Feedback: Civilizations

[Eucalyptus]

Have you ever considered giving mesoamerican cultures, and perhaps other equatorial civilizations, a unique technology that allows them to work jungles more efficiently. The Maya and Aztec lived in dense equatorial jungles and as the mod stands they would be choked to death until the invention of iron to clear the trees?

Maybe this was the case historically --- they really were choked until they developed iron working.

 

[tchristensen]

Mayans lacked metal tools, they use obsidian a crystal rock as hard as the iron, and shaper than today's steel surgical blades for their tools to carve the lime stone in blocks to build their cities, and for their weapons, such as, mazes, arrow and lance heads, as well as ritual knives.

The wheel was used only for toys, nor did they ever use pack animals for portage.

They created cities larger than any city in Europe at that time. All of this was in the heart of deep rainforests and jungle.

 

[Eucalyptus]

Mayans lacked metal tools, they use obsidian a crystal rock as hard as the iron, and shaper than today's steel surgical blades for their tools to carve the lime stone in blocks to build their cities, and for their weapons, such as, mazes, arrow and lance heads, as well as ritual knives.

The wheel was used only for toys, nor did they ever use pack animals for portage.

They created cities larger than any city in Europe at that time. All of this was in the heart of deep rainforests and jungle.

Yes, my bad. This is as I've read except that they probably couldn't use Obsidian to work Limestone --- that was presumably done with stone tools. (Amazing!) I presume that they used Obsidian to clear rainforest. (More amazing!)

So ... perhaps they were choked until they developed Obsidian Working.

 

[Xyth]

Have you ever considered giving mesoamerican cultures, and perhaps other equatorial civilizations, a unique technology that allows them to work jungles more efficiently. The Maya and Aztec lived in dense equatorial jungles and as the mod stands they would be choked to death until the invention of iron to clear the trees?

I know you can give unique technologies to civilizations and wonder if you ever thought of adding them for such an instance? Perhaps allows cutting of jungle from the start of the game. I could also see them being able to build chinampas in jungle tiles with an added food bonus?[/QUOTE]

I balance HR around random maps and this really only a problem on real world maps. I would consider something along these lines if I were to introduce Civ-specific abilities like in Civ5. Not a priority at this time though.

Jungle in HR is a much more useful terrain than it is in BTS too.


EDIT: I could attach such abilities to UBs and/or UWs instead, I need to review their bonuses at some point. Not in the scope of 1.19 though.

What are your thoughts of replacing the standard monument for a stelae for the Mayans?

Stelae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_stelae

No, there are already plenty of monument replacements. Although Ball Courts were built by Mesoamerican civilizations other than the Maya, they are much more iconic and interesting. As a purely cosmetic change, sure, if the art exists.

 

[Absolution]

Have you ever considered giving mesoamerican cultures, and perhaps other equatorial civilizations, a unique technology that allows them to work jungles more efficiently. The Maya and Aztec lived in dense equatorial jungles and as the mod stands they would be choked to death until the invention of iron to clear the trees?

I know you can give unique technologies to civilizations and wonder if you ever thought of adding them for such an instance? Perhaps allows cutting of jungle from the start of the game. I could also see them being able to build chinampas in jungle tiles with an added food bonus?

If you give the Mesoamericans a Civ5-styled ability, than you'd have to give one to every civilization.
And this is where you would be able to give the Phoenicians an ability to pass through peaks.
But is this kind of modding even possible?

 

[Absolution]

What about adding some Hellenistic leaders?
I think the dynamic city list can make it possible to add Seleucus, Antiochus, Cleopatra, or Menander to the Greek civilization.

 

[ales_]

What about adding some Hellenistic leaders?
I think the dynamic city list can make it possible to add Seleucus, Antiochus, Cleopatra, or Menander to the Greek civilization.

Greece already has 4 leaders. It's the limit in HR.

 

[Absolution]

So maybe Hellenistic civilization?
Historically, it is sometimes considered a civilization..

 

[Nightstar]

Too many European civs already.

 

[Xyth]

If you give the Mesoamericans a Civ5-styled ability, than you'd have to give one to every civilization.

Yes, and it's not a priority any time soon.

And this is where you would be able to give the Phoenicians an ability to pass through peaks.
But is this kind of modding even possible?

Passing through mountains is probably possible to code but would cause SEVERE performance degradation. Code that alters where units are able or unable to move is only feasible with the SDK, and thus not an option for HR.

What about adding some Hellenistic leaders?
I think the dynamic city list can make it possible to add Seleucus, Antiochus, Cleopatra, or Menander to the Greek civilization.

Greece already has 4 leaders. It's the limit in HR.

So maybe Hellenistic civilization?
Historically, it is sometimes considered a civilization..

Too many European civs already.

There's currently just 13 unused trait combinations remaining in HR, for both existing and potential new civilizations. Greece is already very well represented by its 4 leaders, and to certain degree, by the Byzantine civilization as well. We can't cover every interesting period of a civilization's history and diversity is one of my key design goals for HR. As such, I feel there are higher priorities than expanding the Greeks any further.

Incidentally, some very high quality Kushan unit art has just been released. Much of the unit art (and even a leaderhead) that I currently use for the Kushan civilization is actually Khazar. So if I can find suitable leader and building art to round things out, a Khazar civ may well be coming in 1.19. The Khazar will fill an interesting historical and geographical gap in HR, not to mention another civilization with Judaism as it's favourite religion.

 

[Absolution]

It can be interesting, and there are other civs which can fill that geographical gap: Scythians, Kipchaks..

 

[tchristensen]

Consider changing the Incan Empire to the Tawantinsuyu as that is the real name of the civilization. Inca means King, but the silly Spanish misunderstood and gave that name to the entire culture. Refer in general to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire

I guess it would be like calling the United States the Presidents or the English the Prime Ministers?!?

 

[tchristensen]

For some ideas on adding new civilizations, I suggest reading this engaging article on disappearing cultures: http://io9.com/5928085/10-civilizations-that-disappeared-under-mysterious-circumstances

I would very much like to see a Cahokian culture or a Niyan culture?

A bit sketchy on details, yet so interesting to ponder what these people were like.

 

[Xyth]

Consider changing the Incan Empire to the Tawantinsuyu as that is the real name of the civilization. Inca means King, but the silly Spanish misunderstood and gave that name to the entire culture. Refer in general to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire

I guess it would be like calling the United States the Presidents or the English the Prime Ministers?!?

I believe Tawantinsuyu is the name of the land, but Inty or Runa the name of the people. While I try to use native names in many areas of HR, the name of the civs themselves somehow feel better when using their familiar titles (in English). Egypt vs. Kemet, Germany vs. Deutschland, Japan vs Nihon, etc. Will think about it though.

For some ideas on adding new civilizations, I suggest reading this engaging article on disappearing cultures: http://io9.com/5928085/10-civilizations-that-disappeared-under-mysterious-circumstances

I would very much like to see a Cahokian culture or a Niyan culture?

A bit sketchy on details, yet so interesting to ponder what these people were like.

Cahokia/Mississippi is on the wishlist, it's the one North American civilization remaining that I think meets all the necessary criteria. Niya is a single city rather than a civilization itself. It and its neighbours in the Tarim Basin were Tocharian/Yuezhi cities, the predecessors of the Kushan, and are represented in HR by that civilization (Kadphises in particular).

As for the others listed, the Mayans, Angkor, and Easter Island are in HR already. Catalhöyük, Göbekli Tepe, and Nabta Playa are Neolithic sites and, while absolutely fascinating, we know next to nothing about the people who built them. The Minaret of Jam is an odd inclusion, since it's well known who built it (the Ghurid dynasty) and what happened to its city (the Mongols destroyed it). The Indus civilization would be great to add, but there's not a lot to go on when trying to choose leaders, UUs, etc.

 

[Xyth]

I'm considering merging Sumer and Amurru into one civ, Mesopotamia. All 4 leaders would remain, with appropriate capitals assigned. UB would be the Ziggurat, UW the Epic of Gilgamesh (Ishtar Gate would be promoted to World Wonder). UUs would be the Onager Cart (Chariot), and either the Sab Qassi (Archer) or Kiskuttu (Axeman). The Vulture is an invented unit anyway, so I feel little desire to preserve it.

I never liked Sumer and Babylon being civilizations along side each other; Babylon is really just a later phase in the history of Sumer and Akkad. I refocused Babylon as Amurru, in an effort to make it feel more distinct but, other than the city list, I don't feel I've really achieved this that well. I realize 'Mesopotamia' could technically include Assyria, but I don't think there's any merit in merging them as well as their history and culture is considerably more distinct.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I like the idea, but not the name.
Also, about Assyria - What's the second UU? If the merged civ gets the Kiskuttu, then Assyria could have an archer UU. Ashur and many of their leaders are depicted with a bow in hand.

 

[Xyth]

I like the idea, but not the name.

I'm not sure what works better. Suggestions welcomed.

Also, about Assyria - What's the second UU? If the merged civ gets the Kiskuttu, then Assyria could have an archer UU. Ashur and many of their leaders are depicted with a bow in hand.

Currently the Redu, a spearman replacement.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Currently the Redu, a spearman replacement.

A googling of Redu and Assyria provides the thread where you found the civ. The creator gives no explanation of what it is. I suppose he might've been thinking of something Tiglath-Pileser III introduced into the army, but an archer would make more sense.
Here, it says that archers were usually the dominant infantry in Assyrian armies, so giving Assyria the now-civless archer unit would probably work. Perhaps it could have a bonus against cities?

 

[Xyth]

A googling of Redu and Assyria provides the thread where you found the civ. The creator gives no explanation of what it is. I suppose he might've been thinking of something Tiglath-Pileser III introduced into the army, but an archer would make more sense.
Here, it says that archers were usually the dominant infantry in Assyrian armies, so giving Assyria the now-civless archer unit would probably work. Perhaps it could have a bonus against cities?

'Redu' is the Assyrian name for a type of spear their soldiers used, I looked it up in a textbook. I've no qualms giving the Assyrians an archer UU instead though, just need to find a suitable name. There are currently about twice as many Spearman UUs than Archer UUs in 1.20 so it would balance out better.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

'Redu' is the Assyrian name for a type of spear their soldiers used, I looked it up in a textbook. I've no qualms giving the Assyrians an archer UU instead though, just need to find a suitable name. There are currently about twice as many Spearman UUs than Archer UUs in 1.20 so it would balance out better.

Zuk Shepi? It was a broad term for infantry, but since archers pretty much were the infantry, it could work.