Llywelyn of Wales would be a good addition. The only problem I see is that 4 of 5 leaders would represent Insular Celts. I'm not sure if this is good.
I'll do some reading on the continental Celts before I make a decision.
England
With Alfred of Wessex added, all the main periods of English history would be represented.
Not really.
Anglo-Saxon England had a wider history to be covered.
What about something like Ethelbert of Kent? Redwald of East Anglia?
But that would cause a sixth leader so it's not really possible.
Will read up on the period when I have time.
Netherlands
Do the Netherlands represent the whole Benelux? If yes, Leopold II of Belgium can be added.
I honestly don't know if that could work or not. Not familiar enough with the history.
France
Well, I've found more arguments for replacing Richelieu with Karolus:
1) There is a big gap between Clovis and Richelieu, and a too small between Richelieu and Louis (they were even alive at the same time!). There are better gaps between Clovis and Karolus, Karolus and Richelieu.
I don't want to remove Richelieu. Figures like him make for great AI opponents, and sometimes that's more important than having perfect representation. If I was going to drop a French leader, I'd prefer to drop Clovis or De Gaulle.
2) IMO, every culture/state should be represented with one civ. For example, even though the Celts are the ancestors of the English and the French, they are represented only by Celts. The Franks should be represented only by one civ and I think it should be France.
I'll have a proper think about it after 1.22 is done. Too busy with everything else at the moment.
Germany
If you remove Karolus, both Barbarossa and Hitler can be added. Then Germany would be represented by Barbarossa, Maximilian, Frederick, Bismarck, Hitler. Sounds good enough for me.
If I did move Karolus to France I'd want to add an early German leader to replace him. And the early German leaders are Franks...
You should not only think about how known those leaders were.
Germany had much greater leaders to represent those too eras:
Otto I instead of Frederick I (Barbarossa)
Konard Adenauer instead of Hitler...
I agree about Otto, but there is no good art for him and there is stunning art available for Barbarossa. Not particularly keen on either Adenauer or Hitler at this time.
Scandinavia
I don't know. This civ represents several states with a rather long history. Maybe a 4th leader can be added.
Poland
I think 4 leaders can be afforded. Casimir, Vytautas, Sobieski, Pilsudski sounds good for me.
Portugal
Maria would be a great 4th leader.
Phoenicia
The only other possible leader I can see is a Phoenician leader representing another city-state (not Sur).
I don't have any further thoughts on these since the last time they were discussed. There are higher priorities for the moment.
Russia
An ideal combination would be Yaroslav, representing Kiev, Alexander, representing Novgorod, Ivan, representing the Duchy and Tsardom, Peter, representing the Empire (Yekaterina would fill the gap better but Peter is far more important), Stalin, representing the USSR. I'd really love to see the Principality of Polotsk represented (by Vseslav) but I'm probably biased.
I like this arrangement, but I'm always reluctant to remove female leaders. Even though Peter was more important, Yekaterina was one of history's most notable female monarchs. One of the Ivans for sure though.
Greece
A 5th leader from the Hellinistic period would be good.
Given the Greeks also have Byzantium representing them, I'm not in a hurry to add a 5th leader.
Rome
Are Romans and Italians the same people? If yes, I'm happy for them to stay as one civ. About leaders, 3 leaders should be Roman and 2 Italian. I'm happy with the Italian ones but it may be more beautiful for the 3 Roman leaders to represent the Kingdom, the Republic and the Empire, although adding a Kingdom leader just for the sake of it doesn't seem right. Having both Julius and Augustus also bothers me but they're representing different states, so that's OK for me.
In order to have better chronological spacing, I proposed dropping Augustus instead of Marcus Aurelias. People weren't very happy with that idea though.
Depends on what you mean when you use the term "Italians".
- The Italic peoples? those are the Indo-European peoples of the peninsula, with Latins included of course.
- The Italian culture? the new social and political form of the peninsula after the fall of the Goths and the Lombards, which has developed continuously into what we know today.
My opinion is that it can be considered as two different civilization, but according to HR's philosophy it's hardly is - Those two completely share their ethnicity and their location.
Absolutely the same civilization: same ethnicity, same location, much inherited culture, periods of interruption and disunity but continuity preserved, culturally if not politically. nly tricky bit is the name. I stuck with the Romans, since 'the Italians' or the 'the Latins' aren't accurate, and 'the Italics' sounds positively ridiculous.
Spain
You've said (written) that colonial countries are covered by their "parent" civilization but it was never represented with leaders. Spain is a perfect example to show it because there are plenty of worthy Latin American leaders. Just pick one of them.
If we do this for Spain, why not for England, France, etc? It's a floodgate I really don't wish to open. Excluding colonial countries (and leaders) was a deliberate design decision right back when I first started HR. Avoids both Eurocentrism and determinism.
Or two.
It is much more important than the periods of Argentonio.
I wouldn't have considered him a "Spaniard" at all, but never mind.
And I think that there must be at least one leader of a pre-Castilian northern Iberian state (Alfonso III of Asturias, Sancho III of Navarre, James I / Peter II of Aragon...)
Spain probably deserves a 5th leader but I need to do more research before commenting on who. Keeping Argantonio though.
Nubia
Three leaders (with Merkurios) would be OK.
All depends if the art being made for him ever gets finished and released. Not heard from the author in a long time.
Berbers
I think they deserve more leaders. You can add a leader of Numidia or Garamantes, maybe both.
I think it is by far less needed than many other leaders.
A Berber leader (maybe even 2) is a priority. This civ represents a broad region and time period. Current 2 leaders aren't enough. Need to review art available.
Swahili
What does this civ represent? Only the city-states or something else?
The city-states and a several other communities along/near the coast that they were associated with or related to.
Zulu
What does this cov represent? A period of 81 years during 10 of which it wasn't even independent?
Currently, yes. I'd like to broaden the scope (e.g. the Nguni or even the Bantu) but I'm not sure it works that well. Not looked into it for ages though.
It can be a broader civilization of the South African natives which are hard to bring together.
If you want a Zulu leader from a different era.... I'll just mention that Nelson Mandela was a Zulu
Mandela was Xhosa.
Israel
I'm really not sure. Maybe a modern leader is needed, maybe not.
I prefer not. I've given a nod to Modern Israel with the Merkava UU, but I'm happy with the 3 leaders we have.
Persia
I'm absolutely sure that unfortunately both Achaemenid leaders can't stay. A Median leader (Cyaxares, for example) can be added. What concerns the 5th leader, either a Parthian or a more modern one.
Medians are not Persians.
Both spoke Western Iranian languages, but did not share the same culture.
Medians also don't solve the problem - they have been contemporaries of the Achaemenids.
Mithridates I of Persia can be a nice addition,
And if we drop one Achaemenid, we gain room for an essential pre-Mongol Islamic leader: Mahmud of Ghazni, Muhammad Ghori....
I don't feel any great need to represent the Medes; their empire, while significant, was short-lived and contemporary with Cyrus. Persia deserves a 5th leader though, and there's a big gap between the Sassanids and the Safavids that needs filling. Mahmud of Ghazni would be perfect, just gotta find art.
Kushan
Covering only one empire isn't very good. Does it have continuity with some other states?
The problem is too much continuity! It's seriously the most difficult region in the world to condense or divide into distinct civilizations. I could make a dozen civs for it and still not encompass it all. In the end I went for the Kushan because they covered many of the key peoples that couldn't be connected to the Persians, Turks, Mongols, Indians, or Greeks. Plus, they're a largely forgotten empire that deserves better recognition.
Turks
I'm really confused now what they represent.
My current thinking is it represents the Oghuz Turks. Both the Seljuks and Ottomans were Oghuz dynasties. Just needs a leader from their Caspian/Transoxiana/Turkmenistan homeland. Appropriate to keep them as the 'Turks' and 'Turkish' but they'll need a new flag.
I agree, this civilization must be split.
All the more easterly (and northerly) Turkic peoples are basically unrepresented now, so there is scope for new civ(s) here, perhaps.
Mongolia
What is Mongolia representing?
The Mongol Empire, it's successor factions, its remnants, and its resurgences (e.g. the Timurids). Their city list needs reviewing, so this definition will likely be refined as part of that, whenever I get around to it.
India
India absolutely needs a 5th leader, either a Pala emperor or Shivaji Bhosle.
Yep.
I have already expressed my thoughts of the term "India"...
I think it can only stand for the later, Islamic/British/Modern idea of an Indian political entity.
The rest are completely different civilizations.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Tamil
A third, Vijayanagara leader would be a good addition.
They are not Tamils, but Kannadigas.
Anyway, Xyth has changed it to a Dravidian civilization, which can include Vijayanagra, and Must(!) include Krishna Deva Raya.
Krishnadevaraya is definitely the leading contender. I just need to find suitable art.
Siam
After the addition of Naresuan, the three main kingdoms of Siam would be represented.
Yep. Art is the hold up, once again. Especially since I need to have art for at least 2 other SE Asian leaders if Burma is ever to be added.
Angkor
Currently, both leaders represent the Khmer Empire. What else does this civ represent?
Primarily the Khmer Empire and it's descendants. Could potentially include Funan and/or Chenla. Like the Mongols, citylist needs a serious review which will guide the definition.
Indonesia
The Muslim states and the Malay still aren't represented. I'm not sure whether a 4th leader is needed.
Srivijaya was Malay, with many cities on the Malay peninsula, so they're represented in that period at least.
China
China deserves a 5th leader. Probably the best choice is a Han.
A Han leader would be ideal. Finding quality art is the challenge.
Has the advantage of allowing more freedom with art choice, but I'd still prefer a Han leader. Such an important period in Chinese history.
Japan
I'd like to see a Kamakura leader.
That or Heian I reckon. Will be decided by whoever the art most resembles, should I find some.
Polynesia
As the only civ in its region, representing a lot of different islands, I think a 4th leader, representing Tahiti or Rapanui, can be added.
If a 4th is to be added, should definitely be from Tahiti or Rapanui. Not a high priority though.
Anasazi
Where have you found information about Kochininako?
She's a figure from Pueblo mythology but also appears, or has parallels, in the legends of other Anasazi descendants like the Hopi and the Zuni. Not much else to go on for this civ.
Aztec
I'm OK with two leaders but Montezuma should be replaced with the most important tlatoani, but I'm really not a specialist.
I've been meaning to change him to the much more important Montezuma I.
Inca
I'm not sure if they have enough connection with the Wari.
I'm not sure either. I need to do more research on Andean cultures.
Brazil
I'm not sure that a third leader is needed.
Zumbi would be perfect to complete the three ethnicities of Brazil. Probably any art of a young African ruler that isn't too magnificently dressed can fit for him.
A little unorthodox, but works neatly with HR's depiction of Brazil. Will keep an eye out for suitable art, but there are higher priorities.
