Firaxis: Patch coming next week

[Venger]

You folks should patent this Magic Excuse Making Machine of yours - every program has bugs (per some, this is outright nonsense, but sure, buy into it if you like), therefore there should be NO level of expectation visa vie performance - if it works, great, if not, it's software, it's buggy, what did you expect?

This "every program has bugs" is the most cravenly idiotic bit of pablum that has been offered regarding the stability and performance of this game. The first patch the remedies the majority of the problems people are having will be the FIRST Civ executable that should have been released.

Venger

 

[rtilley]

... if it works, great, if not, it's software, it's buggy, what did you expect?Venger

Well, my expectations were high for several reasons:

1. It's Civ... it's a legend in it own time.
2. Sid Mierer's name is all over the box. He's a legend who goes back to the C64.
3. The pre-game hype was huge.

Those are the reasons I bought the game. I figured that Sid would require, or demand, a great release that worked well out of the box.

Six of my friends bought the game. They all have new computers with loads of ram, fast cpus and big video cards. It worked on 2 of their systems. And, when it worked, it crashed regularly causing hard shutdowns and random reboots.

That's the problem. Firaxis had my expectations sky-high, and then they release a bug-ridden program that works on about half the computers in the world... and when it does work, it crashes the computer... no more needs to be said.

 

[Kwyjibo]

You folks should patent this Magic Excuse Making Machine of yours - every program has bugs (per some, this is outright nonsense, but sure, buy into it if you like), therefore there should be NO level of expectation visa vie performance - if it works, great, if not, it's software, it's buggy, what did you expect?

This "every program has bugs" is the most cravenly idiotic bit of pablum that has been offered regarding the stability and performance of this game. The first patch the remedies the majority of the problems people are having will be the FIRST Civ executable that should have been released.

Venger

For starter if you are going to use fancy language, please do it properly, I mean, what the hell is 'visa vie' supposed to mean (or did you by any chance try to use thew French phrase 'Vis-à-vis'?).

Secondly if you expect a program to run error-free in every conceivable hardware/software environment, the let me guess where you live...is it South-Utopia?

Earlier in this thread someone coined the term 'crappy system' and recieved a lot of flack for that. The way I see it you can perfectly meet the recommended system specification (or the most powerfull hardware on earth for that matter) in terms of hardware and still have a crappy system. If you run your state-of-the-art 3D powerhouse pc using a badly configured (some call it 'tweaked') virus and ad-ware infested windows environment, with outdated (or improperly removed) drivers, then I call that a 'crappy system'.

I have never had a game not run on my computer (I had some common bugs though), yet I use hardware considered by many to be of high risk in terms of compatability (ATI, AMD etc). I have been using PCs professionally for years, and I have never had an OS crap out on me (despite owning dozens of PC's, usually several at the same time), and I think at least part of that 'luck' is down to the fact that I do the necessery maintenance and updates/upgrades.

Despite all that, no product (be it computers, or anything else) is flawless on initial release. You cannot expect a piece of software that will be installed on millions of PC's (I think not unrealistic for a Civ game) to work without any problems on all these machines (a large number of those having problems even before Civ is installed).

 

[jened]

yeah but stuff like no trading in hotseat is not system dependent. that is what betas are for. tracking down memory leaks is something else reserved for betas. i agree you can't test every configuration, but notwithstanding those issues, how come such big stuff leaked through.

 

[Venger]

You know, I knew it was wrong when I typed it, but was rather lazy in looking it up...

Anyways, let's address this...

Secondly if you expect a program to run error-free in every conceivable hardware/software environment, the let me guess where you live...is it South-Utopia?

Back to the "what do you expect" argument - I expect it to WORK in the hardware/software environment PRESCRIBED ON THE BOX. If I meet the requirements - which are OS, RAM, Video, Sound, and space requirements - I have a REASONABLY expection that it will work. This "error-free" is a red herring of the first order, as I recall not having read anywhere someone complaining that the product didn't emerge flawless.

Earlier in this thread someone coined the term 'crappy system' and recieved a lot of flack for that. The way I see it you can perfectly meet the recommended system specification (or the most powerfull hardware on earth for that matter) in terms of hardware and still have a crappy system.

Since the only system you can see is YOUR system, perhaps you can save grand generalizations for another time? I can full well assure you that in many/most of these cases, the culprit isn't spyware, or a buggy driver, or a failure to defrag (gimme a break) - no, sir, the culprit is software that is clearly in PRE-release quality format.

We are all thrilled beyond words the game works for you - but we bought the game to work on OUR computer, not yours. The neccessary maintenance and updates have NOTHING TO DO with the wide ranging failures people are having with this game.

Despite all that, no product (be it computers, or anything else) is flawless on initial release.

The only people creating this zero-flaw paradigm are those acting as if individuals with problems are the ones at fault for the failure of this software to run. Yes, I TOO run a multitude of games and have never had a game not run - in fact, I have loaded another new game, Star Wars BF2, and guess what? It RUNS despite all the obvious flaws my computer MUST have because it's a "crappy system" that clearly hasn't had the "necessery (and you are correcting spelling? PLEASE!) maintenance and updates/upgrades" in order to run Civ4.

You cannot expect a piece of software that will be installed on millions of PC's (I think not unrealistic for a Civ game)

I love the Civ games, always have, but there is NO WAY there is anywhere NEAR 1 million installs of Civ4. No. Where. Near.

to work without any problems on all these machines (a large number of those having problems even before Civ is installed).

Now you are handing out precognitive diagnoses on these machines? How did you arrive at such a conclusion that a "large number" were having problems before Civ was installed? Dude, before Civ was installed, I hadn't SEEN my computers BIOS screen in months. In fact, my event viewer could be admissable as court evidence as to when I installed Civ - prior to 10/26, my last Event Log 6009 entry was 9/10 - that's SIX FRIGGIN WEEKS, pretty good for a obviously crappy computer with poor maintenance. Of course, SINCE 10/26, I have had... TWENTY, all Civ4 related, more than half crash to BIOS, the remaining reboots to try driver revisions.

Of course, those preceding weeks were filled with BFME, GalCiv, SP:WAW, R:TW, Moo3... all running despite my obviously flawed environment.

Venger

 

[player1 fanatic]

I just hope that hotseat fix is done in next patch.

That one is MP gamebreaker for me (half of my games are hotseats).

 

[varradami]

Can you think of another industry where it's acceptable to charge customers full price for a product that only works after several "patches" have been issued, if then? If Civ IV were a car, it would have been recalled by now.
Actually, scratch that, if Civ IV were a car, it never would have made it into production.

While I have no interest in muddling about in this stupid argument, I do want to point out that this analogy is wrong. I really wish people would stop comparing software to cars, or buildings, or anything else that's engineered.

The people who design a car know everything that will go into that car. They can choose the exact specification of every part, and can thus determine how everything should work together. The same goes for buildings, bridges, etc. Do you think an engineer just designs a bridge, and then that is used wherever? Of course not - a bridge is designed for a specific location, and the engineer must know all the variables that will affect the bridge.

A computer system is entirely different. Civ4 could be running on dozens of different CPUs, dozens of different video cards, etc. There are multiple OSes it could be running on, with many smaller variations (what patches are installed, etc.). Many different driver version, and other software may also have an effect (especially if the user's computer is loaded with spyware).

The fact is that while an engineer gets to build a complete entity to a very rigorous specification, Civ4 is designed to run on a simply vast number of configurations.

The same applies to any piece of software. It is simply impossible to write a piece of software for a PC which will take every possible combination into account.

So please stop making such analogies. We programmers will thank you.

For the record, I have not noticed any bugs yet. I do have some significant performance issues, but I expect that's b/c I only have 256 MB of RAM. I'm using an nVidia card though - yay nVidia

 

[Dagoth Ur]

You only have 256mb ram??? Wow I have 512 and I can not imagine playing it on anything lower? Do you just play duel map, 2 civs and all low graphics?

 

[Chayton]

Kinda Funny to see then that Cars always more tend to have "bugs" and are recalled. I would be more worried about that as about a computer game, after all the game cost me 50 bucks while a car cost me 3000+ bucks and that a game having a problem will never cost any lifes, while image the brakes have a problem at a car.

And why should a company recall a game?? A game doesnt have to return to the developers in order to be fixed, just get the patches, while a car having a problem obivously need to be fixed by expert, thats why they recall it, hardly possible that when the brake has a problem, you get the brake just double click it and it fixes itself If that would be possible thought, i doubt the car companies would recall their cars, they would just work like the gaming industry does.

 

[meowsqueak]

All this moaning is just encouraging developers to abandon the PC as a significant games platform and move their development effort to consoles (which is several orders of magnitude easier to work with, since the goalposts are firmly rooted in one place).

I implore you all - if you do not want this to happen, then please, as a matter of principle, stop complaining (about this). Post-release patches are unfortunately an unavoidable part of modern PC games - live with it or stop buying them.

But by all means complain if the patch(es) are insufficient. Just don't moan about the fact patches exist and releases get rushed out for holiday periods.

 

[Dida]

I swapped map with my friendly ally the Incans, the game became very slow, the screen then went black, the game then crashes to desktop. Please fix this. I cannot believe how buggy this game is.

 

[Dida]

All this moaning is just encouraging developers to abandon the PC as a significant games platform and move their development effort to consoles (which is several orders of magnitude easier to work with, since the goalposts are firmly rooted in one place).

I implore you all - if you do not want this to happen, then please, as a matter of principle, stop complaining (about this). Post-release patches are unfortunately an unavoidable part of modern PC games - live with it or stop buying them.

But by all means complain if the patch(es) are insufficient. Just don't moan about the fact patches exist and releases get rushed out for holiday periods.

For our own good, we are supposed to stop complainting about something that is obviously broken huh?

 

[rob.derosa]

the culprit is software that is clearly in PRE-release quality format.

how come it works like a charm on my computer then

nothing at all wrong with the software in my eyes.

and. you hadnt seen your bios for 6 weeks. so you left a windows machine running for 6 weeks.... HAHA no wonder your having so much problems.

 

[meowsqueak]

For our own good, we are supposed to stop complainting about something that is obviously broken huh?

That's not what I was saying - please read my post again, esp. the last bit.

(I don't think it's wrong to complain about specific bugs - I was saying it's a bad idea to complain about the state of the PC games industry yet do nothing to try and change the situation).

 

[varradami]

You only have 256mb ram??? Wow I have 512 and I can not imagine playing it on anything lower? Do you just play duel map, 2 civs and all low graphics?

Nope, I'm currently playing a game on a standard map. Though there's only one other civ on my continent, so maybe that helps. Total commit charge was running between 500 and 550.

I'm not afraid of upgrading my computer - only a few parts of this computer are the same as when I assembled it 5 years ago. I just haven't needed more than 256 MB. Only other computer games I play regularly are WarCraft3 and Wesnoth. I don't use WinXP either, since I don't like it. I use Linux primarily, but dual-boot with Win2k for games. Most of my gaming is on my GameCube anyway (or as I like to call it, my Magic Killing Box).

There really isn't any excuse to be using anything less than 512 MB of RAM or a decent video card w/ 128 MB of RAM. Expect to pay ~ $40 for either of those things from NewEgg (I buy all my hardware from them - good prices and good service). I just ordered a stick of DDR 333, CL 2.5, 512 MB (Kingston), for ~$40. That's less than I paid for Civ4.

I'm hoping the extra RAM will do a lot to alleviate my performance problems. The game is certainly playable, but I had to get used to there being a 1 second delay between trying to scroll and the screen actually scrolling.

 

[upstart]

This continues to be the heart of the idiocy for many. First off, many of the people with problems are laptop people or otherwise can't just "spring 50 bucks" to fix the problem.

But more important continues to be the "gamer" crowd insulting long-time Civ players with such ignorance. While it may be your aspiration in life, believe it or not, many Civ players have *no interest whatsoever* in being included in the "gamer" crowd. In fact, many of us play Civ precisely because it is (or used to be) different than "gamer" games.

If you don't understand why there is whining from these people, then you probably just hopped on the Civ IV bandwagon and don't get the legacy of the Civ franchise. Many people have been loyal to Civ for *years*, and in my view they are entitled to voice their displeasure with the decision to move the game more towards "gamers" than ensuring that all the loyal fans would be able to play on their laptops or whatever.

And just to add as disclaimers: I am not trying to offend gamers. I have nothing against them, I don't consider myself better than them in any way, I'm just offering a different perspective. Nor am I trying to insinuate all players of Civ IV now have to be "gamers". The great majority of the old Civ community will move on to Civ IV, it just would be nice if they patched the game to allow the laptop/non-T&L crowd too as well.

actually ive played civ1 back in 93, civ2 when it came out and civ3 when it came out as well...but ok, guess im not part of the civ crowd according to you, because i play some other games as well and upgrade computers more than every 5 yrs. and its funny how you 'civ loyalists' jumped so quickly on the "bash civIV for all its worth" bandwagon immediately either because a.it didnt fit in with the series(it didnt just clone the same gameplay) or b. it didnt run on your systems. way to show your loyality there. also you ppl seem to want to categorize everyone with hardware made in the past couple yrs as elitist snobs however you are doing the exact same by claiming you know the series better than all us 'idiots' out there. hypocritical much?

 

[Strongunit]

and am extremely disapointed that anyone would treat the Civ heritage so carelessly by selling a program so full of problems like spontaneous crashing and rebooting. (I was always looking a reason to stop playing this franchise after wasting of 1000's of hours of my life on them).

 

[CultureShock]

Not at all. He followed the instructions on their website and it killed his computer. That is totally unacceptable. He could probably sue them for the cost of buying Windows XP and win.

It didn't "kill" his computer. Do you have any idea how many times I've re-installed Windows XP? Keep your information handy and you won't have this problem. Worst case scenario, he has to call Microsoft and they'll ask him some simple questions to make sure he's not installing it on multiple PCs and they'll give him a new authorization code. It takes maybe 10 minutes.

It's unfortunate, yes, but in this case, it's a Windows thing, not Firaxis or 2k Games. Stop being so litigious.

 

[Venger]

how come it works like a charm on my computer then

Well then that settles it, doesn't it? No patch needed everyone - someone call Firaxis and give the guys the week off, it runs like a charm for Rob...

nothing at all wrong with the software in my eyes.

So one would wonder why you are participating in this thread...

and. you hadnt seen your bios for 6 weeks. so you left a windows machine running for 6 weeks.... HAHA no wonder your having so much problems.

I wonder if you know how outright foolish you sound. Why would you say something so ignorant? According to your ill-considered logic, my problems should clear up then with a reboot, shouldn't they?

I better get all four score of my clients to start rebooting their servers nightly, since obviously leaving them up is going to cause random crashing and such... and imagine how miraculous it's been that the computer was able to run all sorts of programs - everything from Treo sync software to Office to Firefox to all sorts of games and other utilities without your expert advice of rebooting often - clearly Civ4 was just the straw breaking the camels back, huh?

Some bulbs are dimmer than others, and some are just burned out...

Venger

 

[webhsu]

what's up with all this hate?

Look what a bad release causes....

is this the root of all evil?