Feedback: Improvements

[Howard Mahler]

I hate the idea of resource depletion.

I remember a game many years ago, where I fought very, very hard for an Iron located between me and a rival, actually closer to him. Without it I stood no chance in the war.
(My rival had all the early strategic resources and I had none without this Iron.)
After hooking up the Iron, I got a turn or two out of it before it depleted.
While realistic, it does not tend to make for a fun game, at least for me.

In a different game, I remember taking over a rival's uranium before he could make use of it, only to have in a few turns a new uranium spawn deep inside his territory. While this was annoying, it somehow does not spoil the fun as much as the first situation, at least for me.

I assume the current discovery rate for mines is less frequent than Farms. If so OK.
The discovery rate for Farms should be somewhat less than currently.

I've decided to leave resource depletion out of 1.18 and set resource discovery to 7500, halfway between the current rate for Mines (10000) and Farms (5000). I think that's a safe value to start with and we can make adjustments for 1.19 once we have more experience on how the system plays.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Orchards should spread irrigation along with farms with crop rotation. There's really no reason for them not to. They both require lots of water in real life and have to spread it via irrigation or other, more modern, methods.
Oh, and why can't you build cottages without fresh water now?

 

[Xyth]

Orchards should spread irrigation along with farms with crop rotation. There's really no reason for them not to. They both require lots of water in real life and have to spread it via irrigation or other, more modern, methods.

The reason they're not to set to spread irrigation is that Forests and Jungles have higher natural yields than non-wooded tiles. Allowing Orchards to be built on any Forest or Jungle tile recreates the pre 1.18 problem with Camps - every wooded tile being self supporting AND granting production or commerce.

Oh, and why can't you build cottages without fresh water now?

That's a bug. Will fix.

 

[Eucalyptus]

HR1.18: Do I have this correct? Prime Timber is _only_ intended to be unlocked via Lumbermills, and not just by connection via roads/rivers? But it is unlocked when under city sites. Holy King Solomon's Lumbermills, Batman!

This situation isn't fun and it isn't logical! Is it intended?

Why not allow Prime Timber to be accessible via either a Camp or a Lumbermill, the latter with a greater production bonus?

 

[Xyth]

HR1.18: Do I have this correct? Prime Timber is _only_ intended to be unlocked via Lumbermills, and not just by connection via roads/rivers? But it is unlocked when under city sites. Holy King Solomon's Lumbermills, Batman!

This situation isn't fun and it isn't logical! Is it intended?

Why not allow Prime Timber to be accessible via either a Camp or a Lumbermill, the latter with a greater production bonus?

My thoughts here were that I don't want the benefits of Prime Timber available right from the Ancient Era but it can at least provide some additional tile yield until then, rather than being revealed in the appropriate era. You get bonus production for chopping one too.

Having it unlockable by cities is unintended, I'll fix that. In fact, I'm tempted to make any resource be destroyed by having a city built atop it. At least in the later eras it feels silly to be producing exportable grain, livestock, ore, etc in or around a bustling city. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Azoth]

Having it unlockable by cities is unintended, I'll fix that. In fact, I'm tempted to make any resource be destroyed by having a city built atop it. At least in the later eras it feels silly to be producing exportable grain, livestock, ore, etc in or around a bustling city. Any thoughts on this?

It does feel silly to be exporting Pigs or Copper from a bustling city but I'm not sure that I'd prefer the resources be destroyed. It might cause problems with the late game strategic resources if players lose their only copy of Coal or Aluminum because they unknowingly founded a city atop the ores in the Ancient Era. More generally, sometimes local geography dictates that a city must be founded on a resource to preserve access other resources, seafood in particular. In that case, players already lose the enhanced resource tile yield; it seems unfair to deprive them of the resource as well.

 

[Foennix]

Is it intended that once cottages on flood plains get big enough to produce pollution the flood plain is _replaced_ by pollution? It was quite a shock for me when my biggest commerce city completely collapsed when the hamlets where replaced by villages and each field lost the 3 food it previously provided.

Great mod by the way!

 

[Boggy]

It might cause problems with the late game strategic resources if players lose their only copy of Coal or Aluminum because they unknowingly founded a city atop the ores in the Ancient Era. More generally, sometimes local geography dictates that a city must be founded on a resource to preserve access other resources, seafood in particular. In that case, players already lose the enhanced resource tile yield; it seems unfair to deprive them of the resource as well.

That's true. In addition, founding a city on a strategic ressource is sometimes even necessary - neither spies nor troops can destroy it (ok, they can burn down the city, but that's much more difficult than just pillaging). And if you have to fight a nuclear war, you'll need to found a city on at least one uranium ressource, or your opponent will just throw one ore more ICBMs on it (ok, the AI maybe not). Without Bionics, you will never see your Uranium again. The first one who can throw nukes would have an even bigger advantage than now.
Well, I think this would happen. In fact, I've never had a nuclear war in Civ4

But you could make every non-strategic ressource disappear by building a city on it. That would be logical but wouldn't affect the game too much.

 

[Boggy]

Is it intended that once cottages on flood plains get big enough to produce pollution the flood plain is _replaced_ by pollution? It was quite a shock for me when my biggest commerce city completely collapsed when the hamlets where replaced by villages and each field lost the 3 food it previously provided.

Great mod by the way!

Ah, that's why there are so many desert tiles along a river without flood plains in my opponent's land I assume it's not intended, but it works equally with workshops.

 

[Xyth]

It does feel silly to be exporting Pigs or Copper from a bustling city but I'm not sure that I'd prefer the resources be destroyed. It might cause problems with the late game strategic resources if players lose their only copy of Coal or Aluminum because they unknowingly founded a city atop the ores in the Ancient Era. More generally, sometimes local geography dictates that a city must be founded on a resource to preserve access other resources, seafood in particular. In that case, players already lose the enhanced resource tile yield; it seems unfair to deprive them of the resource as well.

That's true. In addition, founding a city on a strategic ressource is sometimes even necessary - neither spies nor troops can destroy it (ok, they can burn down the city, but that's much more difficult than just pillaging). And if you have to fight a nuclear war, you'll need to found a city on at least one uranium ressource, or your opponent will just throw one ore more ICBMs on it (ok, the AI maybe not). Without Bionics, you will never see your Uranium again. The first one who can throw nukes would have an even bigger advantage than now.
Well, I think this would happen. In fact, I've never had a nuclear war in Civ4

But you could make every non-strategic ressource disappear by building a city on it. That would be logical but wouldn't affect the game too much.

Good points.

Is it intended that once cottages on flood plains get big enough to produce pollution the flood plain is _replaced_ by pollution? It was quite a shock for me when my biggest commerce city completely collapsed when the hamlets where replaced by villages and each field lost the 3 food it previously provided.

Great mod by the way!

Ah, that's why there are so many desert tiles along a river without flood plains in my opponent's land I assume it's not intended, but it works equally with workshops.

Ah I didn't consider that situation! Not intended, no. I'll have to think about how best to solve this.

 

[Eucalyptus]

My thoughts here were that I don't want the benefits of Prime Timber available right from the Ancient Era but it can at least provide some additional tile yield until then, rather than being revealed in the appropriate era. You get bonus production for chopping one too.

Having it unlockable by cities is unintended, I'll fix that. In fact, I'm tempted to make any resource be destroyed by having a city built atop it. At least in the later eras it feels silly to be producing exportable grain, livestock, ore, etc in or around a bustling city. Any thoughts on this?

I have no problem with city placement creating access to resources. The tile is, after all, much larger than the city itself. Solomon's Quarries (Zedekiah's Cave) is a notable exception --- for those that don't know, it's a quarry _under_ Jerusalem!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zedekiah's_Cave

It's frustrating to have Prime Timber visible but not accessible in the early game. Many of my games complete more of their turns before than after Machinery. I'd vote for making Prime Timber accessible via both Camps or Lumbermills.

 

[Xyth]

It's frustrating to have Prime Timber visible but not accessible in the early game. Many of my games complete more of their turns before than after Machinery. I'd vote for making Prime Timber accessible via both Camps or Lumbermills.

If I made it available via Camps I'd need to rebalance the cost of all wooden ships and siege units, and it's a general production boost that the ancient era doesn't need. I'd like to hear more opinions on this please.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I agree that Prime Timber should be available somewhat earlier than currently,
perhaps two tech columns earlier.

A possible fix would be to move lumbermills earlier, for example to Milling rather than Machinery; this is only one column earlier but a step in the right direction.

 

[Eucalyptus]

I agree that Prime Timber should be available somewhat earlier than currently,
perhaps two tech columns earlier.

A possible fix would be to move lumbermills earlier, for example to Milling rather than Machinery; this is only one column earlier but a step in the right direction.

Well, HR1.18 has reduced early production to very low levels and I'd personally like to get some back. I don't think that a 25% bonus in production of Ships and Siege equipment is a balance problem. If it is, then I have no problem with a 20% cost increase in these units.

Does the following alternative address both the low hammer production and the access to Prime Timber?

Split the current overloaded Camp into its two distinct components --- forestry and hunting. Allow a new improvement: Logging Camp, that becomes available at Iron Working. It can only be established in Forests and Jungles, and accesses Prime Timber, if present. It grants +1 and produces no pollution. Keep the current Lumbermill as it is, available with Machinery. The civilization must upgrade the improvement from Logging Camp to Lumbermill to get the benefits. If the Forest or Jungle is destroyed (fire, chopping), the improvement is also lost, and any Prime Timber is lost. Allow discovery of Prime Timber (via Logging Camp and Lumbermill) to compensate for this.

Keep the current Camp as a land-mammal hunting camp, but rename it: "Fur and Hide Camp", "Safari Camp", "Hunting Lodge" --- there must be a good name for this! Also allow it in Forests and Jungles.

 

[Nightstar]

Playing the latest release of 1.18, two issues:

I decided to replace a plantation on a Grasslands Jungle Hill with a mine. Upon completion, the Jungle was removed without giving me any 'chop' hammers.

Reloaded from an autosave and chopped the Jungle before building the mine. The plantation was *not* destroyed when the Jungle was removed.

 

[Nightstar]

A number of improvements have been renamed from BTS, but the hotkeys for them don't seem to have been updated. Having the hotkey for the Orchard improvement be SHIFT-W is rather counter-intuitive, for example.

Also, even some of the ones that haven't been renamed probably need new hotkeys. Pastures and Plantations come to mind, as both can now be built on savannah and use SHIFT-P.

 

[kiwitt]

Would you consider the following;

Farm: 5 Food, 1 Gold, 0 Production, (+ bonuses)
Cottage: 4 Food, 1 Gold, 1 Production (Reflecting cottage industry)
Hamlet: 3 Food, 1 Gold, 2 Production
Village: 2 Food, 2 Gold, 2 Production
Town: 1 Food, 3 Gold, 3 Production - Can act as a city
Mine: 0 Food, 1 Gold, 4 Production (+ bonuses)

In designing the WWII Map, I would like to try to place all major cities with 200,000+ on the map, Towns would be used to mark 100,000-199,999, Villages 50,000-99,999, Hamlets 20,000-49,999 and cottages 10,000-19,999.

The reason why I think we should have scaled food production is to reflect increasing urbanisation. The scaled Gold reflects increasing taxation being generated. And of course with increased urbanisation you get increased production.

 

[Xyth]

I agree that Prime Timber should be available somewhat earlier than currently,
perhaps two tech columns earlier.

A possible fix would be to move lumbermills earlier, for example to Milling rather than Machinery; this is only one column earlier but a step in the right direction.

Well, HR1.18 has reduced early production to very low levels and I'd personally like to get some back. I don't think that a 25% bonus in production of Ships and Siege equipment is a balance problem. If it is, then I have no problem with a 20% cost increase in these units.

I haven't revisited the Prime Timber issue yet, but I will do.

Playing the latest release of 1.18, two issues:

I decided to replace a plantation on a Grasslands Jungle Hill with a mine. Upon completion, the Jungle was removed without giving me any 'chop' hammers.

Reloaded from an autosave and chopped the Jungle before building the mine. The plantation was *not* destroyed when the Jungle was removed.

Investigating.

A number of improvements have been renamed from BTS, but the hotkeys for them don't seem to have been updated. Having the hotkey for the Orchard improvement be SHIFT-W is rather counter-intuitive, for example.

Also, even some of the ones that haven't been renamed probably need new hotkeys. Pastures and Plantations come to mind, as both can now be built on savannah and use SHIFT-P.

Good call, I'll reassign hotkeys for 1.19.

Would you consider the following;

Farm: 5 Food, 1 Gold, 0 Production, (+ bonuses)
Cottage: 4 Food, 1 Gold, 1 Production (Reflecting cottage industry)
Hamlet: 3 Food, 1 Gold, 2 Production
Village: 2 Food, 2 Gold, 2 Production
Town: 1 Food, 3 Gold, 3 Production - Can act as a city
Mine: 0 Food, 1 Gold, 4 Production (+ bonuses)

In designing the WWII Map, I would like to try to place all major cities with 200,000+ on the map, Towns would be used to mark 100,000-199,999, Villages 50,000-99,999, Hamlets 20,000-49,999 and cottages 10,000-19,999.

The reason why I think we should have scaled food production is to reflect increasing urbanisation. The scaled Gold reflects increasing taxation being generated. And of course with increased urbanisation you get increased production.

That's a pretty major change and would require an awful lot of redesign and rebalancing. Not something I'm willing to consider at this time sorry.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Would you consider the following;

Farm: 5 Food, 1 Gold, 0 Production, (+ bonuses)
Cottage: 4 Food, 1 Gold, 1 Production (Reflecting cottage industry)
Hamlet: 3 Food, 1 Gold, 2 Production
Village: 2 Food, 2 Gold, 2 Production
Town: 1 Food, 3 Gold, 3 Production - Can act as a city
Mine: 0 Food, 1 Gold, 4 Production (+ bonuses)

In designing the WWII Map, I would like to try to place all major cities with 200,000+ on the map, Towns would be used to mark 100,000-199,999, Villages 50,000-99,999, Hamlets 20,000-49,999 and cottages 10,000-19,999.

The reason why I think we should have scaled food production is to reflect increasing urbanisation. The scaled Gold reflects increasing taxation being generated. And of course with increased urbanisation you get increased production.

Er, wait.

You mean as something specific to your WWII mod plan? Sounds fun. And when you say "can act as a city," I take it you mean "can garrison troops and so on," like a fortress tile?

Because it makes plenty of sense for such a map, where you're deliberately increasing productivity of tiles and so on so that you can have dense-packed populations and rapid production of units to reflect the historic rates of World War Two.

That doesn't mean it'd make sense for the main game. So I assume you only want it for your submod...

 

[kiwitt]

^ I'll likely do it in a mod-mod.

In the meantime I am making sure my 1940 scenario is compatible with this. This mod is still in an intensive development phase, so I do not want to upset the development too much.