the Bruce (4)
Confederation: Hiawatha, Logan, Sundjata, Willem van Oranje (4)
Democracy: Churchill, De Gaulle, Kossuth, Pericles, Washington (5)

--- LAW ---
Tradition: Cetshwayo, Kamehameha, Po'pay (5 -2)
Proclamation: Ashurbanipal, Hatshepsut, Nebuchadnezzar, Solomon (0 +4)
Authoritarianism: Qin Shi Huang, Shaka, Stalin, Timur (3 +1)
Codification: Hammurabi, Justinian, Napoleon (0 +3)
Jurisdiction: Askiya, Bismarck, Corvin Matyas, Elizabeth, Lincoln, Yaroslav (9 -3)
Equal Rights: Ataturk, Nzinga, Salamasina (3)

--- LABOUR ---
Tribalism: Tin Hinan (0 +1)
Agrarianism: Huayna Capac, Jayavarman, Trung Sisters (6 -3)
Slavery: Djoser, Montezuma, Yaqub al-Mansur (2 +1)
Caste System: Asoka, Chandragupta, Wang Kon (3)
Industrialism: Meiji, Nasser, Victoria (2 +1)
Social Welfare: Haile Selassie, Roosevelt (0 +2)

--- ECONOMY ---
Reciprocity: Kochininako (0 +1)
Redistribution: Ho Chi Minh, Mao Zedong (1 +1)
Professionalism: Filipe, Hattusili, Hayam Wuruk, Henrique (6 -2)
Bureaucracy: Harun Al-Rashid, Louis, Wu (2 +1)
Free Market: Abu'l Mawahib, Argantonio, Dharmasetu, Dido, Hiram, Kadphises, Michiel de Ruyter, Ragnar, Shehe Mvita (10 -1)
Environmentalism: Sitting Bull (1)

--- MILITARY ---
Militia: Boudica, Shammuramat (0 +2)
Clan Warfare: Attila, Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan, Te Rauparaha, Vercingetorix, Viriato (6)
Mercenaries: Ramesses (0 +1)
Vassalage: Darius, El Cid, Karolus, Khosrau, Mehmed, Pachacuti, Rajendra, Sargon, Sobieski, Suppiluliuma (12 -2)
Warrior Code: Crazy Horse, Jingu, Leonidas, Saladin, Tokugawa (5)
Standing Army: Alexander, Augustus, Hannibal, Marcus Aurelius, Scipio (6 -1)
[Conscription]: (1 -1)

--- RELIGION---
Paganism: Agamemnon, Topiltzin (0 +2)
Orthodoxy: Gilgamesh, Joshua, Kanishka, Mbemba, Pacal, Suryavarman, Xoc (11 -4)
Fundamentalism: Isabella, Richard (1 +1)
Altruism: Ezana, Gandhi, Lobsan Gyatso (3)
Rationalism: Frederick, Mongkut, Sejong, Taizong (3 +1)
Pluralism: Akbar, Constantine, Cyrus, Mangammal (3 +1)

A few thoughts:

• We don't need to spread out favourite civics evenly but it would be nice to have some more variety. It seems odd that Jurisdiction is the favourite of nine leaders and Codification, of none.
• Now that starting civics provide bonuses, they are valid choices for favourite civics. Our two new civics, Proclamation and Mercenaries, could also use some attention.
• Favourite civics should be era-appropriate. Free Market, with its corporation bonus, is a modern civic. It sits uneasily with all those classical and medieval leaders.

Suggestions are welcome! I'll edit this post with all the changes, marked in blue. I'll post again when all the changes have been made.
I'm thinking of going with an informal rule that no two leaders of the same civilization can have the same favourite civic. (It won't work for some civs but that's fine.)


NOTES:

1. I assume "Tiglathpileser" refers to Tiglath Pileser the Third, who is the most famous king of that name, and whose portrait matches the leaderhead. The Civilopedia stub identifies him as Tiglath Pileser the First, but the full entry has yet to be written so there may be some mistake.
2. Again, I am not sure if "Hattusili" refers to Hattusili the First, the earliest known Hittite king, or Hattusili the Third, better known for his victory in the Battle of Kadesh and his peace treaty with Ramesses II. I assume the latter.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Justinian's an obvious choice for Codification; he wrote the summation of Roman law as we now know it. He's not as much of a legendary lawgiver as Hammurabi, but he's not that far off the mark. Jurisdiction has too many leaders.

Solomon is also an obvious choice for Codification, because he too is a legendary lawgiver. Orthodoxy has way too many leaders.


Xyth is clearly using "Free Market" as a stand-in for 'mercantile' ancient leaders. I agree that it doesn't mesh well to have ancient leaders loving a modern civic. But that's kind of imposed by the mod: Xyth has far more ancient leaders than modern ones.


El Cid should arguably favor "Mercenaries;" he was a mercenary for much of his life, switching sides on multiple occasions. If "Mercenaries" is impractical for large aggressive armies then that's a problem I guess. Darn.


There's no obvious reason Gilgamesh should favor Orthodoxy; he's a mythological hero-king, not a man famous for codifying the Sumerian religion. Likewise for Hatshepsut, who didn't really change or formalize the underlying religious code of her society. There are probably a few other candidates who raise the same issue.


Marcus Aurelius was a good general, but history doesn't remember him as a warlord so much as it remembers him as a philosopher and statesman. Perhaps he should have a different favored civic, like Rationalism (the Stoics were among the most logic-oriented of the ancient philosophical schools).


Basically, I agree with Azoth that we should spread things around more.

 

[Xyth]

Favourite Civic suggestions look good so far, keep them coming. They've been assigned fairly haphazardly to date so an overhaul is a good idea.

Still working on a 2nd draft of 1.19 civics. Has been a very busy week and I've not had as much time to devote to HR as usual. Things settling down though.