Feedback: Religions

[platyping]

Just add it as a "activatable button" like what I did with my Enhanced GP mod?
Then you can even shift the Prophet to the city you like before founding the religion.

 

[Azoth]

The shrines of Druidism, Shamanism, and Vodun have generic names and do not appear to refer to any particular structure or holy site. It's a small thing, but it's been bugging me for a while. I suggest the following name changes:

Druidism: Pool of Balance -> Glastonbury Tor
Shamanism: Stone of Visions -> Mathó Thípila (Devil's Tower)
Vodun: Tomb of the Ansyen Bon -> Ilé-Ifè

 

[Xyth]

I'm fine with renaming those. I don't think Glastonbury Tor is the right choice for Druidism though; while it probably was a druidic site, its relevance was drastically embellished in medieval times by its dubious identification as the mythical Avalon of Celtic and Arthurian legend. Ynys Môn (Anglesey) (or a site on it if we can find a significant one) is probably the best choice. Most accounts identify the island as where the druid hierarchy was based and new druids were trained.

 

[Azoth]

I'm fine with renaming those. I don't think Glastonbury Tor is the right choice for Druidism though; while it probably was a druidic site, its relevance was drastically embellished in medieval times by its dubious identification as the mythical Avalon of Celtic and Arthurian legend. Ynys Môn (Anglesey) (or a site on it if we can find a significant one) is probably the best choice. Most accounts identify the island as where the druid hierarchy was based and new druids were trained.

Yep. Good call on Ynys Môn.

 

[Xyth]

Quick question while I'm working on buildings: do shrines need improving?

 

[Azoth]

Quick question while I'm working on buildings: do shrines need improving?

Some small added bonuses wouldn't hurt, especially now that there are five new Great buildings clamouring for attention. I suggest +4 espionage and +2 happiness with state religion.

On a related note, will Great Prophets still found religions automatically upon birth, or will it take an action that consumes them? I'd prefer the latter, though I understand that it might be difficult to teach the AI to use such an ability. If we stick to the former, then we might want to raise the requirements for a Shrine, to bring them closer in line with the other Great buildings. We could add a tech requirement or swap "requires Temples" with "requires Great Temple in target city." Again, I don't know how the AI would deal with such a change, or the other Great buildings in general.

 

[Nightstar]

I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

 

[Skidizzle]

I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

 

[Azoth]

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

This. I mean, you could do it, especially if you limited the bonuses to the Great Temples, or built the bonus in stages: +5% GPP for the Temple, +5% for the the Monastery, +15% GPP for the Great Temple. But even then, coming up with 18 unique, accurate, and balanced bonuses would be hard.

One thing we should do is renamed the Asatru Great Temple. The "Hall of Fame" has a completely different meaning in modern times. And there's a much better Norse term: Hof.

Also, are there any plans to add more religions to HR? Tengriism, an Andean religion (possible name: Viracochan?), and Sikhism would be good choices.

 

[ales_]

Sikhism won't, because there are no leaders who prefer it.

 

[Azoth]

Sikhism won't, because there are no leaders who prefer it.

Well, that might change depending on which new leader we add to India. Even then, there's something to be said for numbers. Sikhism is the fifth largest organized religion, with twice as many followers as Judaism. There's a reason it's included in Civ5, even though it's not the favourite religion of any leader.

 

[Xyth]

Some small added bonuses wouldn't hurt, especially now that there are five new Great buildings clamouring for attention. I suggest +4 espionage and +2 happiness with state religion.

What about the wealth per city mechanic? Does that need to be stronger or expanded to another commerce perhaps?

On a related note, will Great Prophets still found religions automatically upon birth, or will it take an action that consumes them? I'd prefer the latter, though I understand that it might be difficult to teach the AI to use such an ability.

I don't know yet. The latter is possible I'm just not sure I want to tackle it for 1.21 or not. Depends how smoothly everything else goes.

I'd really like to see each religion have unique additional effects for their temples/monasteries/shrines, especially if they could could be restricted to the current state religion.

If each separate state religion did have it's own "unique ability/flavor bonus" would the AI be able to handle it?

Then you get into whether or not you choose the state religion bonuses a la Civ V or you have them tied to the religion, which could be sticky.

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to give them all unique and accurate bonuses.

This. I mean, you could do it, especially if you limited the bonuses to the Great Temples, or built the bonus in stages: +5% GPP for the Temple, +5% for the the Monastery, +15% GPP for the Great Temple. But even then, coming up with 18 unique, accurate, and balanced bonuses would be hard.

It's on the wishlist but it's not something I want to attempt for 1.21.

One thing we should do is renamed the Asatru Great Temple. The "Hall of Fame" has a completely different meaning in modern times. And there's a much better Norse term: Hof.

Perfect, done.

Also, are there any plans to add more religions to HR? Tengriism, an Andean religion (possible name: Viracochan?), and Sikhism would be good choices.

Not currently. There's a 'soft cap' of 18, when it comes to religions - beyond that point, adding new ones is possible but much more troublesome. Religions also require a fair bit of art (4 buildings, a unit, and a movie), and I've not seen much that I could assemble that I haven't already used elsewhere. Maybe some day though. All three of those suggestions have merit.

 

[Azoth]

What about the wealth per city mechanic? Does that need to be stronger or expanded to another commerce perhaps?

Well, I've suggested +1 science per city as a bonus for a new National Wonder in the Buildings thread. Espionage or culture per city would be too unbalancing. I don't think the value needs to be higher, either: shrines compare very favourably to a settled Great Prophet.

If anything, we need to revisit the commerce per city mechanic for corporate headquarters, specifically the culture corporations. It leads to absurdities like a jewelry company producing more raw culture in its home city than all the palaces, temples, towers, and theatres built over the ages. But we can save that for 1.22.

 

[The_Athenian]

Hi Xyth,
I know I am coming a little late to this party. I hope that after 1.21 you tackle the religious buildings.

Selecting a religion should be more than just an aesthetic/Role playing choice.



I have read many debates between windows modders, about whether it was worth it to adjust the effects of religious buildings to suit the religions better. The overall feeling was that any major affects would alter the balance of the game, because the AI would have issues.

So maybe just a small step would be cool. Where the unique religious wonders for each religion had a slightly different benefit. But keep the other religious buildings as is. The benefits would not need to be so significant that they shift the balance of power in the game, but just small enough so that there is some reason to select one religion over the other.

As far as AI concerns, I've noticed the AI tends to pick religions associated with that particular civ. So the AI would pick as is it does now, and build religious buildings as it does now.




Unique Wonders. (Most benefits should be added to the current standard benefits of building wonder)

for the Druids: They could function similar to the old national park, except instead of commerce they receive +1 health/or +1 culture for every forrest in the city where it is built.

Christianity: Probably something war like, so that when it is founded, all others will fear the dreaded crusaders. You know -15% war weariness. A reflection on Christianity being used to justify wars throughout history.

Islam: Islam was a religion of peace and science for most of it's history. +1 science from monuments. (effect expires when monuments go obsolete) So that by the modern age this scientific advantage has disappeared.

Taoism: +1 experience to Melee units & +1 health per rice, fish.
A religion very connected to nature, but some of the greatest warriors were taoists, many of Sun Tzu's writings reflect taoist thought, and taoism combined with Buddhism led to some of the most badass shaolin warrior monks.

Buddhism: Peaceful, and vegetarian, so +1 happiness in all cities, +2 health per rice, fruit in city where it's built. However, +10% war weariness.

Judaism: +2 culture per bank & university. +1 experience for fighter jet. (duh, Jewish stereotype + 1967)

Hinduism: Hinduism was much stricter than Buddhism, but had some of the benefits of vegetarianism, though many of these societies today face serious health & overcrowding issues.

+1 health per monument/temple, expires when building becomes obsolete. And +50% birthrate in city where it is built.
This will mean that early in history the holy city will grow and be healthy, but by the modern age it may face issues with overcrowding.

Shinto: +1 experience points all units built in this city.
Throughout it's history whether it was swordsmen, archers, horsemen, or kamikaze pilots there has always been a strong warrior tradition.

ok my intern just walked in and looks like she looks lost, gotta run... but tell me what you think.

 

[The_Athenian]

On further thought,

I realize the issue with providing a bonus through the Unique Religious Wonder system, is that one or two civs could end up with multiple religious wonders, and thus have numerous bonuses.

Perhaps those bonuses could be applied simply based on which religion is your state religion.

Though I still think the unique wonders should work just like any other wonder, with their own unique effects, but perhaps not as generous as the ones I initially suggested.

 

[Xyth]

I think adding flavoured bonuses to each religion's shrine has potential. Adds incentive to found more than one religion. Will certainly consider it for 1.22.

 

[The_Athenian]

Hi Xyth,

Thanks for being so receptive to my idea!

I was thinking about it, and Temples don't expire, but Monasteries expire with electricity. What about attaching unique bonuses to the Monasteries, that will expire in the modern age?

Because religions evolve over time. So certain traits could be more prominent in the Middle ages.

Middle Ages

For example: Islam Could have a +2 science from Monasteries.

Civs with this Islamic building would have an edge in the Middle Ages, but this scientific advantage would disappear as the world moves forward.

Christianity: Monasteries could give a war time bonus, like Religious Fervor which gives +25% Great General Emergence, or reduction in unit upkeep. That way in the middle ages these guys are more warlike, and mellow out with the discovery of electricity. [Even better yet, would it be possible for Christian Monasteries to allow the training of 0 upkeep Fanatics? (like the ones in Civ 2) Weak, yet cheap.]



Carrot/Stick: Your comment about incentive to have multiple religions made me start thinking. With Unique bonuses for religious buildings there would be a huge advantage in having as many religions as possible.

No Civ for example would ever engage in a religious inquisition, or try to keep other religion's "priest" units out of their borders. So there should be a carrot & stick design to this, so that players must make strategic choices about which Religions to support.

Perhaps having too many religions or varying religious buildings in a city could lead unrest.

Or historical tension, for example having Islamic & Christian buildings in a city could lead to unrest.

The other option, probably the simplest, is that any unique monastery bonuses should only go into effect if that is your state religion. That almost completely diffuses incentive for founding multiple religions. But this could be balanced out with Unique Religious Wonders which would make you want to found as many as you could, or capture their home cities.




Modern Age
In the modern age religions would just provide culture and stability (happiness).

We still see religious tension today, but it is mostly apparent in political and diplomatic situations. Maybe in the modern age having certain state religions will cause some of your citizens to demand certain civics.

Once again using Islam as an example: Instead of demanding emancipation/or religious freedom like in BTS, having State Islam would cause citizens to demand you establish a Theocracy.


Buddhists, Druids... would demand more leftists Civics (like redistribution).

While, Christianity, Shinto, Hindu more conservative (Christianity: Centralization) (Shinto might demand an authoritarian state) (Hindu:Fundamentalism)

Well you get the idea. This also means that as you reach the end game there is more strategy behind selecting your civics, usually you tend to go for the one that is the most advanced, gives you an advantage, but with this system you may want to think twice about Democracy if you have a certain state religion...

 

[ales_]

This is incorrect. Asatru only refers to the modern practice and revival of old Germanic pagan traditions and it's wrong to use it in the context of the religion as a whole.
Granted, there isn't an extant name for the old religion (Definitely not Odinism, which is another modern neopagan movement) but I'm just pointing this out.

Also, Ba'alism is in the same boat with the Teotlism.
I've searched for any links to the Canaanite pantheon, and the closest terms I've found are Elohim (yes, the progenitor for the Jewish concept of it) and I'Lum.
Vodun is actually Vodoun as well, if you'd like to be proper with it.

Xyth, I thought you might wanna see it.

 

[Xyth]

Asatru: I'm aware of the revivalist movement using that name, but decided to stick with it anyway. It's an Icelandic word meaning "allegiance to the Aesir". There was no official name for the religion and I far prefer it to using 'Germanic Paganism' or the likes. One alternative I came across is 'Forn Siðr', but its meaning - "the old way" - implies that the term comes from a time when there was a 'new way', i.e. Christianity.

Ba'alism: It's awkward, but it works. 'Ba'al' was a title given to many West Semitic gods (sometimes humans). Only priests were allowed to utter a god's true name, thus the need for a title. It initially applied only to Hadad (head of the Pantheon), but eventually each Cananite city had their own Ba'al. It means 'master' or 'lord', and thus Ba'alism can be construed to mean worship of said lord(s). 'Elohim' (children of El, the father of Hadad and most other West Semitic gods) makes a certain amount of sense though.

Vodun: I may be wrong about this, but I recall reading that in terms of the West African religion, 'vodun' and 'vodoun' are interchangeable, but in the Caribbean 'vodoun' is the correct term for the Haitian variant.