There was no suitable art for Gajah Mada at the time. Not sure if there has been any since.
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- Thread starter Xyth
- Start date
There was no suitable art for Gajah Mada at the time. Not sure if there has been any since.
Absolution
King
The art of Dharmasetu can be fine for him.
I couldn't find any pictures of Dharmasetu, so he could use any other... maybe the current Hayam Wuruk's.
I couldn't find any pictures of Dharmasetu, so he could use any other... maybe the current Hayam Wuruk's.
ales_
Heir
I found a thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467504) of the same author whose thread you considered interesting here: forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10669497&postcount=1202.
It lists a rather complete list of civs. I decided to check which civs are already represented (by a leader). This can be used to determine which civs to add, redesign or which leaders can be added. Here is the list in this order:
Civilization in the thread: Leader (Civilization in the mod).
It lists a rather complete list of civs. I decided to check which civs are already represented (by a leader). This can be used to determine which civs to add, redesign or which leaders can be added. Here is the list in this order:
Civilization in the thread: Leader (Civilization in the mod).
Spoiler :
ales_
Heir
Sorry, it's difficult to have such a big post. I'll continue here.
Here are the civs which aren't represented by any leader:
Jericho
Çatalhöyük
the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture
the Canaanites
the Meluhhans
the Jiroft civilization
the Elamites
the Norte Chico civilization
the Minoans
the Hurrians
the Olmecs
the Vedic civilization
the Anatolians
the Aramaeans
the Caucasians
the Sabaeans
the Chavín
the Etruscans
the Hellenistic civilization
the Nabataeans
the Teotihuacan civilization
the Burmese
the Nazca
the Moche
the Tiwanaku civilization
the Huari
the Olmec-Xicalanca
the Hausa
the Mississippians
the Chimú
the Mixtecs
the Italians
the Tatars
the Kanem-Bornu
the Zimbabweans
the Jurchen
the Balts
the Edo
the Yoruba
the Ashanti
the Dahomey
the Cherokee
Here are the civs which aren't represented by any leader:
Jericho
Çatalhöyük
the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture
the Canaanites
the Meluhhans
the Jiroft civilization
the Elamites
the Norte Chico civilization
the Minoans
the Hurrians
the Olmecs
the Vedic civilization
the Anatolians
the Aramaeans
the Caucasians
the Sabaeans
the Chavín
the Etruscans
the Hellenistic civilization
the Nabataeans
the Teotihuacan civilization
the Burmese
the Nazca
the Moche
the Tiwanaku civilization
the Huari
the Olmec-Xicalanca
the Hausa
the Mississippians
the Chimú
the Mixtecs
the Italians
the Tatars
the Kanem-Bornu
the Zimbabweans
the Jurchen
the Balts
the Edo
the Yoruba
the Ashanti
the Dahomey
the Cherokee
ales_
Heir
Yes, it's best to type long posts elsewhere and copy-paste them here.
Absolution
King
That list has been discussed alot, and was well criticized, as any other individual claim in the World History forum...
I this context, the list is too comprehensive and includes some realy small and insignificant cultures, or maybe even some wrong inclusions, but it can be useful to try and locate the important ones that are missing in HR.
And talking about lists, I am working of a project of a list of civs and leaders who I think need to be added to CivIV.
Once in a while I share some of it here, as suggestions.
Considering Xyth's posts in this thread and in other threads, my suggestions for now are these:
- Brazil's current leaders represent the natives and the protuguese/colonialists. A third leader to represent the Afro-Brazilians is what left, and Zumbi dos Palmares (Cha|Tact) can be good. However, I couldn't find any suitable art.
- A more recent Moroccan leader, to represent modern North Africa which is completely neglected in the game. Maybe as part of the Berber civ.
It can be Ahmad I al-Mansur (Imp|Dip) or Ismail Ibn Sharif (Agg|Dip).
- More medieval Chinese leader. Wu represents the same era of Taizong.
So replacing her and maybe adding another one can be good. My suggestions are Hongwu, Yongle, or Kangxi. But finding an art for Kangxi will be hard.
Another option is the gap between Qin and Tang. Many Han emperors can be good for the purpose.
- A Burmese civilization! It can be Anawratha (Exp|Spi), Razdarit (Tact|Org), Bayinnaung (Imp|Pro), Alaungpaya (Cha|Org), and many more...
- A Welsh leader for the Celts: Llywelyn I, Hywel ap Cadell, or Rhys ap Gruffydd can be good.
- An Italian leader: if you plan to add an Italian leader to the Roman civilization, than it can be Lorenzo de' Medici (Crea|Phi). If you want to add an Italian civ, Odoacer and Camili Benso can also be added.
- As I have already mentioned before - Menelik II for Ethiopia.
- Maybe an Afghan civilization. It can be Sher Shah Suri (Org|Enter), Mir Wais Hotak (Cha|Trad) (which will be hard to find an art for), or Ahmad Shah Durrani (Agg|Imp?).
Or, on account of the Afghans you can add the Punjabs, with Ranjit Singh (Spi|Imp/Trad).
- A division of India is neccessary in my opinion, but it is very complexed for now.
- It might be also good to represent the Mamluks in a way.
I this context, the list is too comprehensive and includes some realy small and insignificant cultures, or maybe even some wrong inclusions, but it can be useful to try and locate the important ones that are missing in HR.
And talking about lists, I am working of a project of a list of civs and leaders who I think need to be added to CivIV.
Once in a while I share some of it here, as suggestions.
Considering Xyth's posts in this thread and in other threads, my suggestions for now are these:
- Brazil's current leaders represent the natives and the protuguese/colonialists. A third leader to represent the Afro-Brazilians is what left, and Zumbi dos Palmares (Cha|Tact) can be good. However, I couldn't find any suitable art.
- A more recent Moroccan leader, to represent modern North Africa which is completely neglected in the game. Maybe as part of the Berber civ.
It can be Ahmad I al-Mansur (Imp|Dip) or Ismail Ibn Sharif (Agg|Dip).
- More medieval Chinese leader. Wu represents the same era of Taizong.
So replacing her and maybe adding another one can be good. My suggestions are Hongwu, Yongle, or Kangxi. But finding an art for Kangxi will be hard.
Another option is the gap between Qin and Tang. Many Han emperors can be good for the purpose.
- A Burmese civilization! It can be Anawratha (Exp|Spi), Razdarit (Tact|Org), Bayinnaung (Imp|Pro), Alaungpaya (Cha|Org), and many more...
- A Welsh leader for the Celts: Llywelyn I, Hywel ap Cadell, or Rhys ap Gruffydd can be good.
- An Italian leader: if you plan to add an Italian leader to the Roman civilization, than it can be Lorenzo de' Medici (Crea|Phi). If you want to add an Italian civ, Odoacer and Camili Benso can also be added.
- As I have already mentioned before - Menelik II for Ethiopia.
- Maybe an Afghan civilization. It can be Sher Shah Suri (Org|Enter), Mir Wais Hotak (Cha|Trad) (which will be hard to find an art for), or Ahmad Shah Durrani (Agg|Imp?).
Or, on account of the Afghans you can add the Punjabs, with Ranjit Singh (Spi|Imp/Trad).
- A division of India is neccessary in my opinion, but it is very complexed for now.
- It might be also good to represent the Mamluks in a way.
Yeah, 'civilization' is quite a nebulous term and difficult to apply consistently. In the context of choosing civs for a mod a fair amount of inconsistency is generally permitted for the sake of practicality. Not so good when making a comprehensive list for historical debate. He made some odd decisions for sure, but overall it was a pretty good effort. Pity the discussion got so aggressive so quickly.
Yes, many of those listed I wouldn't even try to represent in HR. But it (and ales_'s notations) certainly help highlight the gaps that are worth filling.
Sounds good, I look forward to seeing it.
I read about him when putting the Brazilian civ together. I agree he would be an interesting leader, will keep an eye out for suitable art.
I'm all for adding another, if not two more, leaders to the Berbers. Maybe one modern and one ancient, a Numidian or even Garamatan leader perhaps. Art availability will dictate which.
I'm actually thinking of keeping Wu and repurposing Taizong as someone else. Taizong was by far the more important of the two, but there is surprisingly little art for medieval Chinese leaders. Taizong's art is generic enough that it could work as a different emperor, while Wu's obviously will not. Either way, I'd add a 5th leader to China as well if I can.
I definitely want to add Burma at some point.
Yes. With two new traits coming there'll be room.
Lorenzo de' Medici is my pick as well. I still plan to drop one of the current Roman leaders to make room for him, in addition to adding a 5th leader. Was thinking Garibaldi or Cavour, but now quite tempted to add a Venetian leader instead.
Yes. I'm definitely going to shuffle Ethiopia's leaders around a bit.
A Pashtun/Afghan civ crosses over a fair bit with HR's Kushan civ. The Pashtun might even be descendants of the Kushan according to some theories. I'd need to read up more.
I'm still not convinced this is necessary, beyond the current division into India and Dravida (what the Tamil are being redefined as in 1.21). More leaders can be added to both.
The Mamluks are quite a strange chapter in history. Kind of a civilization, yet not really civilization. I don't wish to add them as a seperate civ, but I don't really see a Mamluk leader fitting anywhere easily either.
Absolution
King
For the Numidians it could be Massinisa, of course (Tact|Cha).
There is a good LH for him: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190729
Much better.
But instead of the poppular Dandolo, you better add Domenico Selvo.
Not only known, but also known as a great leader, unlike Dandolo.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Not sure about your civ plans
I saw you were thinking about splitting the Turks into Ottomans/Seljuks and eastern Turkic people (which I also think is a good idea)
Maybe the Khazars would also fit in there as a separate civ? Unique, Jewish, NW Turkic people, with a significant empire on a significant timespan.
So the Khazars would represent all those NW Turkic people, including Pechenegs for example.
I would also love to see Armenia and the Mapuche/Tehuelche as new civs
IMO both are separate from any civ you already have, and both very deserving
I saw you were thinking about splitting the Turks into Ottomans/Seljuks and eastern Turkic people (which I also think is a good idea)
Maybe the Khazars would also fit in there as a separate civ? Unique, Jewish, NW Turkic people, with a significant empire on a significant timespan.
So the Khazars would represent all those NW Turkic people, including Pechenegs for example.
I would also love to see Armenia and the Mapuche/Tehuelche as new civs
IMO both are separate from any civ you already have, and both very deserving
ales_
Heir
Here is the list of potential new civs: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11302223&postcount=50.
Absolution
King
About that-
Bulgars: I don't think it would be hard finding an art - some eastern european/turkic arts can fit.
One leader of the first empire and one of the second can be good.
Benin: Agaja of Dahomey is the only one I can think of.
Bornu: many muslim african leaderheads can fit for Idris Alooma.
Armenia: It can be easy, because there are Armenian mods out there, surely with citylists and UU/UBs. Tigranes as leader, of course. Also leo I can be good if you wish for a latter one (an art of a generic European dark haired monarch can fit for him)
Burma: a long story... I think they deserve at least 3 leaders.
Khazar and Urartu/Armenia are both on the wishlist. I'm not very familiar with the Mapuche/Tehuelche, would need to learn more.
That list is a bit outdated now, I'll make a new one some time.
ales_
Heir
Yes, I know, but it's the only list we have.
AbsintheRed
Deity
The Mapuche resisted Spanish conquest and colonization for more than 300 years, with still almost 2 million Mapuche indians living today in Chile and Argentina.
IMO it would be great to have one more South American native civ, and they definitely deserve it.
One of the leader should be Lautaro, a young military commander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautaro
About your list:
I don't really like some of the option there. No offense to anyone, but some are just not important/recongnizable/unique enough.
I for one totally dislike the idea to have a separate Yemen from the main Arab civ.
Apart from the 4 already mentioned in my last post (Khazars, Armenia, Mapuche, splitting the Turks), I could only imagine the Bulgars, Burma/Pagan Kingdom, and maybe Zimbabwe and the Minoans.
Another distinct civs could be the Harappans and the Garamantes, but those are not that important either.
If I would choose, the next 6 would definitely be (in order):
Split Turks into Ottomans/Seljuks, Khazars/Pechenegs, and eastern Turks.
Armenia
Mapuche
Bulgars
Burma
ales_
Heir
Yemen is not likely to be a separated civ now.
An updated list of civilizations candidates:
I want to stress that most of these will probably never come about due to technical limits (MAFs), overrepresentation (Europe), or lack of material. Yemen can probably be covered by adding a leader to Arabia, and the Garamantes by adding a leader to the Berbers. At the time of writing the most likely to be implemented would be the Mississippians, the Khazar, Urartu/Armenia, and the Mon/Burmese.
Europe
• Finns
• Balts
• Bulgars
• Thrace
• Yugoslavia
Mediterranean
• Minoans
Africa
• Garamantes
• Edo/Benin
• Yoruba/Hausa/Nigerians
• Kanem/Bornu
• Zimbabwe
West Asia
• Urartu/Armenia
• Yemen
Central Asia
• Elam
• Khazar
• Uyghur/other eastern Turks
South Asia
• Sinhalese
• Mon/Burmese
East Asia
• Jurchen/Manchurians
Americas
• Mississippians (and descendants)
• Zapotec
• Moche/Chimu
• Finns
• Balts
• Bulgars
• Thrace
• Yugoslavia
Mediterranean
• Minoans
Africa
• Garamantes
• Edo/Benin
• Yoruba/Hausa/Nigerians
• Kanem/Bornu
• Zimbabwe
West Asia
• Urartu/Armenia
• Yemen
Central Asia
• Elam
• Khazar
• Uyghur/other eastern Turks
South Asia
• Sinhalese
• Mon/Burmese
East Asia
• Jurchen/Manchurians
Americas
• Mississippians (and descendants)
• Zapotec
• Moche/Chimu
I want to stress that most of these will probably never come about due to technical limits (MAFs), overrepresentation (Europe), or lack of material. Yemen can probably be covered by adding a leader to Arabia, and the Garamantes by adding a leader to the Berbers. At the time of writing the most likely to be implemented would be the Mississippians, the Khazar, Urartu/Armenia, and the Mon/Burmese.
ales_
Heir
My thoughts:
Europe. Finns: they are an interesting people but they became independent only in 1917! Balts: What do you want to represent? Lithuania? Then I agree. Bulgars: maybe they'll be better as a part of Yugoslavia? Thrace: it's a too crowded region, although I don't know much about them. Yugoslavia: at first, I didn't like the name, but then I thought that it's a wonderful name under which you can represent all the Southern Slavs. So, we'll have Russia to represent East Slavs, Poland - West, Yugoslavia - South.
Mediterranean. Minoans: an interesting civ and an interesting starting location on the earth map!
Africa. Garamantes: maybe a leader will be enough. Everything else: if there's enough art, these will be great additions. They all have long historical continuity.
West Asia. Urartu: a great idea. Yemen: maybe a leader will be enough.
Central Asia. Elam: it's a part of Persia, but Persia has enough leader slots... Khasars, Uyghur: now that turks are redesigned, they are possible candidats.
East Asia. Don't know much about them.
America. If there's enough art, yes.
Europe. Finns: they are an interesting people but they became independent only in 1917! Balts: What do you want to represent? Lithuania? Then I agree. Bulgars: maybe they'll be better as a part of Yugoslavia? Thrace: it's a too crowded region, although I don't know much about them. Yugoslavia: at first, I didn't like the name, but then I thought that it's a wonderful name under which you can represent all the Southern Slavs. So, we'll have Russia to represent East Slavs, Poland - West, Yugoslavia - South.
Mediterranean. Minoans: an interesting civ and an interesting starting location on the earth map!
Africa. Garamantes: maybe a leader will be enough. Everything else: if there's enough art, these will be great additions. They all have long historical continuity.
West Asia. Urartu: a great idea. Yemen: maybe a leader will be enough.
Central Asia. Elam: it's a part of Persia, but Persia has enough leader slots... Khasars, Uyghur: now that turks are redesigned, they are possible candidats.
East Asia. Don't know much about them.
America. If there's enough art, yes.
Absolution
King
What are you going to do with them? Jin and Qing, that's all?
I think it is better to represent them with Kangxi as a Chinese leader.
I don't like the name, mainly because at the first it sounds like a geographcial term
I would prefer a Serbian civilization, but a Croatian leader will probably be added, so it is quite problematic.
Anyway, for a Yugoslavic civilization I would suggest:
One medieval Serbian monarch (there are many possibilities).
Of Bosnia -Tvrtko I, of Croatia - Peter Kresimir IV, and Tito for modern Yugoslavia.
I highly support adding Elam, the strongest underrepresented anciet power, but it will be hard to find art and cities (there are very few known Elamite cities), and would be even harder to decide what language the units will speak.
Probably any Indian art can fit for them, and a leaderhead of an ancient Indian leader can be good for Parakramabahu I.
Both listed as they're cultures that aren't currently represented, no real plans for either. Lithuania we could represent partially by adding Vytautas to Poland.
They were a Turkic or possibly Sarmatian people, not Slavic.
The region is covered by Byzantium (which I consider to include Romania). Not sure Thrace is really needed as well, no.
It's just a name I use to note that the southern slavs are not currently represented in HR, but could be. At this point I have no idea what to call such a civ, whether such a civ makes sense, or even if I want to include such a civ. I just realized there was an omission and thought I'd better note it.
Not the most practical of civilizations to add but I am very interested in them, so I may give it a try at some point.
A leader is probably enough, they were Berbers.
The civ would probably be Armenia, with an Urartan leader, Tigranes the Great, and perhaps a later Armenian or Cicilian leader. HR covers the Near East pretty extensively, so, like Europe, we risk over-representation adding more civs here. Armenia would be a relatively easy civ to put together though, so it's probably worth doing anyway.
They weren't Persian, but an unrelated people that are now extinct. The Medes and Persians inherited their territory after their downfall.
Yeah, they would be very difficult to put together. Not just the citylist, but 2 UUs, UB, UW, 2 leaders... Unfortunately I suspect they'll end up in the 'too vague, too hard' bucket, like the Olmec and the Harrapans.
I'd try to focus at least partially on their history before they became part of China, but ultimately they're on the list as a vague possibility. Haven't given it much thought and odds are they'll never eventuate.
I think Burma is the more important South Asian civ to add, but if there is sufficient material and space remaining it would good to see Sinhala in HR.
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