FfH2 0.14 Cosmetic Issues

[Sareln]

What, so we have skilled tier 2-units, easily mass-produceable tier-3 units, and then highly skilled tier-4 units again? It just doesn't seem right for FfH, I guess.

I'll concede the point... though I will point out the maceman has two very important things going for it... completed art and sounds. Perhaps have maces and swords trade places?

 

[Sureshot]

I'd argue that the maceman is plenty flavorful. In most systems, the sword is a specialty weapon, it's what you use when your main focus in life is to kill other people. The mace shows up when you've pulled some poor rube off the street, said "Congratulations, welcome to the Army boy..." showed him how to swing it to smash things, and then thrown him on the front line. I dunno if that's the role the maceman fills here... but then again, it feels in FfH as if we're fielding these highly elite professional forces...

that reminds me, there should be a high level tech that lets you build a weak unit but really cheaply. like swordsmen/axemen are around strength 4 usually, itd be neat if macemen had strength 4 but no bonus vs. melees, and cost a fraction of the cost of swordsmen/axemen and had no maintenance cost (so you could just output tons of them easily and quickly).

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The physical/historical reason macemen are stronger is that it's a lot easier to stop a heavily armored man with a mace or axe than a sword. Though it's true that in fantasy, swords get all the respect.

 

[Sureshot]

lol, give swordsmen critical hit possibilities and give macemen more base damage (dnd style lol)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

lol, give swordsmen critical hit possibilities and give macemen more base damage (dnd style lol)

No, better yet, have divine spellcasters use the maceman graphic!

I'll concede the point... though I will point out the maceman has two very important things going for it... completed art and sounds. Perhaps have maces and swords trade places?

I guess for now it's not so bad as to require a fix right now, but I'd like to, in the future, see each Civ have their own tier-3 melee unit. It would make the Civs all very aesthetically unique, and would give a different feel to the game. I remember that the thing that got me thinking about this in the first place was seeing Elven Macemen. Bizarre, and really not very flavorful. Don't the dwarven hammerfists have their own graphic?

 

[vorshlumpf]

I noticed (i.e., couldn't not notice) that the roar and screech(?) for Eurabatres is quite loud compared to the other sounds in the game. I either had to turn sounds down overall, which I'm not happy with, or risk the occasional jolt of his roar blasting through my surround-sound.

- Niilo

 

[Sareln]

I noticed (i.e., couldn't not notice) that the roar and screech(?) for Eurabatres is quite loud compared to the other sounds in the game. I either had to turn sounds down overall, which I'm not happy with, or risk the occasional jolt of his roar blasting through my surround-sound.

- Niilo

Ah what's a good dragon roar among friends... and family, and roomates

Different subject completely.

Was looking through the civilopedia and noticed that the Arcane Golem has entropy II. Should it then require entropy mana? If that's the case, perhaps it should be slightly stronger than a normal Spartiatoi so the Lurchuip aren't so penalized for using Entropy mana.

 

[Moon Hunter]

1. the popup for the valor spellsays expereince...

2. dunno if bug ot just cosmetic issue, but i had morgoth of the sidar offer me permanent alliance, which i later accepted, but on the side window with all the other leaders i had me showing my research project instead of my ai ally

3. I agree that macemen should be inferior to swordsmen, i mean you go from a crude piece of wood to a skilled master swordsman and then back to a brute with a mace?

 

[QES]

1. the popup for the valor spellsays expereince...

2. dunno if bug ot just cosmetic issue, but i had morgoth of the sidar offer me permanent alliance, which i later accepted, but on the side window with all the other leaders i had me showing my research project instead of my ai ally

3. I agree that macemen should be inferior to swordsmen, i mean you go from a crude piece of wood to a skilled master swordsman and then back to a brute with a mace?

Technically swords are harder to make than maces. But the "maceman" as a conscripted unit is also supposed to represent numbers. Imagine you have 50 swordsmen. And 200 macemen. Yes the glories that be, say that the swordsmen have better equipment, but MORE people were able to be equiped with maces, making them superior. Swords in custom were reserved for the richer warriors. Maces are customary for the common soldier. If in FfH history there is any paralell to be had, then naturally macemen represent the ability of civilizations to field larger numbers of troops, regardless of what their actually wielding.
-Qes

 

[Moon Hunter]

Technically swords are harder to make than maces. But the "maceman" as a conscripted unit is also supposed to represent numbers. Imagine you have 50 swordsmen. And 200 macemen. Yes the glories that be, say that the swordsmen have better equipment, but MORE people were able to be equiped with maces, making them superior. Swords in custom were reserved for the richer warriors. Maces are customary for the common soldier. If in FfH history there is any paralell to be had, then naturally macemen represent the ability of civilizations to field larger numbers of troops, regardless of what their actually wielding.
-Qes

That is true, but if you compare to our world, the advancement of a state's armed forces doesn't depend on the size of the army, more on how good training the forces have, meaning there is a strong focus on rather small specialized units.
If in medieval japan you had 50 samurai against 200 regulars, if the regulars didn't have cannons, you could have kissed them good bye.

And elves are especially known to have extremly good training. In traditional DnD they even get a +1 to hit when using swords, being the usual weapon of choice for the skilled.
In the game you go from crude club of warior to swords on swordsmen to macemen's clubmaces and again back to immortals' swords...

RPG games, to which i add this marvelous mod, focus on strong units, archmages and sorcerors being able to command whole armies. Imagine you have 20 mages and 200 macemen..., even in the game, if the mages had proper promotions, they could stand a considerable chance despite 10>1 outnumbering.

 

[Moon Hunter]

Cosmetic suggestion> delete/flush unneeded threads for more clarity...

But as to game issues> in civilopedia, the kraken says Requires Never
One of the loading screens still says elven archer is fellowship special unit... it's archer of leaves.
Archer of leaves popup says he can create forests and has woodsman... nope
Sidar palace civilopedia entry says +428mil happy for amurite, balseraph and calabim palace
The basic religious disciples have in their popups written they can create work for 20 culture, but in my current game it's 30 culture... dunno if it depends on game speed.

 

[BeefontheBone]

That does depend on game speed - it's 20 at Normal speed, more on Epic and Marathon.

Lots of things require Never - it's a separated tech used for summons and similar units.

 

[Moon Hunter]

That does depend on game speed - it's 20 at Normal speed, more on Epic and Marathon.

Lots of things require Never - it's a separated tech used for summons and similar units.

I know, but it's never in the popup... like all other summoned units

As for the culture boost... then maybe the popup should say it provides a small boost instead of direct numbers, unless they can be made variable depending on the game speed.

 

[Sureshot]

No, better yet, have divine spellcasters use the maceman graphic!

Thats a good idea, maybe for the bannor priests so they could attack instead of kneeling and watching their enemies die.

Technically swords are harder to make than maces. But the "maceman" as a conscripted unit is also supposed to represent numbers. Imagine you have 50 swordsmen. And 200 macemen.

It'd be more accurate then to make the macemen weaker units that are cheaper to make (like i previously suggested). If swordsmen are 4 strength with +% vs. melee units, macemen could be strength 4 without any bonuses (to reflect their poor training and mass producedness) but be significantly cheaper (thus making them worthwhile to build and the tech that allows them very useful for quick production). Or just make them conscripted in mass numbers, like 1 population conscripted gives 3 or 4 macemen. They'd not be seen as superior to swordsmen, but theyd be prefered over them when it came time for war.

 

[QES]

On Macemen and Swordsman.

In RL history, while the sword is indeed the "higher quality" weapon. It does not follow that historical pattern of use. The sword (short roman and later medeval longs, scimitars, etc) was reserved for upper classes. The main contingant of troops was alloted some other kind of weapon, the most easily manufactured was the Mace.

Now, the Sword is generally regarded as a superior weapon, especially in 1 to 1 fighting. However, In the early middle ages, when swords were more used, conflicts WERE generally smaller. Unit sizes of troops were less, and swords were carried by the warrior classes into battle. And since there were few "other" kinds of troops, swords (specifically for infantry) became the hallmark of a Warrior.

Later, when soldiery, and not warriorship was emphasized, and large armies could be fielded, the emphasis went to ease of use and mass production. In this, the technological (and therefore time liniar) result was a simplification and degredation of arms. Lower quality, more of em.

So yes, while a sword is "better" than a mace, this CAN mean that the mace comes later.......because it represents larger scale armies. Each units strength is not based soley on the weapons they use, but the amount of troops IN that unit. A higher STR could mean MORE troops armed. Logistics are important to remember....and technology also represents logistics in warfare.

-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

But real life concerns are of the smallest importance, here. I'd say that the three main concerns, in order, for a fantasy mod, are as follows:

1) Fun
2) Coolness
3) Believability

Now, however many macemen real armies could field in comparison to swordsmen, that fact falls under believability. The fact that we go back to spartiatoi and berzerkers illustrates this. If we want to have the tier-3 unit be slightly weaker and significantly cheaper, that's one thing. However, having things as they are now sacrifices (2) for the sake of (3), not a very good policy for a fantasy mod.

I am beginning to think that we could bump up swordsmen/axemen to tier-3 units and have some sort of intermediate unit between the elf with club and the highly skilled practicioner of the ancient elven art of swordplay.

 

[Victrix]

Shouldn't "The Drown" be "The Drowned"?

 

[evanb]

It's been like that since time immemorial. It sounds better that way, IMO.

 

[QES]

@Victrix
"Drown" is/can be plural and/or past tense. In fact, I have a story about how I once drown. I did not die.......everyone always thinks Drown means death, but it doesnt, one can "drown to death" just like being "Shot to death" the method doesnt imply the result.

@Chand~
I'm not saying there's not a "better" way. But I am saying that they way it is now has a "logic" that is acceptable to it. Sure, i agree it can be made better, but I think it fits the 3 precepts you illistrated (and i agree with).

It makes sense how it is now, if it changed, it would make sense that way as well. But its not "illogical" as such, automatically.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

i think itd be fun (and coolness, but coolness is fun, and shouldnt take up 2 spots lol), and believable to have a higher tech unit that is cheap to create and maintain at the sacrifice of being same strength and with less specialization (i.e. no +X% vs melee bonus) since you could start sending masses of units at enemies and use them more carelessly (like using them to surround a city to reduce its yields a lot without worrying that they'll die.. since theyre so cheap to make). That would allow many new strategies and more battlefield playing.