Feedback: Religions

[lindsay40k]

I've just wasted a GPro by clicking Reformation, looking at my options, and clicking 'exit' to have a look at my resources, happiness levels and tech tree progress before committing. I think there should be a safety net or at least tooltip on that button, especially since this religion system has similarities with Civ V's system in which a lot of players have the habit of Found/enhance religion > look at beliefs available > look at map > choose beliefs.

 

[Xyth]

I've just wasted a GPro by clicking Reformation, looking at my options, and clicking 'exit' to have a look at my resources, happiness levels and tech tree progress before committing. I think there should be a safety net or at least tooltip on that button, especially since this religion system has similarities with Civ V's system in which a lot of players have the habit of Found/enhance religion > look at beliefs available > look at map > choose beliefs.

So long as you do it before ending the turn, you can reopen the Tenets Advisor (F8 or main interface button) and still choose tenets to reform.

 

[saddam_who_sane]

Xyth, will you add a new religion, for example animistic Tengriism?

 

[lindsay40k]

I think Idolatry should give a boost to Culture production. I get that the Worship tenets are all 'penalties', and perhaps it should get an additional penalty to balance it, but to me it suggests that all of the big hunks of rock that could be used to build Wonders and defences are instead being used to make statues of megalomaniacs. I think it'd make an interesting endgame to a Culture game to revert to having all your masons build monuments of the god-king?

It would also mean that if you need to binge on Culture to restore harmony to a rebellious empire, it'd be an idea to set said masons solely tasked to said sculptures to remind everyone you god's the best god.

 

[cel10]

So long as you do it before ending the turn, you can reopen the Tenets Advisor (F8 or main interface button) and still choose tenets to reform.

Is there - or will there ever be - a "wait, no, actually I changed my mind" option on reformation or do we just need to get used to thinking more carefully? I know I've accidentally spent a few GPs that way.

 

[Xyth]

Xyth, will you add a new religion, for example animistic Tengriism?

I'd like to eventually. Religions require an awful lot of art (4 buildings, 1 unit, 1 movie, etc) and there's also some technical challenges with adding more than 18 religions. So it's not a high priority at this time. Tengriism would certainly be one of my first picks though.

I think Idolatry should give a boost to Culture production. I get that the Worship tenets are all 'penalties', and perhaps it should get an additional penalty to balance it, but to me it suggests that all of the big hunks of rock that could be used to build Wonders and defences are instead being used to make statues of megalomaniacs. I think it'd make an interesting endgame to a Culture game to revert to having all your masons build monuments of the god-king?

It would also mean that if you need to binge on Culture to restore harmony to a rebellious empire, it'd be an idea to set said masons solely tasked to said sculptures to remind everyone you god's the best god.

If I did that I'd want to add a similar small bonus to all the Worship tenets. Maybe. At this time, I need to reserve any such bonuses for the new and revised civics in 1.23.

Is there - or will there ever be - a "wait, no, actually I changed my mind" option on reformation or do we just need to get used to thinking more carefully? I know I've accidentally spent a few GPs that way.

It works the same way as Civics, where you make selections, and can then select 'Reformation' or 'Cancel'. I think that's sufficient. What there probably needs to be is some sort of 'Unfinished Reformation' reminder on the main screen, for when you close the Tenets Advisor without confirming your selection. Because you do waste your prophet if do that and then end the turn.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I would love to see Tengriism as an additional religion.
Didn't know it was possible to overcome to 18 religion limit without touching the dll
Otherwise would have suggested it long ago
What's the other options you are willing to add eventually?

 

[Xyth]

I would love to see Tengriism as an additional religion.
Didn't know it was possible to overcome to 18 religion limit without touching the dll
Otherwise would have suggested it long ago

The soft limit is because of the infamous game font files. More than 18 religions requires reorganising things in there and that's a task prone to causing all sorts of grief. I'm pretty confident with editing them, but it's always better to make changes there all at once, rather than add things piece by piece.

What's the other options you are willing to add eventually?

Other than Tengriism my main priorities would be a sub-Saharan African religion, an Andean religion, and Polynesian religion. Sikhism should probably be added, but I'm less interested in that as religion from that part of the world is well covered and there are no civs or leaders in HR associated with it.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I would like to politely suggest that "Idolatry" be renamed "Iconography" or "Monument Building" or some such.

"Idolatry" is a word with some rather negative implications, often used by practitioners of Abrahamic religions in an attempt to marginalize or condemn the religious artwork of other religions.

 

[Xyth]

I would like to politely suggest that "Idolatry" be renamed "Iconography" or "Monument Building" or some such.

"Idolatry" is a word with some rather negative implications, often used by practitioners of Abrahamic religions in an attempt to marginalize or condemn the religious artwork of other religions.

It originated as a pejorative term, and is still used as such, but I still feel it's the most familiar and effective term to describe this particular type of worship. Every other term i can think of is too narrow.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Is "iconography" too narrow? Could you expand on your reasoning a bit? I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Xyth]

Is "iconography" too narrow? Could you expand on your reasoning a bit? I'm not sure I understand.

'Iconography' refers to the images and symbols themselves, and not to act or means of revering them. I also feel it doesn't really encompass objects all that well, especially large ones like Hittite Huwasi stones.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Although the converse then is that something equivalent to the generic term "monument building" would be well suited. The point of the Worship tenets is that they're supposed to represent some major cost imposed on your civilization by its decision to follow this religion, right?

Having everyone spend an hour or two a day at prayers is a cost. Large scale human sacrifice is a cost.

The mere fact that your culture worships 'idols' is not much of a cost.

But the fact that you spend a lot of time and energy and most of your good building stone on building gigantic monuments... that is a cost. So while "idolatry" might refer accurately to the practice of venerating religious imagery, it's not the part of 'how you worship' that really costs you the resources that makes the tenet fit in with the other Worship tenets.

 

[Kapor]

I have some trouble with Apostasy tenet. It doesn't really fit in with other tenets, it isn't consistent and seems out of place.
1) All tenets in all categories have something to with actual religion, i.e. what clergy and "holy books" say about life, world etc. Apostasy seems to be rather secular civic option, something that state, rather than church, does (banish religion from public life). I can imagine priests reforming religion and abandoning persecution to go to proselytism or syncretism. Or abandoning human sacrifice and saying that gods want people to pray. However, I can't imagine priests saying that you shouldn't worship at all anymore.
2) If apostasy is supposed to represent policies like Soviet Union, it seems weird that you need great prophet reformation to do it.
3) It is kind of useless, because, if you don't want state religion, you can just choose not to convert or "convert" to "no state religion". That is same as apostasy, and you don't suffer -2 relations penalty or great prophet

Maybe it should be replaced with something else?

 

[Xyth]

All tenets in all categories have something to with actual religion, i.e. what clergy and "holy books" say about life, world etc. Apostasy seems to be rather secular civic option, something that state, rather than church, does (banish religion from public life). I can imagine priests reforming religion and abandoning persecution to go to proselytism or syncretism. Or abandoning human sacrifice and saying that gods want people to pray. However, I can't imagine priests saying that you shouldn't worship at all anymore.

I agree it's a little odd, but the Worship category needed a tenet like it. Prophets often come from outside existing religious hierarchy, and often aren't priests at all. This is part of what allows them to shake up orthodoxy and current practice so effectively. With this in mind I think it makes sense that a prophet might encourage people to abandon formal worship altogether.

3) It is kind of useless, because, if you don't want state religion, you can just choose not to convert or "convert" to "no state religion". That is same as apostasy, and you don't suffer -2 relations penalty or great prophet

Worship tenet effects apply even if you don't have a state religion, so the -2 to relations is an alternative option to the other penalties there.

 

[Kapor]

I agree it's a little odd, but the Worship category needed a tenet like it. Prophets often come from outside existing religious hierarchy, and often aren't priests at all. This is part of what allows them to shake up orthodoxy and current practice so effectively. With this in mind I think it makes sense that a prophet might encourage people to abandon formal worship altogether.



Worship tenet effects apply even if you don't have a state religion, so the -2 to relations is an alternative option to the other penalties there.

Thank you for your answer!

What is Apostasy supposed to represent, "real world"-wise? Is there any real world example of what this civic tries to emulate?
(I'm not at home now so I can't check out the civilopedia, but I for some reason I remember apostasy having something to do with state atheism rather than disintegration of formal church and worship from within, but religion somehow still existing).

It just occurred to me that maybe Secularization could better name for this tenet? Representing religious structures accepting the separation of church and state, but still existing in society and providing some minor benefits.

 

[Xyth]

What is Apostasy supposed to represent, "real world"-wise? Is there any real world example of what this civic tries to emulate?

I don't have any specific examples in mind, but in general it's meant to represent a shift from organized religion to 'personal spirituality' or even atheism.

(I'm not at home now so I can't check out the civilopedia, but I for some reason I remember apostasy having something to do with state atheism rather than disintegration of formal church and worship from within, but religion somehow still existing).

I haven't written pedia entries for most of the tenets yet. I really need to get onto that.

It just occurred to me that maybe Secularization could better name for this tenet? Representing religious structures accepting the separation of church and state, but still existing in society and providing some minor benefits

I considered Secularism as a name, but it felt too much like a government directed/imposed stance (i.e. more like a civic), rather than a change adopted by believers themselves. Secularism also felt broader in scope than just the Worship category. An apostate society has abandoned traditional worship, but they might still derive morality and such from their belief system.

 

[Kapor]

I considered Secularism as a name, but it felt too much like a government directed/imposed stance (i.e. more like a civic), rather than a change adopted by believers themselves. Secularism also felt broader in scope than just the Worship category. An apostate society has abandoned traditional worship, but they might still derive morality and such from their belief system.

This makes sense - I considered Apostasy as state atheism, anti-theism or secularization, therefore- a government imposed stance/civic. So it made no sense for it to be a tenet, set by great prophet etc.

How would apostasy combine with other tenets in other categories, like persecution? Can you, for example, still build inquisitors?


Also, currently, to see what tenets others have, you have to go to civics advisor.
It would be great to be able to see tenets of others in Religion advisor.
Then, it would be even greater if it somehow grouped civs with exactly same religion and tenets together, so that you can see at glance who shares your exact religion, and who shares religion but not denomination.
You could even assign names to the branches, based on tenets or civilizations (So e.g. Egyptians converting to Christianity would be called Coptic, Russians Orthodox etc. Then other Catholic civs who share their tenets would also be called the same).

 

[s.bernbaum]

FWIW, quoting the Oxford English Dictionary:

apostasy /0əˈpɒstəsi/ noun. Also †-acy. ME.
[ORIGIN Ecclesiastical Latin apostasia from Late Greek alt. of apostasis defection: see -y³.]

1 Abandonment or renunciation of one's religious faith or moral allegiance. ME. ▸ b Renunciation of religious vows without dispensation. ME.

2 The abandonment of principles, beliefs, or party. L16.

 

[Xyth]

How would apostasy combine with other tenets in other categories, like persecution? Can you, for example, still build inquisitors?

Unless a tenet effect specifies 'state religion' in its description it will still function under Apostasy. So you can still generate faith, receive production discounts, build inquisitors, etc.

Also, currently, to see what tenets others have, you have to go to civics advisor.
It would be great to be able to see tenets of others in Religion advisor.
Then, it would be even greater if it somehow grouped civs with exactly same religion and tenets together, so that you can see at glance who shares your exact religion, and who shares religion but not denomination.

Good idea, I'll add it to my todo list.

You could even assign names to the branches, based on tenets or civilizations (So e.g. Egyptians converting to Christianity would be called Coptic, Russians Orthodox etc. Then other Catholic civs who share their tenets would also be called the same).

This would be a lot of work for too little reward I suspect. So many possible combinations.