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FfH2 0.34 Change log

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Berlin, Europe
    Many, many complaints about an "utter overpoweredness" that was in reality beeing a nerf. (it was harder to do before, not less powerful. But people just took care to look at the numbers and jumped to conclusions.)

    Don't try to discuss this much though (just an advice ;) Lest you wan't to argue with a wall or want to be called a lanun-fanboy who has no clue really.), those people complaining won't really take time to even consider that fact.
    If 100 people find this way overpowered because its simple to use (and was likely so hard to effectively use before than many people didn't really bother with it.) and has a big effect there is no point in a few people pointing out that its a nerf sadly. You won't really convince them.


    But one thing is to consider which might give the critics credibility.

    If those complainers whould have known and taken the time to actually use the real power of the old coves (grand yields from terraforming, including more food + tactical value + acess to sea-buildings for most / all of your cities) they whould have likely complained even far more. So what i wrote above isn't really a proof that their claims are wrong.

    Just that the reason why those complaints were raised after a nerf seems rather very very odd. (And the main reason for the first nerf / cove enhancement was AI inability as well as player-comfort. So a very sound one.)
    Especially if even just for the economic part the maths isn't all that hard...


    Concensus more or less seems to be that with such coves as in 0.33. Lanun are overpowered. I whould disagree strongly (founded on extensive gametest of the old Lanun + simple math mainly and i found them a top-tier big-fun civ with the old terraforming-coves. A rather strong economic but overall ok one with the new ones and a rather mediocre to weak one overall now (because of rather weak military which is a very important aspect of FFH 2).
    But that is perhaps partially offset by the new wonder and other changes. We'll soon see how it works out.). But those voices like me seem to be a minority. And Kael in that case listened to the majority calling for further nerfs. If its a good or bad thing i belive lies in the eye of the beholder. ;) (not the mystical creature meant here of course... :p)
    There are quite some things speaking for listening to the majority of the userbase though regardless of the hard facts. Even if their train of thought in calling for such a change is somewhat odd.



    PS: The thing with assasins is another odd one. Perhaps also founded in many people complaining in Assasins / Marksmen beeing soo over-the top. (i have to admit i overall see a bit more merit in that claim than the claims about the overpoweredness of new coves. Still not sufficient to woe me.)
    I whould disagree with that notion as well (and if anything whould much rather have seen a power-cut of one point of strength to assasins than a national Limit. If assasins whould be viewed as a real big problem at all, which i don't see.).
    But i am just one opinion and i sure whouldn't pretend i whould be able to create the mod in a better way than Kael + Team do. And i sure will still be very fond of FFH 2 one way or the other even with some things i dislike.
    Also as written i could still play with 0.33 if i like the old rules for a change in an odd game. Its polished enough to not feel bad about such a thing.


    @ Zechnophobe: Kael allready hinted that he might very well change the Death 1-summon due to lore-issues with Death 1 beeing about summoning a skeleton (very hard to control if i remember rightly. In comparison to say a Zombie.)
    So it might not be utterly unlikely we'll get to see a new undead + a new spell for Death 1 someday / some changelog soon. :)

    I for one am fine with Skelletons beeing melee (couldn't think of a more fitting unitclass for them) but find specteres odd as melee and whould rather see them as a recon-type unit (that whould make Skeletons the Units with which one can pillage. Makes more sense to me anyways if one minds their state of beeing corporeal / noncorporeal respectively. Also specteres whould be turned down a tad bit. Which might be sensible. They do deliver quite an all in one package right now...).

    So 2 instances were the "balance anything to death" because balance > fun crowd has have won. Sadly imo.
     
  2. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Re: assassins.

    I just checked the first post and Kael's removed the "assassins are national units" change.
     
  3. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Goleta, California
    Because they were *awesome*. The 'nerf' you mention in .33 was actually allowing them to grow almost as fast as they could build settlers (Consider the maintenance cost of a new city, consider that a fully upped pirate port gives 9 trade... see the problem? Cities built one water pay for themselves in a mere 15 turns).

    Editing because I realized BlackMantles big post was on this, so I'll address it a bit.

    The difference between worker based coves and non worker based coves:

    Worker:
    You can do a little terraforming to increase the size of inland lakes, and occasionally connect routes otherwise unconnectable.
    Allows some cities to get more ports than they otherwise would, by settling next to inland lakes they couldn't otherwise get to.
    Can build a worker while researching fishing, to get an 'insta' cove on turn 25 to 34 (Depending on initial commerce).
    Capital is size one when you get fishing. (Maybe two).

    Workboat:
    Big thing, is the cost difference. A work boat costs 30 production, and a Worker costs 75. You do get to add growth to the worker, but have the major cost of not growing.
    City is size 3 or 4 on average when you get fishing, meaning you can work water tiles as well as production tiles while building a work boat. Immediate GNP boost is roughly equivalent.
    Further more, a single high production city, such as your capital, can very quickly build cheap 30 prod work boats, to follow after a newly produced settler.


    Coverage: At first blush it appears that you can always get more pirate coves from workers than workboats, because workers can work off of inland lakes. This isn't necessarily true.
    First of all, a city on a peninsula, can often harber (pun!) 2 or three boats, while not sacrificing its PRECIOUS land squares, which produce hammers. The total productive output of the city increases more when creating a port at sea than from a land square (most of the time).

    Consider:

    Plains has 1 food 1 production. Old pirate Ports would change this into a 3 food, 1 production, 5 commerce square, a gain of <b>2/0/5</b>. (or 1/1/5 if you converted a grassland)

    Coast produces 2 Food and 3 trade. New pirate Ports(.33) upgraded them to 4 food, 2 Prod, 9 commerce, a gain of <b>2/2/6</b>

    Note only is the final better in yeild, but the interum effects are also greater. That worker gets to be a pirate cove right away, but turns a grassland or plains (Heaven forbid one with a forest on it!) into a 2 food 3 commerce tile, just like all the coast you have.

    Whereas you immediately get a solid +2 commerce boost from the .33 pirate coves.

    lastly, I think it is important to note the difference in production again. Any fishing based economy has felt the pangs of productionless that a Lanun empire fields. With the .33 workboats, not only did you get a greater yeild from your pirate ports, but doubled the amount of production you got, which accrues quicker (Due to cheap work boats vs workers).
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
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    15,646
    Location:
    Kael's head
    I remember someone recommending Assassins be national units before. I actually don't see a problem with limiting their number to prevent the stacks of assassins we have sometimes seen, but a limit if 4 is too low. From Faeryl's diplomacy I think that you need to be able to have at least a twelve assassins.


    Would it be possible to make it so that the limit on national (and maybe world) units was scaled by map size? For a tiny map 2 or 3 is plenty, but for Huge 5,6, or even 7 would be better. I'd say that no limits set to 1 should be scaled though.



    Completely unrelated: Assuming you haven't case you haven't fixed it yet in 0.34, Drowns (and presumably Liches) made form units that have racial promotions don't become undead. I believe that this can easily be fixed by making the spell also give the undead promotion to the caster. It might be a good idea to add <bPermanentUnitCreate>PROMOTION_GOLEM to Summon Flesh Golems to stop the Svartalfar from grafting people into mere illusions.
     
  5. hiphopin

    hiphopin Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    "Look behind you"
    Cool changes so far. I have a few problems though.
    1.) The malakim BETTER get one trade route per desert as opposed to one gold, they NEED to have more flavour.
    2.) The dovielo are easily the most dull civilization in the game atm and need MUCH more flavour than the new proposal. (If not the upgrades should seriously be free and level dependant)
    3.) I am (sorry for sounding rude) sooooo utterly pissed off still at the fact that so many sphere 3 spells are just summons, most very similar to eachother, I ask one thing, either change the summons and make them each a little more unique (earth elemental im talking to you) or add another spell to sphere 3 along with the summon.

    Honestly though my dream spell system would be each sphere would have 2 versions of sphere 3, some would be a direct damage one and the other a summon, others with more unique effects. Anyways I would like to see each spell sphere have at the least one more spell for sphere 3. Its getting so repetative now and I went from "Oh my gosh magic is so awesome" to "Hmm earth elemental would be a good choice, oh but fire has 2 movement and collateral damage, I guess im going with fire." or "Hmmm I don't know what to choose for my mage, a path of water for the water ele or a path of air for air ele [In my head:"Does it really matter?"] Me: No not really, their both boring." Thats honestly what magic has become for me now, damaging magic has gotten so utterly dull I just cant take it anymore, yeah summons are cool but it would be better if there were more sorcery based spells for damage spheres, and more summon/unique effect (IE different from what has been done, like the new chaos 3 sphere which was really unique) spells for more peacetime spheres.

    One more quick thing summons should have no upkeep cost, its honestly rather dumb, do you REALLY heal or feed your summon? Do you give it equipment? Exactly.

    Anyways thanks for reading, I hope by the time FFH nears the end of patching the final "Ice" phase most everything will have more flavour, which would mean even more differences between civs, more spell differences, more religion differences.

    Oh yeah I almost forgot, a full blown cult of the dragon religion (With as much uniqueness as religions now) would be kickbutt.
     
  6. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    edit: Hmm, never mind. ;)
     
  7. xanaqui42

    xanaqui42 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I'm curious why people keep thinking that this is the case. The vast majority of summons (possibly all) in 0.33 have no military support. Can you name one that does?

    Note that xienwolf corrects this below - military support only affects costs for the Pacifist civic.

    P.S.: If you're adamant about specific changes, consider making a modmod :)
     
  8. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    Location! Location!
  9. smusebaer

    smusebaer Chieftain

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    Oct 12, 2006
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    One thing troubles me! The amburites can teach Hawks to summon Skeletons. So if it´s possible to move hawks directly to the hunters that would be a little bit gamebraking. At the moment ist is possible to rebase a hawk several times, so 10 Hawks with summon skeletons could pop up 10 skeletons anywhere a hunter is.
    Would it be possible to remove the possibility to teach spells to hawks ?
     
  10. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    Lessee...Water Elementals get to waterwalk. I've had fleets chasing an archmage spamming those guys before. Rather fun. They also do that split thing now. Not to bad there.
    Fire Elementals do....what? I think that things with enough fire damage can light trees on fire just by being on them. That's about it though.
    Wind Elementals can fly and spawn lighting guys. Nifty and not too shabby. I think they also get blitz, but don't quote me on that.
    Earth Elementals...never built one. Not sure why. Must just be anti-earth or somthing. :p
    Wraiths are big, scary things that are a nice, natural progression from specters. The XP boost is an odd gain, but much appreciated. Very much helps the necromatic image of relying only on your summoned army of doom...

    Um...Did I miss any?
    I can agree with you that they could use a bit more variation. I think the best thing you could do is give the elementals a spell to cast which does the direct damage, sacrificing the elemental in the process. I can certainly work with the image of a fire elemental bursting into a great maelstrom of fire that burns all things around it.
    Bugger, time to go make a new thread :p
     
  11. TheJopa

    TheJopa Šumar

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    Fire elementals get +1 strength if summoned in fires. They used to get bonus for attacking cities. They should be able to bombard IMO.

    Earth are good defenders, with extra defensive strength, but this should be polarized even more.
     
  12. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    OMG OMG OMG OMG *goes insane from sheer joy*
     
  13. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    I'm currently playing a game where the Hippus are royally overrunning me. If their lesser hoard units were all running around with a few extra stars, I'm not sure how I could survive. I know the AI's get little bonuses hither and thither, but this one is a tad direct for my tastes. Could it be set as an option?
     
  14. MiKa523

    MiKa523 Nerdish by Nature

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    It's an "option". Move down a level or adapt :p
     
  15. Demus

    Demus Chieftain

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    about the flexible difficulty option: please let the top X players be scaled by eighter number of civs or map size.
    For example, on a tiny map with 3 civs (yes, i sometimes play those to test a rush strategy, or for a short game), it would be a lot better to limit the increase/decrease to being the first/last player scorewise. On a huge, 28 player map though, top/bottom 5 would be more appropriate.
     
  16. rusty217

    rusty217 Veil Fanatic

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    Well it says third so that would scale to number of civs, with 3 civs it would be the top 1 or bottom 1 and with 28 it would be the top 9 or bottom 9...
     
  17. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    I don't like cheating AI's. Never have in any game. Piling on freebies is a stopgap tactic to make up for deficiencies in the AI's performance. There's still a good deal of game mechanics the AI doesn't understand yet. I understand that. That's why the "No AI bulding requirements" was put in. Even though it was practically a requirement for them to do anything other than build warriors and scouts late into the game, it was still an option.
    What I see free XP "fixing" is the early game. AI has some silly build orders right now. It over prioritizes settlers and workers, leaving it open to barbarians and player warrior rushes (especially of the 1 star + shock combo). Certain civs have tech orders that work great to counter these tactics. Certain civs don't. With a bit of work, the weaknesses could be addressed. I'm sure they will be. I just object to this seeming stopgap measure being made mandatory.
     
  18. Xuenay

    Xuenay Chieftain

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    You do know that changing the difficulty levels already only modifies how much the AI cheats, right?

    It sounds strange to me that also handing out extra XP as the difficulty level goes up would be objectionable, but not all the other bonuses that they already get. If you don't like the AI cheating, you can always play at Noble.
     
  19. kumquatelvis

    kumquatelvis Chieftain

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    That explains how you're supposed to get mercenaries now. I wonder if you can still hire them in allied cities if they have the guild? And the Heron throne sounds pretty awesome (especially for the Lanun). I wonder what tech it comes in at?
     
  20. xanaqui42

    xanaqui42 Chieftain

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    The AI cheats at every level, last I looked (even Settler). However, at a number of levels, it also gets penalties.

    While I obviously empathize with improving the AI, I suspect that best reason for handing out free XP is to have the scaling difficulty level options more obviously and more immediately meaningful.
     

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