Feedback: Units

Eucalyptus · Apr 3, 2012

Xyth said:
Given it's just a simple toggle, how about we try disallowing city founding on ice tiles for 1.17 (very nearly finished) and see how it feels. I can look into the more effective sea ice solution for 1.18.

This sounds good to me! Hopefully doing to will expose some extra issues for future consideration.

All glories to Xyth for doing the implementational work! I'm keen to see HR1.17.

Xyth · Apr 14, 2012

Copying inasnapp's Jet Fighter art list to here so we can locate it easier. Thanks for this btw, it's a big help.

Spoiler :

I probably won't try to put these in until nearer the end of 1.18's development (I like to leave the unit art packed for as long as possible to keep loading time down) so if anyone has any additional suggestions in the meantime please post them here.

It would be great if we could construct a similar list for Fighters and Bombers. We'll do post-Industrial ships and vehicles eventually but lets focus on air units for the moment.

Skidizzle · Apr 15, 2012

Xyth said:
Copying inasnapp's Jet Fighter art list to here so we can locate it easier.

Something happened to the URL links when you copied them, they're all dead. But inasnapp's original post is still working. Here's a link to the original post just come back to this tread to comment

Xyth · Apr 15, 2012

Skidizzle said:
Something happened to the URL links when you copied them, they're all dead. But inasnapp's original post is still working. Here's a link to the original post just come back to this tread to comment

Oops, links fixed.

Howard Mahler · Apr 16, 2012

Built one in a game I am playing and it worked as advertised.

In most of the games I play (Giant Map Archipelago) almost all of the area of the map has been settled way, way before colonists are available. Sometimes an oversea area may be unsettled. I do not know if others are finding the same thing. Therefore, although it is an OK idea and does no harm, it does not seem to have much use in the game.

Maybe it can be made available earlier. Maybe something additional can be added. Perhaps for example the ability for colonists to settle some terrain that settlers can't.

Hopefully somebody can come up with some way to tweak colonists to make them more relevant.

Howard Mahler · Apr 16, 2012

Would be possible to have a new promotion for Naval Units?
+25% versus pirates and privateers.

Just a thought.

Xyth · Apr 16, 2012

Howard Mahler said:
Built one in a game I am playing and it worked as advertised.

In most of the games I play (Giant Map Archipelago) almost all of the area of the map has been settled way, way before colonists are available. Sometimes an oversea area may be unsettled. I do not know if others are finding the same thing. Therefore, although it is an OK idea and does no harm, it does not seem to have much use in the game.

Maybe it can be made available earlier. Maybe something additional can be added. Perhaps for example the ability for colonists to settle some terrain that settlers can't.

Hopefully somebody can come up with some way to tweak colonists to make them more relevant.

How useful it is will depend a lot on your game settings. It's meant to become available around the time you get Galleons, in time for overseas colonization of uncharted lands. Of course, if you're playing on a game that doesn't have much or any unsettled territory then it isn't going to be much use. That's not really a problem though. I don't think we need to invent some new capability for the sake of it but if something comes up then sure.

Howard Mahler said:
Would be possible to have a new promotion for Naval Units?
+25% versus pirates and privateers.

The way promotions work would require splitting Pirates and Privateers into their own separate category (Melee/Archery/Naval/etc), which is a pain and probably has some side effects. Another oversight by Firaxis, though it could be achieved via the SDK with minimal effort. Great idea though, I'll keep it in mind in case another solution presents itself.

Simon_Jester · Apr 20, 2012

I would like to make a personal request, since I know nothing whatever of modding Civ and expect this would be very simple (I could do it trivially in Civ II).

Can someone create a variant version of the file describing the Roman Legionary, making it so that it does not upgrade to Heavy Footman, but instead upgrades directly to Rifleman? This is not because it would be a good idea- I don't know if it would be or not. It's... well, basically for personal reasons, so that I could use it for myself.

If no one cares about doing this that's fine, but I wanted to put it out there.

tchristensen · Apr 20, 2012

Simon_Jester said:
I would like to make a personal request, since I know nothing whatever of modding Civ and expect this would be very simple (I could do it trivially in Civ II).

Can someone create a variant version of the file describing the Roman Legionary, making it so that it does not upgrade to Heavy Footman, but instead upgrades directly to Rifleman? This is not because it would be a good idea- I don't know if it would be or not. It's... well, basically for personal reasons, so that I could use it for myself.

If no one cares about doing this that's fine, but I wanted to put it out there.

That can be achieved by just editing the XML in the mod. Simply change the CIV4UnitInfos.xml from Heavy Footman to whatever unit you desire for the upgrade.

Xyth · Apr 20, 2012

The file you need to edit is /History Rewritten/Assets/Modules/Civilizations/Rome/Rome_CIV4UnitInfos.xml. Look for this section:

Code:

			<UnitClassUpgrades>
				<UnitClassUpgrade>
					<UnitClassUpgradeType>[COLOR="Red"]UNITCLASS_MACEMAN[/COLOR]</UnitClassUpgradeType>
					<bUnitClassUpgrade>1</bUnitClassUpgrade>
				</UnitClassUpgrade>
			</UnitClassUpgrades>

And change it to:

Code:

			<UnitClassUpgrades>
				<UnitClassUpgrade>
					<UnitClassUpgradeType>[COLOR="Red"]UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN[/COLOR]</UnitClassUpgradeType>
					<bUnitClassUpgrade>1</bUnitClassUpgrade>
				</UnitClassUpgrade>
			</UnitClassUpgrades>

Simon_Jester · Apr 21, 2012

Thank you, Xyth; I wouldn't have known where to look.

Eucalyptus · Apr 21, 2012

Swordsmen get a nice 50% bonus versus War Elephants, which is well thought-out.

But ... when upgraded to Heavy Footman, the bonus disappears, and the upgraded unit actually becomes weaker against War Elephants. The result is that it becomes easier to withstand Elephants in the Classical Era than in the Medieval Era.

Without also using Elephants, the only way to confront a big Elephant-using enemy is to build many specific defensive Swordsmen (promoted as possible to counter Mounted units), do so before Heavy Footman becomes available, and then (hopefully!) not forget to not upgrade these Swordsmen until gunpowder becomes available. I like specific-purpose units, but this situation is gamey!

So, can Heavy Footman get a 25% bonus against War Elephants? That is better for Elephant-conservation than 50%, and Elephants deserve a chance.

Xyth · Apr 21, 2012

Eucalyptus said:
Swordsmen get a nice 50% bonus versus War Elephants, which is well thought-out.

But ... when upgraded to Heavy Footman, the bonus disappears, and the upgraded unit actually becomes weaker against War Elephants. The result is that it becomes easier to withstand Elephants in the Classical Era than in the Medieval Era.

Without also using Elephants, the only way to confront a big Elephant-using enemy is to build many specific defensive Swordsmen (promoted as possible to counter Mounted units), do so before Heavy Footman becomes available, and then (hopefully!) not forget to not upgrade these Swordsmen until gunpowder becomes available. I like specific-purpose units, but this situation is gamey!

So, can Heavy Footman get a 25% bonus against War Elephants? That is better for Elephant-conservation than 50%, and Elephants deserve a chance.

I've removed the Swordsman's bonus against Elephants as it was given to them at a time when the War Elephant was available much earlier than it is now. I've not yet decided what the new War Elephant counter should be but I don't think Heavy Footman suit. Will depend on whether I manage to progress the Skirmisher line of units or not.

Simon_Jester · Apr 22, 2012

Heavy Footmen are a bad choice for a counter-Elephant. However, they are close enough to the Elephant in strength to fight them on roughly equal terms (8 vs. 8; promotions can be assumed to more or less cancel out). They're really only incrementally weaker than Swordsmen with a 50% bonus: 8 versus 9, when fighting a Strength 8 unit.

Also, Pikemen units work very well against Elephants, and as I recall become available not too much later in the tech tree. So the 'window of vulnerability' is relatively narrow: it isn't all that likely that a civilization will lack access to Swordsmen and Elephants and Pikemen for very long and thus find themselves totally naked and defenseless against Elephant attack.

For that matter, Spearmen are at least a vaguely acceptable defense against Elephants; they're just not a very good one.

Personally, I find it slightly annoying when people worry too much about one point. For example, does a one-point strength boost to the Roman 'Legion' unique unit justify removing the 10% attack bonus against cities? I say "no." Sure, a Strength 7 unit with no bonus is very slightly more effective in city assault than a Strength 6 unit with a bonus. But the difference is very marginal. And since a Strength 7 Legion is still not superior to an Axeman, and only a little superior in other fighting in open country, I don't like the idea that their advantage over normal Swordsmen in the traditional Swordsmen role is a narrow difference of 0.4 effective strength.

Likewise, the difference between "6 Strength, +50%" and "8 Strength" is not that large and won't matter in most conditions.

EDIT: Actually, with Elephants pushed so far along the tech tree, I'm not sure a dedicated counter-Elephant is really necessary. Spearmen can fight Elephants, after all, and by the time Elephants become available, Heavy Footmen (who are strong enough to put up a good fight) are not long coming, and Pikemen (who crush Elephants) are on the way.

Xyth · Apr 23, 2012

Looking it over I think Simon is right. Positioned where they are, there's no need for a dedicated War Elephant counter unit.

Eucalyptus · Apr 23, 2012

Simon_Jester said:
Actually, with Elephants pushed so far along the tech tree, I'm not sure a dedicated counter-Elephant is really necessary. Spearmen can fight Elephants, after all, and by the time Elephants become available, Heavy Footmen (who are strong enough to put up a good fight) are not long coming, and Pikemen (who crush Elephants) are on the way.

I wasn't aware that Elephants had in the meantime time-travelled. My post can then be ignored for now.

Simon_Jester · Apr 23, 2012

They now become available with Nobility, in late classical/early medieval times. Which in some ways makes me sad as they were one of the iconic war-methods of the ancient world. But I see the argument for it; as noted, elephants tend to be very effective "tanks" in ancient times and are hard to counter.

Of course, the "unholy terror" slot in ancient times is now taken up by Horsemen, who attack at 9 against normal infantry units and can really only be stopped by spearmen standing on good defensive terrain...

BBQ man · Apr 25, 2012

Xyth said:
How useful it is will depend a lot on your game settings. It's meant to become available around the time you get Galleons, in time for overseas colonization of uncharted lands. Of course, if you're playing on a game that doesn't have much or any unsettled territory then it isn't going to be much use. That's not really a problem though. I don't think we need to invent some new capability for the sake of it but if something comes up then sure.

I've been enjoying the Colonist, which does arrive with Galleons. New cities become almost immediately productive with positive cash flow. But this is assuming there are uncolonized lands still available.

Xyth · Apr 28, 2012

Simon_Jester said:
Of course, the "unholy terror" slot in ancient times is now taken up by Horsemen, who attack at 9 against normal infantry units and can really only be stopped by spearmen standing on good defensive terrain...

I'd like some more feedback on this unit, especially in comparison to the Horse Archer. I suspect they still need some tweaking.

Howard Mahler · Apr 28, 2012

The revised horseman is very strong, if you have all of the requirements.

It would probably be good to find a way to reduce it just a bit.

Xyth said:
I'd like some more feedback on this unit, especially in comparison to the Horse Archer. I suspect they still need some tweaking.

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