FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[Gul'dan]

Or simply lower the damage of ring of fire.

Still the main prob with AV is the grimoire, allowing them to get the demons far too early. I know they come "only" about the same time as Chalid but consider that Mardero will just pick two early promotions (magic resistance and fire resistance) to become quite unimpressed by pillar of flames. (And as chalid is a hero, the AV player is even told when it is necessary to "waste" these two promotions.) The deal is: Magic can be countered easily by promotions, raw damage can't. This makes early Mardero such an unbearable slayer.

At the very least there should be the option to ban the grimoire on game creation, just to keep the MP games balanced.

Still another issue is the fact, that diseased corpses can be healed. This could also use a fix, as it gives AV much to early champions which cost only 3/4 of normal champions. And leaving some 10% of your corpses diseased to weaken enemies before the real attack wave changes the odds even more to their favour.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Or simply lower the damage of ring of fire.

This is a nerf. Please do not nerf magic anymore. I prefer the original idea.

Still the main prob with AV is the grimoire, allowing them to get the demons far too early. I know they come "only" about the same time as Chalid but consider that Mardero will just pick two early promotions (magic resistance and fire resistance) to become quite unimpressed by pillar of flames. (And as chalid is a hero, the AV player is even told when it is necessary to "waste" these two promotions.) The deal is: Magic can be countered easily by promotions, raw damage can't. This makes early Mardero such an unbearable slayer.

At the very least there should be the option to ban the grimoire on game creation, just to keep the MP games balanced.

The MP issues are always interesting. However, I guess just agreeing that you will not build/use the grimoire should be enough if you all feel the same about it.

Still another issue is the fact, that diseased corpses can be healed. This could also use a fix, as it gives AV much to early champions which cost only 3/4 of normal champions. And leaving some 10% of your corpses diseased to weaken enemies before the real attack wave changes the odds even more to their favour.

This should be easy to fix. Just the "cure disease" spell should only target living units, not units with the promotion as currently.
Another solution would be to make diseased corpses(the only undead having this promotion I can think of) immune to the cure disease spell.
It should be very easy to do, and it suprizes me that Kael hasn't done this yet. It is obviously an exploit!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I say you shouldn't nerf or move Ring of Flames,but make everything else stronger.



Making Diseased Corpses immune would require moving an XML only spell to python. Making all non-living units immune requires only adding <bImmuneNotAlive>1</bImmuneNotAlive>

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I say you shouldn't nerf or move Ring of Flames,but make everything else stronger.

Yes, please!!

Making all non-living units immune requires only adding <bImmuneNotAlive>1</bImmuneNotAlive>

Yes, this is my prefered solution, also...So, simple, so effective, and so lore fitting, since not-alive units are immune to disease, anyway.

 

[Imuratep]

Looking at the balance-issues in FFH right now, I agree with the general problemes concerning the stack-damage spells. But in my opionion AV's "Ring of Flames" takes the prize.

If we compare the different stack-damage spells (of the ones I have seen in use) on the basis of, what is needed, it is:

Snowfall: You need the ice mana + an arch mage or hero with channeling 3
Pillar of Fire: Hero
Crown of brilliance: High Priests
Crush: Druids
Ring of Flames: A 1st level priest

Very good point. But the question is: What will you give them instead? Summon a permanent Imp would be perhaps interesting as they cost no upkeep and can be upgraded to mages.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe the capacity of naval units should be increased by one slot, to help the AI and to make the naval invasions less of a hassle.

 

[Emptiness]

When Minister Koun splits off from a Lanun civ he does not get the Seafaring tech. Koun is already at a serious disadvantage, but being the Lanun without Seafaring is truly pathetic. I suggest that Minister Koun should receive the starting tech of the civ from which he splits.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

What about the elfs? Does he get the Dexterous or the dark elves one trait?

 

[Emptiness]

He doesn't get traits, those are usually tied to the leader rather than the civ. He is philosophical/agnostic, I think.

 

[Tasunke]

are yee that are hating on Ring of Flames then forgetting tsunami?

anyways, my proposed fix to mass stacks = win would be to create armies. But unlike civ3 armies, these act like Fleets from GalCivII ... I would propose a base at 3 armies per civ, with +1 at warfare and +1 at military strategy.

Perhaps have an army be either 4 or 5 units of non-heroes at max of tier 3, so each round of combat all units strike ... as opposed to just the one unit striking. And perhaps the enemy's strike has a random chance of hitting each unit, or a weighted odds of hitting frontlines units like melee.

Perhaps if there is a caster in the army, and they are attacked while spell has not been cast, the caster automatically casts "most useful spell" by AI standards. (to avoid the awesomeness of simultaneous turns raider strikes)

Of course ... it depends on what stack sizes we are talking about. Either way I like the Idea of the armies duking it out, like on a tactical map, so its more "fun" to lose or win, because you actually get to use your armies. Otherwise, only those units that stay alive for half the game killing many many units get any recognition, and the mass unit deaths are barely visible asides from a strategic abstraction.

As to religion exploits it really should take longer to switch out of a religion. At least as long as it takes to switch into a crusade.

 

[Gul'dan]

I wish to adress a point which is not only a problem of balancing between different factions but also narrowing down the decisions one faction can effectively make:
The Horse Bowmen come way too early because the stirrup tech is too cheap. They have
*Base Strength 6
*up to 85% (Hippus 95%) evasion
*Speed 3 (Hippus and Kuriotates: 4)
*the possibility to have marching, as warriors can be promoted to them.

At least the last point ist obviously simple (and logical) to fix. Still I recommend tripling(!) the cost for the tech, as it is a "dead end" tech anyway with no impact on the rest of the tree. Don't only do the math but play it and you will see, that the horse bowmen are at least as good as rangers and champions. I would say the evasion makes them better by a long shot, as the evasion allows them to take otherwise risky battles, so they gain XP insanely fast. Their cheapness forces one to take the Horse Bowmen with about any faction (except Calabim, the vamps still own) and takes quite some flavour from the game.

Please don't cite the fact that AI with Horse Bowmen is not superior to the ones choosing champions as evidence that I am wrong. The AI is simply clouless and exploits neither the evasion nor the mobility of these units to their advantage.

 

[Senethro]

Do you get a lot of March Warriors?

Why does being a dead end tech mean it should be more expensive?

Someone remind me of their hammer cost and whether they still get +40% vs Archery units - because it looks to me as if they're a weak unit attached to a tech far off the economy/metal line that are only useful to Raider leaders.

 

[Tasunke]

Firstly ... the max evasion for ANY unit is 85%- sadly enough.

And the main usefulness, aye, relies in being combined by the raider trait, making large empires turn into big, juicy, steakburgers ... with the dread exception of their main force.

Also ... perhaps this strat is best used on Marathon ... as with ANY other speed I find its a better investment to go combat first rather than withdrawal first. (except for once I already HAVE an army)

 

[Gul'dan]

*2-3 Warriors with marching are possible by the time you get stirrup.
*Riders have lower dodge, they can get eva 3 for horselord or defensive factions, then be upgrade to bowriders, et voilá: 95% evasion.
*Recall the riding (for trade) and archery (for lumbermills) are both economy-techs you may want anyway, so you only pay 1400 res (normal speed, large map, deity) for the stirrup.
*Dead end means, it has no side effects to increase cost, just it balances this single imba unit.
*Of course they are even more important for raider leaders but try it with cardy (in his case you don't need a building _and_ get defense boni which normal horse bowmen don't get), or with a defensive leader: They still rock.
*You get eva first, allowing you to attack at a 30% chance to win and still survive with a chance of ~90%: Fast XP. The eva pays off quickly.
Of course all these remarks are based on the assumption that you start building riders when you get the respective tech so there are still plenty of barbs around at that time.

 

[Tasunke]

I already said the third promo is useless. Basically there is a hard cap at 85% ... try it for yourself.

 

[Gul'dan]

Are you sure about this one? I have a screen shot of chances <0,1% win 95% evasion in 0.41a (worldbuilder involved, as it is just to make the point). If you tell me how, I'll upload it. (Also I forgot to mention their free first strike so far I think.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

It would be nice if Arcane trait also granted a Spell Extension 1 promotion to the adept unitclass. Just throwing an idea...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That could be a good idea, as currently Spiritual does pretty much everything Arcane does and more (since if you upgrade all your mages from Savants instead of Adepts then they get Potency for free).

 

[Tasunke]

heheh ... some ppl think horsearchers aren't that good, other think they are.

I truly think it has to do with what strategy the person is using at the time. And ... as most strategies on a truly competitive level ... its ALL about the timing

 

[MagisterCultuum]

One thing that annoys me about horse archers if how often the AI upgrades them from archers with City Garrison promotions. The unit doesn't get defensive bonuses, so I'm pretty sure that promotion is worthless to them and a waste of xp when that path is followed. It would be nice if the promotion was replaced with a free promotion pick upon upgrading.