FfH2 0.33 Changelog

I can understand that to a certain extent (even though it whould be a simple and intuitive way to make them want to settle near lots of water as opposed to just a bit of it or none.
And more features / harder placement disadvantage AI + add complexity.), but then you might want to find another way to boost them. (be it a building which further improves yield of water tiles later on in the game or military or other improvements for water tiles (perhaps a more production focused one) which fit more aestetically among other possibilities.)


With 16 possible water tiles with at best 4 ports whould have to be considerably better to compensate at least a bit (along the lines of about 2 Food and 3 commerce and 2 Production in addition to existing yields at port level. Which whould create its own problems by clearly favoring some locations over others creating a placement-headace and make Lanun hard to play. So such a Port for Hannah if coastal whould yield 6 Food, 3 Production and 9 Commerce then. 8 Commerce if in ocean or Falamar. 7 commerce if Ocean and Falamar.)
Normal cities are rather only having 1 Port or 2 with the new rules which without extreme additions to yields like suggested above just doesn't cut it to make costal tiles interesting (again a yield for ports like they are now is rather standart for most mid-game civs. Even those without an affinity for a certain terrain.).

Or you decrease the necessary distance between ports by one (so the minimum distance between Ports is 2 which whould mean about 7/8? ports at max in above example and about 3-5 Ports in an average half-coastal city not all that spammy) and increase the maximum yield by 1 Food 2 Commerce and 1 Production each (making for another level of growth for those coves possibly called ??? . Which whould mean a final yield of 5 food / 2 Production and 8/7/6 commerce depending on leader and location). Still creates some issues but that should even it out at least a bit and lead to AI plaing Lanun reasonably well.


You have a clear dilemma of aestetics vs. playability / AI-ability (im quite sure of that. You have all the means to try out the difference between super-ports and port-spam without much effort by AI autoplay i reckon) / fun here imo.
Plus aestetics can be changed if that is such a big issue. :p (easier said than done as always. :D)

An additional option to make their life more interesting whould be to add additional maritime resources (possibly Lanun only / possibly not) and make maritime resources more common overall.


On the other hand adding a building (like a trading post or the likes) which whould enhance the yields of all water tiles by 1 Food and 1 commerce (Should be, as seen with Lighthouses...) / 1 additional commerce on near-river land tiles (if that is doable), whould take care of the aestetics / pirate cove spam thing (and largely reduce the need to enhance coves by any big margin). But whould the AI be able to grasp it?
If the AI can grasp it than that might be the best solution of them all including for players since it requires way less micromanagement / placement headace + it whould also make lakes more attractive even without acess to oceans (which seems thematic for them as well and make Lanun viable on much more mapscripts.).

That building should not only work in costal cities though (unlike harbors and lighthouses). Otherwise the AI whould be gimped again.
Perhaps Optics or Trade whould make a good tech spot for such a building making it furtherly viable to go for those Techs early as the Lanun? With Trade beeing the more powerful option since the new path to said tech and Opticts beeing a tad weaker.
So if possible i whould advise you take this last route since it offers a fix to most if not all those problems.
 
I'm thinking implementing something like the JImprovementLimit modcomp and have build Pirate Cove be a normal build order rather than a python spell could be good. True, it isn't really necessary, but I would like the ability to make normal build orders have distance requirements and to require preexisting improvements. (I personally am not a fan of having forts or coves upgrade automatically, and would prefer if you had to have workers/workboats do the upgrades.) Another downside, of course, is that the modcomp hadn't been released yet.

Something like JCultureControl could also be very nice, but it may be a bigger change than you'd be willing to consider. (If it were entirely up to me, I'd probably say to implement a code allowing improvements to effect culture just like cities can plus add a mechanism to let certain improvements and cities with certain buildings be able to expand cultural borders based on the current strength of the garrison. I'd probably use a JCityLimit-like mechanism for the sprawling trait, where the number of cities you can have is limited but can increase through the course of the game and the number of cities remaining before hitting the limit is displayed when you select a settler, plus give the Kuriotates unique improvements that expand cultural borders more. Pirates Coves/Harbors/Port would also expand Cultural Borders, allowing the Lanun to control most of the sea even if they have few cities.)





I would like more terraforming spells too though. In my version, Tsunami will be moved to be the Water III spell again (Water Elemental will probably be a Water/Dimensional Cross sphere spell), and will have a chance to turn each (non-city) tile within range to a coast tile temporarily. (I'm added several teraforming spells, most of which only change things temporarily. I'd really like it if there were tempFeature and tempImprovement functions too. I implemented these myself based on the tempTerrain function a while back and managed to get the DLL to compile without errors, but I forgot to test them before making other changes that broke that version of my modcomp. I'll probably try again soon, if I can't get you or Xienwolf to do the work for me.)
 
You have a clear dilemma of aestetics vs. playability / fun here imo.

FfH is starting to have a decently broad player base, and not everyone likes the same thing.

I for example do not like extreme terraforming. I do not like that you can make as much water as you want with the Lanun, and I do not like having to restrict myself just to have fun. (For example, I try to avoid making the pirate cove lakes, and I never intentionally pillage them to create water.)

Having workboats make the pirate coves sounds better to me.
 
Well no need to push that point any more since Kael has already said why that ability has been changed from workers to workboats and its hard to argue with helping the AI by axing a concept it could never grasp. (so worker coves is out of the question for anything but modmods.)

(The qouted passage was not about terraforming anymore but about cove-spam which is hardly terraforming and no infringement on workboats placing coves. So please review the post since you seem to have got that one wrong. ;))

That doesn't mean though Lanun don't need some serious water-related advantage to compensate lest it becoming a subpar / downright bad civ (depending on mapscript.).
Lanun becoming another Elhoim (which will become near-overpowered in 0.33) / Doviello creates issues of its own (like needing something else eating another heap of design-time)
So better think of that now than later on when it creates more work.

PS: Doesn't it have those player base for a long time allready? :p (At least since shadow if not since fire.)
 
Well my response was to all your posts on this matter.
And I see you've added quite a bit to the last post now since I last read it.

Anyways. To add to what you are saying in the end, I have always missed the abilities from vanilla civ to make water better. The Colossus, that national wonder that gives +1 hammer on every water tile, and the Customs House +100% Trade route income from foreign trade routes (thats what it does, not only intercontinental) are all nice.

Now coastal cities have many benefits as it is;
- More trade route income as well as the possibilities of more trade routes
- More health
- Able to build naval units
- No roads required to hook it up if have other coastal cities and the requirements
- Etc

It's possible that pirate coves could need a boost in yield, how much I am not sure though. If other boosts to water is introduced, they might not need any.
 
If we change the building of coves to work boats, can we lessen the distance between, or increase their value? As this will decrease the total potential number of coves (Restricted to existing water tiles) and remove a few of the fun tricks of the civ (Creating waterways).
 
@Grey Fox:
Well since Kael has made a clear statement i had to aceept the situation as set
hence there is some change in the direction of my posts (hence they are not! coherent.).
(And long posts don't write themselves + new ideas come along / especially if in response to a post / in an ongoing conversation + i don't want to loose big heaps of text if something goes wrong.)


But quoting that passage in above context made it look rather differently to me. Sorry if i got that wrong. ;)


@ Zechnophobe: As outlined in the post starting this page and adding what Kael said about the matter in the post before adding a new water-boosting building might be a better / the best? option.
 
Here's my thoughts then. Pirate cove produces as normal. Lighthouses cause pirate coves to produce +1 production. Move lighthouses to Fishing from Sailing.

That last bit is something most civ's would like to have, and it make the Fishing tech that much more of an obvious pickup for the lanun.

In general, I'd like to see a smidge more production for the ocean based lanun. Far too often they get their nice little economy going, but just can't support it due to a lack of production. The medium food, medium commerce tiles just aren't as efficient as grassland cottages in the long run. Coves maxing out at 2 production (via lighthouse) would help that a nice bit.
 
That whouldn't really help fix the overall problem (without pirate cove spam. Which Kael explicitly dislikes.) +1 Production / +2 Production (at best) for a whole city doesn't really fix alot of the Problems (as seen with elves in Flatlands which still are not real huge on prodution even with their forests.).

Up until now Lanun could compensate via Conquest and Slavery civics but that will change now (with way less food / pop to burn) if noting is done. (netting them less production compared to now with above suggestion alone, not more.)

But as an additional advantage on top of everything else it sounds fine. :)

If Lanun whould get a UB Lighthouse which whould add 2 Food + 1 hammer or commerce per coastal tile instead of 1 Food only on the other hand... (i whould still favor another building as outlined before. But if thats to much clutter...)
 
MagisterCultuum said:
Something like JCultureControl could also be very nice, but it may be a bigger change than you'd be willing to consider. (If it were entirely up to me, I'd probably say to implement a code allowing improvements to effect culture just like cities can plus add a mechanism to let certain improvements and cities with certain buildings be able to expand cultural borders based on the current strength of the garrison.

PLEASE DO! that would be brilliant!
 
I agree with the the name change from Obilisk to Monument, after all, you build a statue, not an obielisk.
 
NO! MY WATERWAYS!!!

Can I suggest a 'canal' improvement, or allowing citadels to give ship travel at reduced movement? Someone make a python modcomp, now! (Me,nah) Sez, make a new canal terrain graphic, I command you!
*I can boss you around because I am important and want my waterways.
10cars
 
I would really like it if (about the same time you let improvements generate culture ;)) you split the ActAsCity tag up into 3 or 4 different tags. One for combat odds, one for claiming any resource (I'd also like the ability to make cities not automatically collect resources, but instead allow improvements to be built in city tiles, but thats a different story), one for acting as a canal, and one for basing air units.


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I'm still of the opinion that it would be better to make Planar Gates give a free promotion rather than add a Mage Guild UB. Planar gates just seem too expensive for what they currently do, at least early in the game. (I'm also considering making the Planar Gate be the Mage Guild UB, and requireing the Sorcery tech for Mobius Witches to spawn.)

I was also wondering if it might be a good idea to make the free promotion be applied on move.

I still think that buildings which apply promotions on move should only give those promotions out to your team.
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Why does the Sheaim worldspell only damage units in cities? It seems to me like that makes it too easy for a human to avoid. AIs tend to keep more of their army garrisoned, while humans (especially those with the Nox Noctis) tend to leave more out in the field. I think it would be better to make this lose the if pPlot.isCity(): restriction.
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City Flipping from culture really needs to eject the units in the city rather than delete them. I hate it when a Hero (especially something like Gurid or one fo the horsemen) is defeated without combat.
 
*sigh* I wish I understood python programming to understand most of magister's idea's, I'll have to look into that sometime soon.

I do like the new Sheim mage guild, I don't know why everyone is complaining about the planar gate's expensiveness, in the long run you can recieve a dominating force through those things, sure it's not the early rushes that everyone is so fond of, but those early-rushes are never as fun as the long played out games that follow the lore more closely.

P.S. Still waiting for those early game events that I'm so looking forward to!
 
I would really like it if (about the same time you let improvements generate culture )...

heh, Kael mentioned about it in Marnoks modmod thread, and something like it will be implemented in 0.34
 
Erm, I thought they already did so? I know in my current game, I just lost a city to Sidar by culture-flip, and my garrison just got ejected from their borders. Perhaps the killing on flip only applies to barbarians?
 
City Flipping from culture really needs to eject the units in the city rather than delete them. I hate it when a Hero (especially something like Gurid or one fo the horsemen) is defeated without combat.
Yes. That's how I killed the Avatar of Wrath last time, and it was pretty laughable:

- Look, Avatar of Wrath, I've written a poem for you.
- Oh, so cute!
* Pop! Avatar of Wrath disappears...
 
...
Anyways. To add to what you are saying in the end, I have always missed the abilities from vanilla civ to make water better. The Colossus, that national wonder that gives +1 hammer on every water tile, and the Customs House +100% Trade route income from foreign trade routes (thats what it does, not only intercontinental) are all nice.

Now coastal cities have many benefits as it is;
- More trade route income as well as the possibilities of more trade routes
- More health
- Able to build naval units
- No roads required to hook it up if have other coastal cities and the requirements
- Etc

It's possible that pirate coves could need a boost in yield, how much I am not sure though. If other boosts to water is introduced, they might not need any.

Wasn't there a UB in BtS for the Dutch that added +1:hammers: to each coastal tile? I think that would fit the Lannun nicely. Maybe have it be a unique forge?
 
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