[RD] Feminism

[caketastydelish]

Who commits the vast majority of homicides? From the OP, I'm guessing feminists.

I don't care about the OP(who doesn't know what they're talking about), not do I care who actually does commit the vast majority of homicides. The VICTIMS of homicides are mostly men, thus the 'the world is much safer for a man than a woman' might be partially true at best.

 

[Cutlass]

Why don't you make counterarguments so we can have a discussion?

Doesn't seem like you have any interest in a discussion. You're hiding behind RD to spout misogyny and hatred.

But sure, I'll play. What feminists want is really one thing only. And that's legal and social equality with men.

 

[JollyRoger]

I don't care about the OP(who doesn't know what they're talking about), not do I care who actually does commit the vast majority of homicides. The VICTIMS of homicides are mostly men, thus the 'the world is much safer for a man than a woman' might be partially true at best.

Do you agree that men often tend to get themselves into more dangerous situations than women? A number of homicides are drug deals gone wrong.

 

[caketastydelish]

Do you agree that men often tend to get themselves into more dangerous situations than women? A number of homicides are drug deals gone wrong.

Perhaps, but they're socially pressured to. 'to be the provider'. They have to make money somehow, even if they put themselves in dangerous situations, else they failed at being a man. Maybe if you lived on the streets instead with a comfortable lawyer upper middle class living you would know what it's like.

side note: You're doing more victim blaming regardless. 'women are more likely to be raped because they put themselves in more dangerous situations'.

 

[JollyRoger]

I carry a weapon to protect myself from the dangers inherent in my profession. My expectation is that if I ever have to use it, it will be against a man rather than a woman.

 

[Ryika]

I carry a weapon to protect myself from the dangers inherent in my profession.

If only women carried weapons, then they wouldn't get raped, right?

 

[JollyRoger]

If only women carried weapons, then they wouldn't get raped, right?

Wrong. I could get killed before I have a chance to defend myself. I am merely mitigating risks against the potentially violent.

 

[caketastydelish]

I carry a weapon to protect myself from the dangers inherent in my profession. My expectation is that if I ever have to use it, it will be against a man rather than a woman.

Whatever, you've missed the point completely and moving goalposts.

Anyways, if somebody wants to shoot you they can do it long before you have time to pull out your weapon, or maybe even notice them at all. Even most cops can't react that fast.

 

[caketastydelish]

Wrong. I could get killed before I have a chance to defend myself. I am merely mitigating risks against the potentially violent.

Nobody is disputing men are more potentially violent. I'm saying men are more potentially violent to other men than they are to women. In fact, it's not even close.

 

[JollyRoger]

I agree. But men also tend to put themselves more at risk. I take more risks so far as client selection goes than I think I would if I were female.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Anyways, if somebody wants to shoot you they can do it long before you have time to pull out your weapon, or maybe even notice them at all. Even most cops can't react that fast.

Not if you see them first.

 

[Lexicus]

Nobody is disputing men are more potentially violent. I'm saying men are more potentially violent to other men than they are to women. In fact, it's not even close.

I don't agree with this at all.

 

[Ryika]

Most victims of violent crimes are men.

 

[civver_764]

Evil is defined a profoundly immoral.

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

It seems to be that you are overreaching by claiming feminism as evil. It also seems that to get to your overreach, you are going outside the mainstream understanding of what feminism is and are using extremes as the baseline you are arguing against.

And I have no problem with the idea of gender equality, what I have a problem with is the implementation details, so to speak. That's why I think we need a better movement, one that is more inclusive for women AND men.

I mean, for starters, why is a movement that is for "gender equality" named "feminism"? That certainly seems to suggest a preference for women.

Secondly, the reason I consider the ideology evil is because I believe that it creates tension between the genders. That is undoubtedly harmful for society. The basic premise of feminism is that women are oppressed and men are privileged, am I wrong about this? And I think there are clearly a lot of negative consequences due to this line of thinking. A healthier gender movement would have a more equitable premise.

I do not think letting boys know that rape is wrong is evil. I also think you are mischaracterizing mainstream feminism. By such a diversion, you are making the argument "easier" for yourself in a somewhat dishonest way. Most feminists would agree with you that gender roles have pros and cons for both genders. Is agreement with you profoundly immoral?

It sounds great on the surface, but you have to look at what is being implied about men and boys. I knew rape was wrong from the first time I heard the definition of the word. I don't know a single guy that thinks rape is ok. Yet one big idea of feminism is that we live in some sort of "rape culture", and a negative consequence of this is that men are shamed and treated as inherently violent.

Some degree of male gaze is harmful to women, but I do not think that mainstream feminists claim that all male attention is harmful. And if women are beautiful, do you agree that a woman that is a feminist is beautiful? How can someone that is beautiful also be profoundly immoral?

Sure, why not? Plus I never said that "all feminists are evil".

There is still a gender pay gap, despite laws on the books. And bringing attention to your point of view is not necessarily whiny. I guess you are providing by example of how it can be perceived that way. Even though your thread comes off as a bit whiny, I do not consider your points profoundly immoral - merely profoundly misguided,

Perhaps I should not have used the word "whiny" given the amount of backlash it caused. But whichever word we use, I think it's a valid criticism to make of a social movement. What was the end goal of that protest? What can we add to the law books that is not already there? That's why I called it whiny.

It's not a ridiculous claim. It is overwhelmingly men who send other men to die at war. It is overwhelmingly men who are responsible for the dangerous workplaces that get male workers killed. And judges in the US hanging out harsher sentences to men are disproportionately men.
It of course does matter who's doing it because the whole 'privilege' issue is about what oppressor groups to do oppressed groups. It's not about what oppressor groups are subject to as a result of the systems of oppression they construct.

See, I think this is an example of the evil of feminism. It's putting men and women into these opposing groups. If I get sentenced harshly by a male judge, or beat up by another man, then it is merely my group attacking itself.

I consider myself a feminist. You've posted a lot of drivel in this thread and others about how nasty, evil, bad, wrong, etc. feminists are. Therefore, this IS, to some extent, about me. It's also about every other feminist on this forum, and I include both men and women in that. As I said previously:

Valka, that is patently untrue. Look at my posts in this thread, I haven't made any such claims about feminists. Please stick to what I actually said.

You should really look up that other feminism thread. If I wanted to have the same discussion now as I did then, I'd just go re-read that one.

You are not required to post in this thread you know.

 

[metalhead]

In this case I'm actually going to have to respectfully disagree.

Men making an overwhelming percentage of homicide victims should not be 'men doing it to themselves'. Do you realize how offensive you'd sound if you said rape victims did it to themselves?

I'm tired of justifications or excuses. Men make up 80% of homicide victims. I laugh at the MRA's when they say something like 55% of university students are female because that's not a significant ratio gap. But 80% (four out of five) is. Obviously, there's a clear cut pattern. Even if you want to say 'this is proof that the patriarchy hurts men too' you could say that, but you couldn't feasibly mark it off as irrelevant.

I also don't buy 'men don't have to do those dangerous jobs but they signed up for it'. Some jobs just have to be done (like working on an oil field, among other things). Men are also socially pressured into being the 'provider' which means they're willing to do more dangerous work for more pay, otherwise they failed at 'being a man'.

I actually agree with the feminists that this is the patriarchy hurting men too, but again, don't pretend everything in the world is safe and easy for a man.

There was a study that suicide rates among men skyrocketed whenever the economy of a country collapses. Men are supposed to 'be the provider' and they can't do that if it's hard to find a job.

I'd argue that a lot of this is the product of the same antiquated gender roles which produce social ills for women. I don't view that as strictly a feminist issue, though it certainly intersects with a lot of feminist causes. I also don't view it as a product of "patriarchy." So much of how our society is organized, up to and including virtually all aspects of religious moral and behavioral codes, is badly outdated, and we all suffer for it.

But actually, nobody has to work on an oil rig. As I pointed out in another thread, these jobs carry with them additional reward for the "danger" aspect that comes with them. People work on oil rigs because they earn more money due to the risk involved. People fight fires because they like the pay or, in the case of volunteers, the status of being a firefighter. Men may be naturally more predisposed to these kinds of jobs both because increased physical strength is an asset and because they are naturally more likely to take risks - but that second part might be a product of social norms and mores, not necessarily an innate trait. Also, the numbers are complicated a bit by the fact that injury-prone professions like Nursing and Veterinary Medicine are mostly done by women.

The same logic applies to homicides, I'll bet - the vast majority of homicides are targeted, and targeted for a reason. The question is, why are men 4 times as likely to be targeted? The rape analogy doesn't quite hold; women are overwhelmingly the targets of rape because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be rapists, and most men are heterosexual and therefore choose women as their targets. Women can't stop being women. Whereas men aren't targeted for homicide because murderers are inherently drawn to target men for homicide. There are other factors at play.

 

[metalhead]

Most victims of violent crimes are men.

The large majority of sexual assault and domestic violence victims are women. I wouldn't go so far as to say that makes them the victim of more violent crimes than men generally, but they are depressingly common violent crimes that target women. And they tend to go unreported most of the time. I'm not sure this is a solid conclusion to be making.

 

[JollyRoger]

I just find it odd to complain about shaming while throwing out such words as evil and whiny towards a broad group of people.

 

[warpus]

Feminism is an idea, it can't be good or evil. It's what you do with it that matters.

I suppose ideas can be evil as well, but women's issues is not an evil stance unless you make it evil in some other way, such as by unnecessarily being sexist towards men. Which can happen with some feminists, but it's not an inherent aspect of feminism by any means.

 

[civver_764]

Doesn't seem like you have any interest in a discussion. You're hiding behind RD to spout misogyny and hatred.

Why is it so typical for people on the left to throw out crazy accusations like this? What have I said in this thread that is misogynistic or hateful?

I just find it odd to complain about shaming while throwing out such words as evil and whiny towards a broad group of people.

JollyRoger, you have already tried this card. I am talking about the ideology, not the people.

 

[caketastydelish]

The same logic applies to homicides, I'll bet - the vast majority of homicides are targeted, and targeted for a reason. The question is, why are men 4 times as likely to be targeted? The rape analogy doesn't quite hold; women are overwhelmingly the targets of rape because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be rapists, and most men are heterosexual and therefore choose women as their targets. Women can't stop being women. Whereas men aren't targeted for homicide because murderers are inherently drawn to target men for homicide. There are other factors at play.

You are not only wrong but horribly offensive. For someone to have their life taken away from them, and brutally at that, and then 'he deserved it and it wouldn't happen unless _____ " is very inappropriate.

You can't talk your way out of this, and no more excuses or justifications. Men are much more likely to be homicide victims. Period. Not only is it like this now, but I'm willing to bet it's been like that throughout human history. This is not a recent phenomenon, or to just one culture. When we've played the game a billion times a billion different ways with the same result (only this regard, of course) at some point it's not a coincidence.

You're also missing some important points:

1) When a man beats up or kills another man, if caught, his penalty will generally be less than if he does it to a woman.

2) Men are socially conditioned to only target men. That attacking a lady is the worst thing a man can do, but a woman attacking a man is not only not bad but in many cases hilarious.

"he probably cheated on her". Even if he did, does that justify abusive behavior?