Frozen-Vomit
Prince
Is there a reason that Skeletons are not part of the Melee unit class?? I always thought they were and was quite shocked that my warriors with +80% vs melee still have no chance against those barrow guards.
FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Nikis-Knight
Deity
I think it is to prevent them from getting promotions.
Jean Elcard
The Flavournator
Right, but is there no other way to gain the same effect? I fell for this illogical behaviour some time ago too and it still bothers me.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Why shouldn't they get promotions? It might make them occasionally worth summoning. That spell is currently too weak in the mid to late game. I would at least like to see then get some metal weapon promotions.
Completely agree. I've brought this up before myself. Just give them a promotion that blocks XP and/or prevents them from leveling.
...because they last forever, unlike other summons.
Kael
Deity
Skeletons are unthinking, they don't have ther mental prowless to learn promotions.
And yes, we could program a special function that blocks leveling. But removing the unitcombat does the same and doesnt require special code.
And yes, we could program a special function that blocks leveling. But removing the unitcombat does the same and doesnt require special code.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
That does mean they can't use better metal weapons.
vorshlumpf
Emperor
Sorry, I guess my mental image of skeletons using rusted swords and armour is too strong. Or, perhaps, my image of a skeleton sitting down with a whet stone and his favourite sword is not strong enough.
- Niilo
- Niilo
The annoying thing is that melee combat bonus promotions don't work against them, which seems very counterintuitive.
Jean Elcard
The Flavournator
Exactly, it's completly counterintuitive. I understand that there is not enough brain in this wan skulls to learn anything but: They are carrying a sword and even if it is rusty I suppose they are not throwing it or wear it just for style reasons. Theses guys want to engage my poor souls in a melee fight with it, nothing else.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Well, there are anti-undead promotions.
vorshlumpf
Emperor
Is 'melee' simply classifying the weapon being used? What about monks if they use hand-to-hand? Are they then 'animals'?
I've thought of these terms more loosely, and accepted that skeletons are simply tougher to develop specific tactics against (in terms of promotions).
- Niilo
I've thought of these terms more loosely, and accepted that skeletons are simply tougher to develop specific tactics against (in terms of promotions).
- Niilo
sixs_monkey
Warlord
They are pretty tough early on. Maybe pagan temples should be places where the first anti-undead promotion could be learned, perhaps with combat 1 as a prereq, just as a thought. 
Blakmane
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 447
I want to raise the issue of Hell terrain/Armageddon counter in here again, because I feel that it is a serious balance issue that hasn't been addressed at all- in fact, if anything it has become worse.
What am I talking about? Well actually it's two separate things so I'll start with the first.
A) Hell terrain.
The Problem
Unless you are hyborem, hell terrain is bad. It destroys your improvements, covers important resources with permafire and generally makes a nuisance of itself. Before, this was justified by the fact that it was supposed to 'hurt others more than it hurt ashen veil players'. This however is now totally defunct due to the fact that hell doesn't even spread in good lands. In fact, it got to the point in my last game where I had to sanctify my own lands as sheiam, using mobius witches, in order to restore their productivity and keep myself viable. And no the measly 10% bonus for demons does not justify it- only hyborem really benefits from this and it is pitiful anyway.
Because of this, and due to the fact that hyborem is a backstabbing bastard, there is absolutely no positive benefits to summoning him unless you wish to play him- all he means atm is one of your enemies gets a free team member in the form of basium.
Some suggestions to fix this problem:
1. Make hell give benefits instead of detriments, and make it only spread to evil lands
2. Make the benefits of hell only accessable to AV civs- everyone else gets detriments, used in conjuction with 3.
3. Make it spread in good lands again
B) The armageddon counter.
The Problem
There is almost no reason to raise the counter, if you are an AV race (hyborem excepted). All of the effects of a high counter hurt ashen veil civs just as much as any other civ, so why should they bother raising it at all? All it does is make a conquest victory harder because suddenly there are barbs everywhere, and all your enemies are dogpiling you. Let's do a quick look at some of the effects of the armageddon events:
1: Blight. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to ashen veil civs
2: AI's more willing to dogpile. effects everyone equally- no advantage to ashen veil civs, possible disadvantage due to AV being a late religion and so less widespread (more prone to dogpiling).
3: Hellfire. This is useful to hyborem, but because he backstabs AV civs so much it can be a disadvantage to them.
4: Horsemen. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs
5: Avatar of Wrath. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs
6: Armageddon. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs. Hurts successful civs more as they have more heroes/pop to lose.
As you can see there is almost no reason for AV civs to raise the AC. In fact, often in the games I play (AV being my fav religion) I purposely sanctify ruins and do generally do my very best to keep it low (so to keep civs from dogpiling me, and make my conquest/religious victory easier).
I would consider this a serious balance issue.
Some possible suggestions on how to fix this problem:
1. Make all armageddon events effect only neutral/good civs
2. Increase the chance the AV will spread to another city as the AC increases
3. Make the stigmata promotion easier to get for AV civs
4. As the AC increases, AV civs like each other more, but non-AV civs dislike each other more.
In order to properly balance the kinds of changes as above-
5. Make the AC considerably harder to increase and decrease, so AV civs have to work hard to raise it and get the benefits (while non AV civs have to work hard to keep it down, probably as hard as they currently have to because IMO it is difficult if there are any AV civs around.)
All this would make the AC a much more dynamic and involved part of the game- like it is supposed to be. It would also solve the problem of the lack of easy victory conditions for evil races- good players get the altar, why not make high AC give evil races such big advantage as I have suggested? The balance is already designed like that, just the AC isn't giving nearly enough advantage to counter the awesomeness of the altar victory.
A counter of 100 should mean AV civs have a huge advantage over other civs. It doesn't. They've put in all the effort to get it there, had all other religions dogpiling them (with massive -8 relations modifiers), for what? For the joy of getting 3/4 of their heroes destroyed, all their city's pop halved and a huge avatar of wrath killing their armies? Go figure.
Sorry for the huge post
What am I talking about? Well actually it's two separate things so I'll start with the first.
A) Hell terrain.
The Problem
Unless you are hyborem, hell terrain is bad. It destroys your improvements, covers important resources with permafire and generally makes a nuisance of itself. Before, this was justified by the fact that it was supposed to 'hurt others more than it hurt ashen veil players'. This however is now totally defunct due to the fact that hell doesn't even spread in good lands. In fact, it got to the point in my last game where I had to sanctify my own lands as sheiam, using mobius witches, in order to restore their productivity and keep myself viable. And no the measly 10% bonus for demons does not justify it- only hyborem really benefits from this and it is pitiful anyway.
Because of this, and due to the fact that hyborem is a backstabbing bastard, there is absolutely no positive benefits to summoning him unless you wish to play him- all he means atm is one of your enemies gets a free team member in the form of basium.
Some suggestions to fix this problem:
1. Make hell give benefits instead of detriments, and make it only spread to evil lands
2. Make the benefits of hell only accessable to AV civs- everyone else gets detriments, used in conjuction with 3.
3. Make it spread in good lands again
B) The armageddon counter.
The Problem
There is almost no reason to raise the counter, if you are an AV race (hyborem excepted). All of the effects of a high counter hurt ashen veil civs just as much as any other civ, so why should they bother raising it at all? All it does is make a conquest victory harder because suddenly there are barbs everywhere, and all your enemies are dogpiling you. Let's do a quick look at some of the effects of the armageddon events:
1: Blight. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to ashen veil civs
2: AI's more willing to dogpile. effects everyone equally- no advantage to ashen veil civs, possible disadvantage due to AV being a late religion and so less widespread (more prone to dogpiling).
3: Hellfire. This is useful to hyborem, but because he backstabs AV civs so much it can be a disadvantage to them.
4: Horsemen. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs
5: Avatar of Wrath. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs
6: Armageddon. Effects everyone equally- no advantage to AV civs. Hurts successful civs more as they have more heroes/pop to lose.
As you can see there is almost no reason for AV civs to raise the AC. In fact, often in the games I play (AV being my fav religion) I purposely sanctify ruins and do generally do my very best to keep it low (so to keep civs from dogpiling me, and make my conquest/religious victory easier).
I would consider this a serious balance issue.
Some possible suggestions on how to fix this problem:
1. Make all armageddon events effect only neutral/good civs
2. Increase the chance the AV will spread to another city as the AC increases
3. Make the stigmata promotion easier to get for AV civs
4. As the AC increases, AV civs like each other more, but non-AV civs dislike each other more.
In order to properly balance the kinds of changes as above-
5. Make the AC considerably harder to increase and decrease, so AV civs have to work hard to raise it and get the benefits (while non AV civs have to work hard to keep it down, probably as hard as they currently have to because IMO it is difficult if there are any AV civs around.)
All this would make the AC a much more dynamic and involved part of the game- like it is supposed to be. It would also solve the problem of the lack of easy victory conditions for evil races- good players get the altar, why not make high AC give evil races such big advantage as I have suggested? The balance is already designed like that, just the AC isn't giving nearly enough advantage to counter the awesomeness of the altar victory.
A counter of 100 should mean AV civs have a huge advantage over other civs. It doesn't. They've put in all the effort to get it there, had all other religions dogpiling them (with massive -8 relations modifiers), for what? For the joy of getting 3/4 of their heroes destroyed, all their city's pop halved and a huge avatar of wrath killing their armies? Go figure.
Sorry for the huge post
Kael
Deity
A few things you didnt mention. Ashen Veil players have access to the Sacrifice the Weak civic. This halves their food needs and allows them to survive on hell terrain much better than anyone else.
The AC is not "evil", think of it as physical manifestation of war. In general the AC going up is intended to be a bad thing for everyone. But there are some advantages of it. It allows the creation of some units that can't be made without it. It strengthens units with the Stigmata promotion. It increases the amount of creatures that will come through planar gates and the chance they will (the Sheaim are the best served by a high armageddon count). Spreading hell to non-AV lands is advantageous to AV players since other players cant use sacrifice the weak. It also gives access to Sheut Stones which strengthen your creatures.
There was never a time when hell spread to good lands
The AC is not "evil", think of it as physical manifestation of war. In general the AC going up is intended to be a bad thing for everyone. But there are some advantages of it. It allows the creation of some units that can't be made without it. It strengthens units with the Stigmata promotion. It increases the amount of creatures that will come through planar gates and the chance they will (the Sheaim are the best served by a high armageddon count). Spreading hell to non-AV lands is advantageous to AV players since other players cant use sacrifice the weak. It also gives access to Sheut Stones which strengthen your creatures.
There was never a time when hell spread to good lands
could the one that kills off living units have them reborn as thier infernal counterparts if you worship the veil?
Chandrasekhar
Determined
The problem I have with this is that Sacrifice the Weak works even better when your lands aren't covered by Hell terrain.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Sure, but it's still a benefit for taking Ashen Veil over a different religion.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
But does the benefit to penalty ratio stack up that well with the other four religions you can choose? I don't think so.
