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Finding the Limits of Possibility: A Deity Plus Four Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, May 16, 2009.

  1. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Number of cities in order of suspected power level:
    Carthaginians: 16 (at last map swap)
    Spanish: 17
    Vikings: 25
    Indians: 9
    Romans: 10
    Japanese: 6
    Americans: 1 (based on map)

    Attached is the minimap, the foreign affairs window, and the top five cities window.

    Note that most viking cities are very small, while foreign cities tend to be rather large.
     

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  2. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    I'm following the events of this game as well, so keep up the good work ;) audience is still there, and maybe just maybe one day I'll join one of these succession games.
    Right now I'd probably bring more harm than good...
     
  3. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Any news of our glorious empire?
     
  4. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I have not played much yet. The last two weeks I had 2 grandmothers and 1 grandfather in the hospital and they are not doing well. So we were not home much the last two weeks. I try to finish today but don't know I have enough time.
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    Finally finished. I keep it short. Perhaps others want to make screenshots.

    Here is my log:
    turn 1 920 AD Spanish capture Carth city Alalia (Physics), liberate Vigo (Republic)
    Carth's liberate Vigo
    We attacked Osaka / hut->musketeer / hut->50g / hut->Dragoon / Nonnebakken
    turn 2 940 AD Indians develop Industrialization and start Woman's suffrage
    capture Osaka (303g + King Richard) / hut->50g / Ribblehead + Thwaite
    turn 3 960 AD Japanese get Invention from Americans
    Indians get Economics from Romans
    Romans get Industrialization from Indians
    We have more then 5 M citizens / bribed Byzantium for 57g (13g + Economics)
    turn 4 980 AD Spanish changed to Republic
    Askrigg
    turn 5 1000 AD Spanish and Carths sign peace treaty
    get map from Carth's
    turn 6 1020 AD Spanish develop Feudalism
    Carth's start Darwin's Voyage
    Romans start Womans Suffrage and are Republic
    Gems to Kolhapur (198g) / capture Nara (212g)
    turn 7 1040 AD Cease Fire with Romans / they land again near Hispalis
    We discover Chemistry->Theology / capture New York
    silver to Kyoto (28g) + beads to Caralis (232g) + spice to Kyoto (78g)
    turn 8 1060 AD Carth's build Darwin's Voyage (Metallurgy) and start Eiffel Tower
    Indians build Womans Suffrage and start Adam Smith
    Romans start Adam Smith
    We have more then 6 M citizens / hut-> Nomads / trade Chemistry with Indian for Industrialization
    turn 9 1080 AD Indians build Adam Smith / develop Corporation
    Romans develop Democracy and Start Statue of Liberty
    beads to Panormus (158g) / hut->nomads
    turn 10 1100 AD Spanish develop Steam Engine
    Carth's build Eiffel Tower
    Indians got Metallurgy from Carth's
    capture Satsuma (315g) / wine to Jaipur (170g)

    Notes: Not yet made city at 36,66 but settler is building road near the cityspot. I think there are enough dragoons to capture the last city of the Japanese on their main island (the other city is on Roman main island).

    The great wall is not working any more. I build up an army at Viroconium. Only a few more dragoons needed and we could try to attack the Romans.

    Charlie is next I believe.
     

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  6. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I haven't looked at the game in great detail, but something is very apparent:

    We should stop building dragoons, and attack the Romans immediately. Dragoons are going to become worthless once conscription and tactics are discovered, and our only means of salvaging them will be to capture leonardo's workshop before someone gets automobile (and that will require breaking the Indian alliance). In the meantime, the Romans are already researching conscription, meaning that their cities will soon be swarming with riflemen, and that will make the cities too strong to take with dragoons. At that point, all we could really do would be to send the dragoons to spain, and grab a few cities there.
     
  7. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    I've completely lost track of where we are and what we're doing. I'll have to re-read the last few pages before I start. I'll try to play at the weekend.
     
  8. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Great set of turns on the Japanese island, I'm happy to see the military operations I started againast Japan continuing to go well.

    I agree with Prof. Garfield that we should try to attack the Romans but it must happen immediately. They are researching conscription and will soon have it. An important thing to note is that the GW has expired, the Romans have it and haven't 'replaced' it with city walls in many cities yet. So we could start by attacking Pompeii, Cumae, Veii or Antium. Important: We must attack these cities using veteraran dragoons, I notice that we have some non-veteran dragoons (and we are building some dragoons in cities that don't have barracks, a bad idea in my opinion unless we have ST).

    And we should try to deliver some caravans to the Carthaginians (far away) or Delhi (has the colossus), getting theology and Bach will be really nice.
     
  9. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    Is it 8 or 10 turns we're now playing? I might stop just stop at 8 anyway, quite a lot has happened in the first 5 turns ...
     
  10. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I think you still have the "right" to play 10 turns if you want to, but you can decide to play only 8 if things have gotten too busy.
     
  11. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    I played 8 and did more than I thought I would.

    1100 adjust some production switch to vans, allow2 cities to celebrate

    1120 senate allows continuing action against japanese, kagoshima captured 184g, trelleborg founded, antium captured (defended by just transport) 99g + tech I chose demo from chiv,demo,metal,sanit

    1140 roman govt overthrown, envoy approached send away, jorvik gold leptis parva 336g,hladir cloth delhi 163g, Vei captured 136g + metallurgy, pompeii captured (with ex japan troops) 78g + sanit, rush few settlers & vans

    1160 Spanish sneak attack Lunde, Theo->explosives, nagoya 184 japs destroyed, risby founded, neaopolis captured 115+chivalry , jarrow gems bangalore 94g, hispalis coal hade 114g, rush 5 vans

    1180 indians learn tog, gems trondheim gades 440g, cumae captured 172g, hladir spice washington 83g

    1200 pisa captured 218g, lindholm copper carthage 224g, Jelling founded, spend 500g

    1220 romans nearly finished sol, explosives->Electricity, romans abandon sol, ravenna captured, senate signs cease fire with romans. 7 vans to Bachs, tax 2-2-6

    1240 99 barbs near nonnenakkin, last bachs van

    1260 indians communism, trond builds JS bachs, vorbasse founded, frykat founded


    Indians have tog and comm we should be able to swap theology. My plan was to send remaining settlers up north to build more cities. Democracy will be tricky to implement because of the amount of troops and we have at least 2 cities in permanent disorder, though they should be ok when size 2.

    I was sending troops over to spain to take advantage of the war they started, continent 42 not the main part. I don't know how we're going to capture washington & rome? theres 2 other roman cities, don't know where one is. A gold van is near spain, we should be able to deliver it without attack.

    Beating down the romans was a lot easier than I thought, the cities were badly defended, usually just one musket, some of them two. It's probably cheaper to give up Nonnebaken to the barbs. The central stack is awkward to get too.

    I don't know what's next, I wouldn't fancy taking on the indians or carthags yet.
     

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  12. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    Great turns Charlie. I am glad we could win this easy from the Romans. I think we should continue attacking the Spanish. They are not quick with their research so perhaps their defence is also weak.

    I guess we better don't attack Washington and Rome right now. They are very weak right now so we can control them and capture after howitzers are available or bombers. It's better to focus on the other civs if we want to win this game. I don't know how far the Carth's are with their techs but we should keep an eye on them (and the Indians of course).

    The two cities can get out of disorder with 1 elvis in Trelleborg and the other city just changing the worker to an ocean tile. If the number of troups will cause enough trouble to create a difficult change to demo I don't know. As long as they are in a city I guess it should be ok (or am I wrong?).

    It looks like we're back in the race to win this one but we have to work hard to get it done.

    Pr. Garfield is next I believe....
     
  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I have the game, though I don't know how long it will take for me to play it.

    I'm pretty sure the Americans don't have gunpowder, so taking Washington shouldn't be a problem. Dragoons or an Ironclad will do the job. I do lean towards the Idea of leaving Rome in the hands of the Romans for a little while, at least until we can get some artillery, or spies to sabotage the walls.

    I'm considering abandoning Nonnebakken to the barbarians, becaue we don't have much cash, the city is not very valuable, and we have no easy way to get to the barbarian stack. Any thoughts?
     
  14. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    If Nonbakken is not easy to defend (without buying units) we better leave it to the barbs. We can always bribe it back at some point.
     
  15. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    How is the game going Pr. Garfield? Have you any idea when you will finish your turns?
     
  16. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Sorry. I've been very busy the past few weeks. I've had a term paper and several assignments to write, and also a rather large number of assignments to grade as well. Now I'm into exams, so there is studying to do... If someone can play in the next 10 days or so, they should post and then do so. Otherwise, I should be able to turn the game around in a couple weeks.
     
  17. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    I play following Prof. Garfield. I prefer waiting until he finishes - a 2 week delay isn't the end of the world :).
     
  18. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I'm ok with waiting a bit also. We have time enough to play this one and don't need to finish before a certain date..
     
  19. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Sorry this took so long.

    First Thoughts:

    Next OEDO years are 1340 and 1420; I think democracy is feasible, but revolution timing might be important for other goals.

    Nonnebakken is under threat from a horde of barbarians, and the central stack is not easily accessible. The real problem is that there is a hill next to the city, meaning that Musketeers can heavily damage units attacking them from the city; this will make defending the city costly, either through bribes or through rushing enough cannons to rotate them; I don’t really think the city or island are worth it.

    We are, for practical purposes, on the verge of bankruptcy; we have little gold, slow research, and only 1 caravan; the wars have drained our economy. We need to shift our economy away from military production enough to get some demanded caravans active and delivered quickly. This leaves the question of what to do with our existing military, at least the part that is not tied up in defending against threats. We can disband them into caravans, keep them around as a standing army waiting for an opportunity, or send them off to do as much fighting as they can for minimal extra costs.

    Leaving the units as a standing army is in my opinion a bad idea, because we don’t have Leonardo’s workshop to upgrade them, and if we are unable to take it, we will have to disband them anyway, having paid a lot of support in the meantime. Keeping the units without using them will only work if we get Leo’s in the “age of cavalry.”
    I don’t much like the idea of disbanding our dragoons, especially since I think we still have a window of opportunity to get more territory for minimal additional cost. The question is where? Spain is weakest I think, and spread out over several island, but I don’t think there is much to gain from attacking them besides a few mediocre cities that will have no distant foreign city to send caravans to. I don’t think we can make an effective assault on the Carthaginians; even if we made some initial gains, we would have to rush buy defences.

    India, however, is interesting. Leonardo’s Workshop, Sun Tzu’s and Adam Smith’s are in un-walled and relatively defensible cities; they also have a couple of good techs. The problem, aside from the fact that we are allies, is that being on unfriendly terms with them will create trade problems, through attacks on shipping and making it more difficult. Re-routing our shipping overland between Antium and Neapolis, and then south of India might reduce some dangers, but then access to Delhi would still be a little difficult. On the plus side, reorganizing our ship chain now will save the trouble of doing it when we actually have things to ship.

    (0) 1260: Rush 2 diplomats to investigate Indian cities of Jaipur and Karachi; might give me an indication of how to proceed. Decide not to assault Lugdunum because of the proximity of Hyderabad. Sell off captured colosseums, because they do little at this level, and we need cash. Gold now at 772. Negotiate cease-fire with Spanish, to prevent ironclad from destroying a dragoon. Get gift of 25g from Indians.

    (1) 1280: Odense diplomat, Hispalis hides, Neapolis diplomat. Rush several caravans. Hut near Trelleborg gives barbarians.

    (2) 1300: Barbs take Trelleborg (no ransom demand), plunder 1 gold. Ribblehead coal, Jarrow Dye, Westness Coal, Nara Gold, Osaka Silver. Lunde grows, disorder. Investigate Jaipur: Defended with 3 musketeers, no costal fortress. Investigate Karachi: 2 musketeers, 1 dragoon, 1 cannon 1 transport. Decide to betray Indians when everything is in place. Odense Gold to Toledo (d) for 312g. Get 25g from Indians, attitude down to Cordial (also refused to declare war or give explosives; I was hoping they would cancel the alliance themselves.

    (3) 1320: Carthaginians: Tell us they have electricity. Barb muskets destroy musketeers at Nonnebakken. Aldeigjuborg hides, Viborg Spice. Order in Lunde. Revolution. Decide to cancel Indian alliance directly instead of risking them giving a gift and not cancelling the alliance. Reputation down to dishonourable. Sneak attack Karachi, reputation Despicable. Take Karachi, with Leonardo’s Workshop, 119g, Take The Corporation. Partisans dispurse, refuse to talk to Indians. Attack Jaipur, Capture it, get Sun Tzu, Adam Smith’s, 128g, Communism. More Partisans. Indians: Demand 1000g (out of 1185). Refuse, war continues. Dragoon dies attacking partisan. Rush Walls in Karachi from Scratch. Rescue and Rehome Nonnebakken dragoon. Demand tribute from the Americans, get 50g. Build Kvivik. Carthaginians (uncooperative): demand 950g, refuse, they don’t declare war, but refuse to trade techs. Rush Walls in Neapolis in case of Indian counter attacks.

    (4) 1340: Spanish develop Leadership. Indians develop Electricity, begin Isaac Newton’s College, and switch to Communism. Barbs take Nonnebakken, 2gold. Romans develop Conscription. Mass disorder. Karachi, Neapolis City Walls. Democracy Established, Luxuries to 50%, science 10%. Plan to acquire electricity and Conscription from other civs before increasing science. Kill partisan near Karachi (now unfortified).

    (5) 1360: Order restored everywhere. Rush Aqueduct in Jorvik. Kaupang engineers; rehome both engineers supported by the city. Send musketeer from Veii to annoy Romans by staying in their city radius.

    (6) 1380: Indians nearly complete Isaac Newton’s. Jorvik Aqueduct. Cumae diplomat. Move Anitum musketeer to Veii. Rush Karachi Musketeers. Kill last partisan near Jaipur. Ironclad from Pisa kills Indian Frigate and Ironclad. Rush ironclad in Veii. Rush last Kaupang engineer.

    (7) 1400: Bangalore builds Isaac Newton’s College, Indians switch another to United Nations. Indians change to Republic. Indians kill severely damaged ironclad. Romans: demand we leave the vicinity of Rome. Birka Silver. Hispalis hides. Uppsala oil. Disband Kaupang. Send dragoons from Karachi to Bombay, am 1 unit short for taking the city. Build Naples.

    (8) 1420: Carthaginians begin UN. Indians do not kill stack of 6 dragoons. The Udal Oil. Kill musketeer that moved into Bombay, take city, Michelangelo’s Chapel, 116g, Electricity. Rush city Walls from scratch.

    Notes:

    There is a gold freight from Nara beside Antium; this can go to Lahore. All other freight have been destined to Neapolis. I haven’t established a shipchain leaving Neapolis because I was afraid of the Indian Navy.

    At 10% science, I don’t think you will discover the next tech next turn. I would recommend steel so that we can employ cruisers against the Indian Navy (and make it safe enough to start a shipchain). I would then recommend trying to get conscription from the Romans, and researching tactics.

    I decided to bite the bullet and attack the Indians. The result is that we have Leo’s and Sun Tzu, and, despite what I wrote in my First Thoughts, I think more military action might be called for, so we can press this advantage. We are in a position to get Tactics (with the added bonus of easy vet status from Sun Tzu) before conscription is widely known, but we should remember to devote enough resources to caravans so that we don’t end up in the position we were at the start of my turns (without being able to sell off the colosseums I wouldn’t have been able to accomplish as much as I have). Most Carthaginian cities are lacking in walls, but if we start to attack them that will probably change.

    I don’t think there is much else to say.

    Merry Christmas
     

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  20. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I still have to look at the save, but reading your story we made a huge leap getting those wonders. TheViking is next I believe.....

    Merry Christmas..
     

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