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FfH2 Game Balance Thread

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Grey Fox, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. Gul'dan

    Gul'dan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    By the way: Which is the spawn rate for the Sheaim portals? It seemed quite low to me, because in a game with doubled AC I quickly launched the AC to 100 and then in 30 turns roughly 5 creatures came through my three portals. That is... not much. Ok, I only had prerequisites for tar demons, chaos marauders and mebius witches, but still.

    Also: Since the hippodrome and the blacksmith don't exist any more, which prerequisites do the minotaurs and manticores have? Mithril weapons and divine essence?

    Furthermore
    a) All units except the infantry line are normal for the sheaim, which makes the portals oddly expensive.
    b) The Sheaim have no immortals. Before you say "But they get high end units for free" consider: Immortals are immortal.
    c) The sheaim AC ritual (+5 AC) costs as much as 10 missionaries of the veil (+10 AC). This means that the sheaim do not have a reasonable unique way to increase the AC.
    d) Magic and/or fire resistance completely block the pyre zombie explosion, turning especially the calabim into a tremendous foe.

    Upshot: The sheaim are weak. Yes they are. No, you don't have the dream eaters. Another human player will win before you get them. The portal spawn rate should be increased.
     
  2. TheGreatSteve

    TheGreatSteve Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
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    145
    Do you really need 24 stacked-affinity wraiths instead of 16? I don't mind the change, means you have to work for the win a bit more rather than coasting to victory once you hit Strength of Will. Sheaim victories always seem kind of dull when my vulnerable archmages are able to sit miles away from the actual front thanks to summoner and extension.


    Regarding Industrious, I think buffing it is more about adding Wonders than improving the existing ones. If you grab a tech early and start building the associated wonder in your best production city, it probably doesn't matter whether you're Ind or not. Ind should be more about quantity than speed. Basically, the more :hammers: you spend on Wonders the more Industrious is worth because of the modifier.
     
  3. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
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    Location:
    Kael's head
    I would be fine with making the number of open boarders agreements the Eyes and Ears Network requires depend on the total number in the game.


    I'm wondering it it might be good to make this wonder Esus only, as it fits thematically and would give you a reason to actually convert to it.
     
  4. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
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    527
    Location:
    The Towers of Amur.
    Would it be possible to make it so that you actually loose the wonder (letting someone else re-build it) if you converted to something else than Esus?

    Otherwise, all you'd have to do was convert, build it, and then convert back. We need reasons for people to -stay- as Esus, not just found or research it, and then get all the benefits from it without actually having it as a state religion.
    Well, for one, I had no idea you could do that. I somewhat agree, since I'd never turn that down anyway, but I think it's a nice add anyway. It's also random, so you may get it, you may never get it - who knows? :p
    How about 1 free super-sage-specialist in the city, and free libraries on the continent? Pretty please?

    Free-building wonders are by far my favourite. :mischief:
     
  5. Methuselah

    Methuselah King

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
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    Easily doable.

    I like the idea of eyes and ears network being Esus-only.
     
  6. cabbagemeister

    cabbagemeister Please wait...

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
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    517
    I would like to see Govannon show up earlier in the tech tree. I find the "Govannon teaches the entire Amurite army lvl 1 spells" concept to be extremely interesting. It gives the Amurites a really cool flavor and makes them fight like no other Civ. And yet, Govannon doesn't come along until Arcane Lore, which, with the recent tech recosting, is reeeeaaallllly far away down the tech tree. So for a long portion of the game, the Amurites play essentially like every other civ, except their mages level faster/start with a lot of free xp. This is barely flavorful, and it makes the Amurites one of the weaker civs, because they don't have a strong mechanic until Govannon shows up. No other civ has to wait so long for their unique mechanic to be usable.

    Obviously Govannon the Archmage appearing when everyone else is getting mages is overpowered. So, what if instead of an Archmage hero, Govannon was a Mage or an Adept hero? Given that most people just sit Govannon at home and have him teach spells anyway, I don't think this would change the way he is used, but it would give the Amurites their mechanic faster and earlier. If it's really important, maybe it could be set up so that Govannon (Adept) upgrades to Govannon (Mage) and to Govannon (Archmage), but I wouldn't mind him staying as an adept the whole game, as long as he showed up earlier, like at Sorcery, or even at KotE.
     
  7. xilr

    xilr Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
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    101
    Okay, so the Sheaim are strong *after* strength of will. Should I list all the other races and when they get strong? Do we even need to go there?

    Sheaim are fun to play but they were by no means overpowered. If anything, they get a decent speed clean-up, but if your roaming around with that aforementioned pack of 24 affinity stacked wraiths, you have won already... Your just in the clean up phase.

    Sheaim really need a bit more oomph. Particularly after the summoner trait nerf. I'm beside myself that they'd even get nerfed.... And poor Os Gabella....... Industrious and (the late)Summoner.....
     
  8. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    I have to argue with that. Lots of civs have their unique mechanics late game, and since these mechanics are, usually, enough to win the game for them, they should be forced to do something clever to survive until then.
    I am an Amurite's fan, and I really think that getting Govanon earlier wouldn't be as good as it is now. My relief and satisfaction when I finally manage it to Arcane Lore is uncompareable to anything else ;). Then, usually, I can make up for my losses so far and turn the tide on a seamingly lost game! Sweet!!! :cool:
     
  9. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    Yeah, poor misguided girl, wanting to destroy the world, summoning all kinds of demons from the planar gates and spreading hell terrain, calling the Hells Spawn(Hyborem), and having those worthless Pyre Zombies that cannot do anything right... I almost weep thinking about her...:cry:

    :lol::lol::lol:
    Sorry, I couldn't resist. I agree that there was no need to nerf summoner, since the Sheaim lack lots of units the other civs have, and the nerf hurts. But calling that one poor was too much! :lol::lol::lol:
     
  10. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Germany
    With Os-Gabella an adept rush strategy works quite well as Tower of Necromancy and Catacombs Libralus will be finished very fast. With the 20% bonus for Skeletons this strategy even works better than before.
     
  11. TheGreatSteve

    TheGreatSteve Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
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    145
    The summoner change weakens their mid/late game, areas where they were good. And actually STRENGTHTENS their early game. Stronger skeletons, fewer death-stacked spectre/wraiths. Don't get me wrong, I'd like Summoner to get some sort of buff as well, but this isn't a bad change.

    Since 20% strength is kind of boring, how might this be?
    Have Summoner give some sort of hidden Summoner promo to arcane units. Make it the prerequisite for a set of promotions that add promos to the summons, like Spell Extension gives them Mobility. So Summoners can take the same promotions as anyone else, but can also choose to give their summons Shock, or March, or whatever. It's a bonus, but it still requires them to take that promotion instead of Combat/Mobility/Spellsphere, so it's not overpowered.
     
  12. indzasa

    indzasa Chieftain

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    Nov 1, 2008
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    19
    I have 2 ideas:

    1. Give archers an ability to shoot down birds like mech. inf. in vanilla can do with planes.
    2. Players that adopt Liberty should be given tolerant trait.
     
  13. Gelvan

    Gelvan Prince

    Joined:
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    Great Idea, and take it away from Elohim then, so that they can get back spiritual.
     
  14. Gul'dan

    Gul'dan Chieftain

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    Tolerant is the unique trait of the Elohim and the only thing that is interesting and unique about them. What you suppose is the same as saying: "Hey, how about everyone being able to build vampires with an appropriate stateform?" or "How about every AV-player being able to build planar gates."

    Making the network Esus-only might make this religion at least a little interesting. May be a good idea.

    I noticed that the Calabim (especially with Flauros) are greatly boosted by the tech cost changes. They now match (or even top) the superb Svartalfar. They get their vampires around turn 180, which means they have Brigit in turn 220 if she is on the map and not too far away. At that time other players get champions. And they can't even complain about being weak before, as the Moroi burning blood is quite a decent gimmick, when times get rough. Maybe the bloodsucking XP should be capped at 100. Note the this amounts to 9 advancements (10 with one additional XP). Note furthermore the vampire lords need 122 XP, so it should remain quite possible to push 4 vamps over this boundary. Note that freeing Brigit needs 197 XP, so the Brigit exploit would be controlled by this change. Maybe the Vampire Lords should be released of the cap or should be capped at 200 XP or so (because if you already have immortals, Brigit is not so much of a problem).

    The Svartalfar are very strong ever since. Just to name some of their advantages:
    a) Their warriors move 2 tiles in woods. This allows them to play it safe while getting their first XP from barbs and animals. This boost is huge.
    b) They have Agriculture as starting tech. (The benefit of this has been greatly deminished by the tech cost change.)
    c) They can build improvements into the forest, which allows them to ignore mining at first and go for calendar (agriculture), the markets, city states and then cottages. This streak makes sure they usually start with more research than all others and can keep up this advantage for quite some time.
    d) Their scout has a realistic chance to survive and gather some XP. Due to tech cost reworking, the scout unit tree has become highly favorable.
    e) Their world spell and their trait doubling pillage gains gives them an extra tech boost as they can sustain a high rate by pillaging.
    f) I need not speak of Alazkan, I suppose? One of the strongest heroes in game, in relation to when he comes.
    The result of this is that Svart on deity kill their first AI in turn 100-150 and the second one around turn 200. Through their early war they are the first to get three cities and thus in most games get the great library. They manage to do so without the use of any synergies with religions or state forms, thus they keep maximum flexibility. I see this as a problem and as a solution I would suggest a quite radical step: Units with speed 1 should never be able to move more than one tile without streets. It is just illogical, that elven units of speed 1 and 2 have the same speed as long as they move through forest.
     
  15. solanacea

    solanacea Chieftain

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    Ankara
    This isn't a big advantage in MP, though. Human player won't sit in his cities while you pillage the countyside. Excellent comments otherwise.
     
  16. Lade

    Lade Prince

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    Nov 25, 2008
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    Location:
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    The event that offers you paying 51 (or was it 54?) gold for stolen herring is completely biased. Who would want 1 supplies of herring instead of a Great engineer?

    Also, the "dedicate your monument" is almost always biased towards the +2 :food: which is a free specialest that far outweights any of the other option (unless you have health or unhappiness problems) perhaps the other options should be increased or it would only give 1 :food:

    This might be a bug, but I've also recieved that event twice in one city

    And while I'm on that subject, why am I allowed this event in a city where the monument was recieved from the "Aflluent Duke dies" event? Its already dedicated to him
     
  17. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    Y'know what'd rock? A Spiritual/Summoner leader for the Bannor. It just occurred to me. Law mana gives hosts of Einharjar, they'd start with guardsmen due to civ trait. A freaking angel summoner would just be so dang nifty for them.
     
  18. Jules.lt

    Jules.lt Prince

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    Shouldn't be too hard to modmod an additional minor leader (says me, without any idea how it's done)
     
  19. Gelvan

    Gelvan Prince

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    @Gul'dan
    You're right about the uniqueness, even though FF has a very special idea about Elohim which is even more unique.
    Decius on the other hand is far inferior than any other leader, I mean Organised/Raider ? What for?
    So I think the FF approach regarding Elohim and giving Decius the Tolerant Trait so that you can use this Warmonger Trait with more Civ's than the most peaceful one, is a great idea.
    Now before you ask why I don't play FF, at the moment it is not updated and I really think Decius should be improved and the Tolerant trait expanded. In the Main Game.

    But I have to admit, that there might be a reason (lorewise) why the peaceful Elohim are conquerors (hence the tolerant trait) and Decius has the most useless Traits in this game) - if so I'd appreciate clarification.
     
  20. Err0l

    Err0l Chieftain

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    Location:
    Germany
    Org/Rai is not useless. Period.

    Ethne has even more useless traits, and Arturus too. I greatly value Organized because is saves you a buttload of gold per turn and half production speed of Courthouses, not to mention superior military thanks to command posts. Free Commando promotion is pretty neat too. Commando Horsies are $"/)§es, as evidenced by Tasunke.

    The original idea behind Tolerant is that, if the Elohim conquer a city, they're tolerant towards the citizens and don't force their ethnicity on them (which should give them some culture benefits from foreign cities). The average Elohim is definately tolerant and compassionate, except against demons.
     

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