FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[Gelvan]

ok, it's not useless, but compared to Flauros (Org/Fin) or Varn (Spir/Ada), Decius really lacks behind. Not to forget that Ethne and Einon really SHOULD have Spiritual - they HAVE monks as an UU, right?

thanks for the original idea behind tolerant. it makes sense, that only a civ that is really tolerant can do this (let a conquered city build troops of their former civ). But then... it's just such a great trait. And it just doesn't fit that the only Civ that could use it, is the Elohim who normally (lorewise) never would conquer anyone, and therefore never use it.

 

[Gul'dan]

I see it like that: The Elohim would never lead war against any people, but this does not mean, that they don't hunt down criminals. So if they consider a leader a criminal who endangers the world they swore to guard, they try to get him, but to harm his people as little as possible, even respecting their different lore. I can see them as "liberating those poor folks from their mad dictator". (Hey, who said "USA" there?)

 

[Gelvan]

I have to admit... you are right
Even though it's strange they have lost their spiritual trait.
But that's hardly a balance issue, as I understand.

 

[Sephi]

It's a lot of fun, when you play Elohim and have teammembers. Then you can just send your warriors over to your grigori friends and they can teach them how to slay dragons (of course you still need the iron working tech).

 

[esvath]

I'm wondering it it might be good to make this wonder Esus only, as it fits thematically and would give you a reason to actually convert to it.

Positively, 10000000% agree! We could give Esus more flavor than what already there. And, oh, Spies for Esus please...

 

[Err0l]

Empy and Esus just aren't 100% finished, or so it seems...

In other words, nerf Pillar of Flames slightly and move it to Priors.

 

[Methuselah]

Empy and Esus just aren't 100% finished, or so it seems...

In other words, nerf Pillar of Flames slightly and move it to Priors.

And then Empyrean has?

 

[Err0l]

Dire need of more tweaks. However Chalid being virtually the only feat of his religion (and that favors war, which is out of lore) is simply not acceptable. Empy should have some way of increased maintenance (bureaucracy) but better science/culture instead. Oh, and increased WW.

You could achieve these things with an unique civic... perhaps add a religion-unique tech (enlightment) to move some stuff there...

 

[cabbagemeister]

I dunno, the way it works now is:
RoK (gold gold gold) and FoL (AFs, GoN, tiger cages) are strong economy-boosting religions
OO (Drowns, Stygians, Cultists) and Empy (Chalid, Blinding Light) are pure war religions with no econ boost
AV (Ritualists, StW) and Order (Bless, Social Order) are good for both econ and war
And of course Esus isn't great for much aside from sneak attacks.

You could definitely argue that some of the religions are contra-lore (like Empy=war), but right now the balance between them all is so nice that it's hard to argue for drastically reworking anything already there. But adding more goodies to Esus is most desirable IMO to make it a more viable option.

 

[Blackmantle]

Dire need of more tweaks. However Chalid being virtually the only feat of his religion (and that favors war, which is out of lore) is simply not acceptable. Empy should have some way of increased maintenance (bureaucracy) but better science/culture instead. Oh, and increased WW.

You could achieve these things with an unique civic... perhaps add a religion-unique tech (enlightment) to move some stuff there...

And you are aware that Temples of the Empyrean have been changed to give a bonus of +10% beakers a while ago instead of the old copy to boost of unit production like temples of the Order? Which might very well make it into the best temple of the 7 Religions. (special Temples excluded...)
Also High-Priests and Druids of the Empyrean are both very powerful and Rathas are nothing to scoff at as well if you go for Empyrean early. I agree that the mediation aspect is not so huge in the religion itself and the mechanics make this a very militaristic religion.
But the Overcouncil does cover that part nicely imo. Not all perks of each religion are only tied to those civs running said religion.

PS: VS the Svartalfar and against invisible Units Revalation really is a godsend. As situational as it is. So the revalation part is covered in a good way. Not least thanks to Deis Dei.

 

[Methuselah]

I think that you shouldn't be able to get a disciple of a religion from a lair unless that religion has already been founded. It is unfair on other players who have the techs for that religion to be beaten to it because someone got lucky (and plus, the amount of arguments I've seen it cause on MP are now driving me crazy.)

 

[Earthling]

Agree with the lairs part - led to a really funny happening in a game of mine, when, as the Illians, I founded OO of all things!

As far as empyrean goes, I've always thought of it this way: it's basically an option for you to get a religion when you're beaten to order, because then you can get your own mana/hero etc... The overcouncil unfortunately does very little in my opinion (other than get on your nerves about mana bans if the AI ever takes control) - I'd think it could work if it gave a diplomatic victory option (probably at a later tech, though, and something like 75+% of world population of votes, basically you'd have to have almost all good civs dominating the world. But it doesn't feel right when order and empyrean have to war at the end for a conquest/dom vic...)Esus doesn't serve the same role in regards to Ashen Veil though; so as a whole I kinda understand the sentiment that these two religions aren't fully fleshed out.

Lastly - I find raiders trait to be incredibly powerful on its own, so don't have any problems with Decius (and org isn't bad, nothing as pathetic as, say, defender). I know that for human mp play things may be a little different, but my experience is that Decius is always one of the strongest AI no matter what civ (Bannor, Calabim, and Malakim). And of course I think humans can utilize raiders quite well too - it's one thing that does sync up incredibly with esus.

 

[Lade]

I think Unyielding order should be changed to a law 3 spell, and the Prior should be given something more combat related

After all, less matidence is useless for the order, they have their UU, courthouses, and their shrine mana to cut down costs

Perhaps give Empy somthing more combat related and give Priors crown of Brilliance?

 

[Emptiness]

I just noticed that units earn a point of experience for capturing workers. I'm not sure if this happens in BtS, although I don't recall getting xp for that. Either way, I'd suggest that xp should not be awarded for capturing a worker or for destroying a non-combat unit (like supplies or a great person). There are lots of sources of experience in FfH2 but the others involve some degree of risk (not counting the xp that casters earn as time passes). It's not a major issue, but this free xp with no risk doesn't feel right to me.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I just noticed that units earn a point of experience for capturing workers. I'm not sure if this happens in BtS, although I don't recall getting xp for that. Either way, I'd suggest that xp should not be awarded for capturing a worker or for destroying a non-combat unit (like supplies or a great person). There are lots of sources of experience in FfH2 but the others involve some degree of risk (not counting the xp that casters earn as time passes). It's not a major issue, but this free xp with no risk doesn't feel right to me.

Did you have valor or a great commander attached? I don't recall gaining free experience from capturing workers otherwise.

 

[onedreamer]

Why can't barbarian civs explore dungeons ? I can understand they shouldn't explore lairs, but dungeons ? This has two considerable disadvantages, one obvious from the missing opportunities a dungeon can award, the second is that you can't improve the tile with the dungeon...

 

[Senethro]

Raiders trait is a very powerful trait in MP, so Decius is by no means underpowered. His Org has good synergy with Order religion in Bannor and Governer's mansions in Calabim. I'd rank him above Alexis and Capria, but below Varn and Flauros.

Raiders in MP means you stick an Adept in the stack to Haste you. Then you run past an enemies frontlines and go on a mass razing spree. Humans very typically defend their rear cities with leftover warriors. Only Blinding Light can stop you.

 

[CruX]

From the bug thread,

An event offers a Great Bard in exchange for a period of Unrest, but by using the Bards Great Works ability the unrest stops immediately (Zechnophobe - Post 1160)

I managed to replicate this with just an acolyte, using their ability, Create Great Work (+20 culture). Subsequently, I used the Great Artist to give myself a Golden Age.

In fact, the ability can even be used to suppress unrest from newly captured city as well. No viva la resistance in any city at all. For the cost of an acolyte, it is definitely a little too strong.

 

[Emptiness]

I just noticed that units earn a point of experience for capturing workers. I'm not sure if this happens in BtS, although I don't recall getting xp for that. Either way, I'd suggest that xp should not be awarded for capturing a worker or for destroying a non-combat unit (like supplies or a great person). There are lots of sources of experience in FfH2 but the others involve some degree of risk (not counting the xp that casters earn as time passes). It's not a major issue, but this free xp with no risk doesn't feel right to me.

Did you have valor or a great commander attached? I don't recall gaining free experience from capturing workers otherwise.

Ahh, of course it was the Valor... [facepalm]

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Emptiness]

The "orphanage fire" event results in the loss of a point of population in the city in which it occurs, as well as other effects depending on what response you choose.

It seems unrealistic that this event can occur to the Infernals. I wouldn't think they would have orphanages. Also, because of the way in which Infernal population growth happens, the loss of population is (arguably) a more severe penalty for them than for other civs.

Personally, I'd prefer that this event never occur for the Infernals. If that's not possible, then I feel that a response option should be added - the equivalent of the "torture" event's "So?" response. It should only be available to the Infernals and should result in no population loss.